Ongoing Violence & Riots in France
Ted said:
I'm not talking about the caucasian European radicals themselves, theres nothing you can do about that.
I'm talking about the immigration problem that is getting out of hand and causing a culture clash of civilizations with no end in sight.
Once the Muslims are nationalized citizens of that country, you can no longer deport them that obvious.
They need to deport those who are non-citizens, only keeping those who have a good legitimate reason to be there (such as filling a labor shortage, or skill shortage, ect).
They need to have severe restrition or even a complete ban for all Muslim who want to imigrate to the country (really they don't need anymore).
If they go there for ligitimate work purposes, they may not take their families with them, ensuring they will go back.
Deport and renounce citizenship to all Mullahs who even avocate radicalism in the slightest. keep them all monitored.
Have strict and enforced integration policies that force the school children to adapt to their host countries ways. Violation can come with the penalty of deportation or citizenship revokation.
Its not an easy thing to do, people will really have to get tough on this, its the only way.
I myself don't know if Europe really has the backbone to actually implement the things that need to get done.
If not within 50 year or even less Europe as we know it will disapear. This may just happen in your lifetime.
This is not just Hollands problem but all of Europe's.
5.56X45mm said:
I know what you are saying. France had it coming.
All the stuff that France did all those years to gain the favor of the Muslims, and make themselves popular with the Muslims, especially in opposing the US in Iraq.
It didnt do 'em one bit of good.
The cultural rift is so great and so completely at odds with the European lifestyle that the Muslims will always see them as infidels no matter what. I hope France learns it lesson after this.
Just because you do the popular thing doesn't mean its the right thing.
bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsA..._RTRUKOC_0_US-FRANCE-RIOTS.xml&archived=False
The response of the French government to this man made disaster makes the US FEMA's response to Katrina seem quite rapid and a success beyond measure by comparison.
The response of the French government to this man made disaster makes the US FEMA's response to Katrina seem quite rapid and a success beyond measure by comparison.
mmarsh
Active member
I just don't accept the fact that France treats its Muslims bad. You can be sure that Muslims have far more rights and privilages here in France than a French Catholic would have in the ME, provided the Islamic fanatics didnt kill him first.
Like the US, France has had alot of immigrants. But not all immigrants have acted this bad. For example of the largest population in Paris is Vietnamese/Chinese. Now they generally keep to themselves but they dont cause trouble and they dont shout racism whenever they dont't get their way. Some people on the left would say would some degree of truth that the vietnamese is an example of intergration working. They attend French Schools, speak the language, many are catholics, drink wine, pay taxes, work at French jobs, etc. Same could be said of other groups such as people from Indonisia (whom are Muslim), the Phillippeans, etc.
On the other hand, immigrants from Algeria or the Middle East have had problems intergrating not only in France, but in the UK, Germany, in the Netherlands, and I believe Italy as well. But speaking just for France, why does it work for the Vietnamese and not for Arabs/Africans?
Like the US, France has had alot of immigrants. But not all immigrants have acted this bad. For example of the largest population in Paris is Vietnamese/Chinese. Now they generally keep to themselves but they dont cause trouble and they dont shout racism whenever they dont't get their way. Some people on the left would say would some degree of truth that the vietnamese is an example of intergration working. They attend French Schools, speak the language, many are catholics, drink wine, pay taxes, work at French jobs, etc. Same could be said of other groups such as people from Indonisia (whom are Muslim), the Phillippeans, etc.
On the other hand, immigrants from Algeria or the Middle East have had problems intergrating not only in France, but in the UK, Germany, in the Netherlands, and I believe Italy as well. But speaking just for France, why does it work for the Vietnamese and not for Arabs/Africans?
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
I think I can contribute on this very smart comment of Mmarsh, as I lived with an Arab and I have friends from a lot of countries who live here. I'm pretty busy right now but will get back here in a couple of hours.
It is a bit more complicated. In Holland the different schools can make different policy. There are some of these foundations that have banned the flag, because more and more Dutch neo-nazi's started to wear them. They do this as a countermeasure because the Marrocans wear their flag, the Surinams wear theirs and the Turks theirs. Since they don't ban those flags you can safely say that this is again a good example of PC.
I sometimes wore Lonsdale clothing to get a discussion started on this topic. If you ban a flag, you've got to ban 'm all! That's my opinion...
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
Ted said:
Once again the Netherlands is a great example of successful integration, isn't it?
bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
This all sounds very similar to the gangs of Southern California all "flying their colours". Gee, and Europe was so keen to tell the US just how much more close to Utopia they were... pardon me now while I go and reconsider the origins of the universe as this has shaken my faith in humanity.
:lol:
:lol:
mmarsh
Active member
Bulldogg
I wouldnt call Europe a Utopia, but it is true that the poor and middle class have certain advanteges that dont exsist in the USA. Full Health care, 5 weeks paid vacation, better unemployment benefits, etc. This is why I have a hard time accepting the 'poor us' excuse, It may not be 100% fair, but they have it alot better than most other places.
Here's a thought, my father brought up.
The cars that are being burned. Whose cars are they? Not mine, I dont park over there, nor does anyone else except the people that live there. So that means they are setting fire to their own property. How smart is that? :lol:
I wouldnt call Europe a Utopia, but it is true that the poor and middle class have certain advanteges that dont exsist in the USA. Full Health care, 5 weeks paid vacation, better unemployment benefits, etc. This is why I have a hard time accepting the 'poor us' excuse, It may not be 100% fair, but they have it alot better than most other places.
Here's a thought, my father brought up.
The cars that are being burned. Whose cars are they? Not mine, I dont park over there, nor does anyone else except the people that live there. So that means they are setting fire to their own property. How smart is that? :lol:
That sounds logical mmarsh.
And on the remarks regarding the US. There's a book called "Un-dutchables" and that gives great inside into the mind and behaviour of the Dutch. We are good at pointing our fingers at others, but we have a hard time looking at ourselves.
But IG, you have to agree that integration doesn't mean that you have to forget your heritage. When I lived in the States I had many shirts with Holland printed on them. But I reckon I was totally assimilated with everybody else, spoke the language fluently and all... So national awareness (or even some nationalism) isn't the same as a multicultural downfall. You need that to make it happen, but they aren't the same.
And on the remarks regarding the US. There's a book called "Un-dutchables" and that gives great inside into the mind and behaviour of the Dutch. We are good at pointing our fingers at others, but we have a hard time looking at ourselves.
But IG, you have to agree that integration doesn't mean that you have to forget your heritage. When I lived in the States I had many shirts with Holland printed on them. But I reckon I was totally assimilated with everybody else, spoke the language fluently and all... So national awareness (or even some nationalism) isn't the same as a multicultural downfall. You need that to make it happen, but they aren't the same.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
Or differently put, they are setting fire to cars belonging to the other honest immigrants or poor people. Goes to show how little they care about the poor and how little it is related to poverty itself.
Back to Mmarsh's comment:
I have lived with two Muslim Moroccans, with an Atheist Albanian, with a Muslim Albanian, with a Christian black Ivorian, with an Ukrainian, a Slovakian, a Serb, and some Western European guys along with a lot of Italians, of course. Some of them are still good pals of mine, specially the Ivorian one, an Albanian and a Moroccan.
I observe the reality around me.
Here in Italy Asians (mainly Indians, Chinese and Filipinoes) don't have great problems of integration: They hardly speak Italian themselves or to each other, but you can see them trying hard to speak Italian to their kids, and put them into Italian schools. They try hard to make life easier for their kids than it has been for them, specially Indians. Their kids don't make too much trouble at schools either.
The Slavs and Albanians now. For a long time Slavs and Albanians were considered a danger, bad people, and actually a lot of them were caught and trapped in criminal networks: Prostitution, racketing, smaller crime, drug trafficking, robberies. Anyways the overwhelming majority of them doesn't pose any problem to us, they learn to speak Italian and you can easily relate to them although, of course, many differences persist. Btw many among them are right-winging because they come from Communist countries.
Muslim Turks are average integrated. They can speak our language, open their traditional stores, but are not as numerous as they are in Germany or France.
The blacks, now. Either Muslim or Christian, Italians have learned to like and appreciate the Africans' hard work and honesty. We all respect them and racist episodes were always extremely rare. They learn Italian surprisingly soon and well, and you can really often see their kids playing with Italian kids and the blacks speaking with a regional accent at times stronger than the Italians. The blacks respect their women, look clean and people would say "they're just like us". I'd say the most successfully integrated groups. Even Muslim blacks never made religion an issue, they alwys endorsed their calm and peaceful and open-minded interpretation of the Koran. African blacks don't like the Arabs and their fanatic approach to religion. They tend to address the Arabs as "deceitful and racist people".
The Arabs now. This is the point Mmarsh raises.
Yes, the Arabs are different. Most of the Arabs I know broadly agree with Bin Laden's instances, support kamikaze attacks in Israel and consider the Jews a really evil people. You can never relate to these fanatics. Moderate Arabs, such as my friend Abdul, complain about this, because he says they provoke a racist reaction in people, and make ALL of them look like terrorists or terrorism supporters or fanatics or "enemies". Unfortunately moderate Arabs like Abdul are very rare, and few of them would accept to consider the Jews "human" or the Americans "friendly people".
The Arabs have come from Northern Africa seeking for jobs, but brought in all their cultural background: Their women are hardly seen around, they spend their time hanging around and often harassing girls, they get around in groups, only male (opposite of blacks, whose wives are always with them, and of Indians or Chinese, whose wives and kids are always around them). Being only males (most of them leave wives back home, or are single) of course changes their way of relating to the new country: It will never be their own country since their families are elsewhere, they will not be encouraged to settle down and get a house in a nice neighborhood where their kids can make friends and be happy. No, that's a total different approach that they have. Their kids in school put alot of problems, since they refuse the food they're given, don't accept to see crosses, or want Arabic classes and so on.
I've seen it with my own eyes. One of the Moroccans I lived with was a Muslim fanatic, he agreed with everything Bin Laden said, called for "death of America" (literal words) and destruction of Israel every other minute, admired the "martyrs". I remember he and his friends cheering at the Twin Towers collapsing in front of TV on 9/11, while the rest of world was recoiling in horror.
He would always point at girls in miniskirt in July saying how immoral it would be, and how a bomb that killed thousands of people would be better than that. And he had a lot of friends who thought that same way.
I believe the Arab culture has a large background of racism, and a lot of Arabs are racist towards the Jews (of course) and towards the infidels. Speaking to a Muslim from Bangladesh, he said that the Arabs are deceitful and crazy, and their fanatical approach to religion is extremely distant from theirs (although he would endorse a lot of conspiracy theories).
As the Arabs look down on our multicultural society and all its horrors (woman's equality, gays are not jailed, Jews can freely talk, and other terrible features of our impure countries- they call all that "jayliah", barbarianism) they refuse to be assimilated, they don't want to be integrated in a community they despise. One of the charges they move to the US is that a society where "negroes live next to whites" can't be pure, hence no good could possibly come from that.
I'm talking about the majority of them, given my experience. Those are not a minority.
Back to Mmarsh's comment:
mmarsh said:
I have lived with two Muslim Moroccans, with an Atheist Albanian, with a Muslim Albanian, with a Christian black Ivorian, with an Ukrainian, a Slovakian, a Serb, and some Western European guys along with a lot of Italians, of course. Some of them are still good pals of mine, specially the Ivorian one, an Albanian and a Moroccan.
I observe the reality around me.
Here in Italy Asians (mainly Indians, Chinese and Filipinoes) don't have great problems of integration: They hardly speak Italian themselves or to each other, but you can see them trying hard to speak Italian to their kids, and put them into Italian schools. They try hard to make life easier for their kids than it has been for them, specially Indians. Their kids don't make too much trouble at schools either.
The Slavs and Albanians now. For a long time Slavs and Albanians were considered a danger, bad people, and actually a lot of them were caught and trapped in criminal networks: Prostitution, racketing, smaller crime, drug trafficking, robberies. Anyways the overwhelming majority of them doesn't pose any problem to us, they learn to speak Italian and you can easily relate to them although, of course, many differences persist. Btw many among them are right-winging because they come from Communist countries.
Muslim Turks are average integrated. They can speak our language, open their traditional stores, but are not as numerous as they are in Germany or France.
The blacks, now. Either Muslim or Christian, Italians have learned to like and appreciate the Africans' hard work and honesty. We all respect them and racist episodes were always extremely rare. They learn Italian surprisingly soon and well, and you can really often see their kids playing with Italian kids and the blacks speaking with a regional accent at times stronger than the Italians. The blacks respect their women, look clean and people would say "they're just like us". I'd say the most successfully integrated groups. Even Muslim blacks never made religion an issue, they alwys endorsed their calm and peaceful and open-minded interpretation of the Koran. African blacks don't like the Arabs and their fanatic approach to religion. They tend to address the Arabs as "deceitful and racist people".
The Arabs now. This is the point Mmarsh raises.
Yes, the Arabs are different. Most of the Arabs I know broadly agree with Bin Laden's instances, support kamikaze attacks in Israel and consider the Jews a really evil people. You can never relate to these fanatics. Moderate Arabs, such as my friend Abdul, complain about this, because he says they provoke a racist reaction in people, and make ALL of them look like terrorists or terrorism supporters or fanatics or "enemies". Unfortunately moderate Arabs like Abdul are very rare, and few of them would accept to consider the Jews "human" or the Americans "friendly people".
The Arabs have come from Northern Africa seeking for jobs, but brought in all their cultural background: Their women are hardly seen around, they spend their time hanging around and often harassing girls, they get around in groups, only male (opposite of blacks, whose wives are always with them, and of Indians or Chinese, whose wives and kids are always around them). Being only males (most of them leave wives back home, or are single) of course changes their way of relating to the new country: It will never be their own country since their families are elsewhere, they will not be encouraged to settle down and get a house in a nice neighborhood where their kids can make friends and be happy. No, that's a total different approach that they have. Their kids in school put alot of problems, since they refuse the food they're given, don't accept to see crosses, or want Arabic classes and so on.
I've seen it with my own eyes. One of the Moroccans I lived with was a Muslim fanatic, he agreed with everything Bin Laden said, called for "death of America" (literal words) and destruction of Israel every other minute, admired the "martyrs". I remember he and his friends cheering at the Twin Towers collapsing in front of TV on 9/11, while the rest of world was recoiling in horror.
He would always point at girls in miniskirt in July saying how immoral it would be, and how a bomb that killed thousands of people would be better than that. And he had a lot of friends who thought that same way.
I believe the Arab culture has a large background of racism, and a lot of Arabs are racist towards the Jews (of course) and towards the infidels. Speaking to a Muslim from Bangladesh, he said that the Arabs are deceitful and crazy, and their fanatical approach to religion is extremely distant from theirs (although he would endorse a lot of conspiracy theories).
As the Arabs look down on our multicultural society and all its horrors (woman's equality, gays are not jailed, Jews can freely talk, and other terrible features of our impure countries- they call all that "jayliah", barbarianism) they refuse to be assimilated, they don't want to be integrated in a community they despise. One of the charges they move to the US is that a society where "negroes live next to whites" can't be pure, hence no good could possibly come from that.
I'm talking about the majority of them, given my experience. Those are not a minority.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
Yeah, I guess you can find idiots pretty much anywhere.
mmarsh
Active member
Italian guy
Good Post.
1. Not too many Turks here, they generally prefer Germany. Most Muslims come from Algeria and the ME.
2. Africans are a mix. Some are intergrated, others are not. I'd say they are SLOWLY intergrating, but its not as fast as the Vietnamese. To be fair, most of the Africans haven't been here quite as long.
3. Is it that moderate arabs are rare, or is it that they are not speaking up? I get the impression that they are initmated by the pro-radical people. The problem in France, is that people (espically Arab women) are forced to obey strict muslim laws in the muslim communities. Even if they are not practicing muslims. If they refuse (such as wear a veil) it can result to verbal harrassment and sometimes physical violence. Again this goes back to a policing problem as the government is too afraid to enforce FRENCH law in muslim communites. So Sheria law rules instead.
I had a Algerian collegue during 9/11 he didnt like American Foreign Policy and although he strongly disagreed with the Bin Laden Ideology he sort of fell into the theory that '9/11 was a CIA plot'. They do love their conspiracy theories in that part of the world.
Good Post.
1. Not too many Turks here, they generally prefer Germany. Most Muslims come from Algeria and the ME.
2. Africans are a mix. Some are intergrated, others are not. I'd say they are SLOWLY intergrating, but its not as fast as the Vietnamese. To be fair, most of the Africans haven't been here quite as long.
3. Is it that moderate arabs are rare, or is it that they are not speaking up? I get the impression that they are initmated by the pro-radical people. The problem in France, is that people (espically Arab women) are forced to obey strict muslim laws in the muslim communities. Even if they are not practicing muslims. If they refuse (such as wear a veil) it can result to verbal harrassment and sometimes physical violence. Again this goes back to a policing problem as the government is too afraid to enforce FRENCH law in muslim communites. So Sheria law rules instead.
I had a Algerian collegue during 9/11 he didnt like American Foreign Policy and although he strongly disagreed with the Bin Laden Ideology he sort of fell into the theory that '9/11 was a CIA plot'. They do love their conspiracy theories in that part of the world.
Italian Guy
Milforum Hitman
I'd say moderate Arabs are like 30 % of the total, that's my impression, although I see very few of them speaking up. But I think the majority of them silently agrees with the fanatics and their theories.
If you have some Arab friends, ask them what they think about the Jews. I didn't say Israelis, I said Jews.
If you have some Arab friends, ask them what they think about the Jews. I didn't say Israelis, I said Jews.
Whispering Death
Active member
mmarsh said:
But the 'poor and middle class' in America have certain advantages too, like a job! It doesn't matter how much vacation time you've got if 10% of the population is on a permanent vacation.
By the way, I find it interesting that France has arrested nearly as many people in 12 days as America has lost in Iraq in 2 1/2 years.
mmarsh
Active member
Whispering
You are wrong there. I don't consider having a job (and in some cases several jobs) which doesnt pay your cost of living (talking the basics necessities) as 'employment'. I went to school in the Mid-West there were people who had upto 3 minimum wage jobs, and were still getting evicted. In Europe the unemployments benefits are not wonderful, but it does pay your rent, food and bills. You'll at least survive, there is a real security net.
Here's what happen to me. I lost my job a few years ago just after the tech bubble burst. I was a certified computer engineer. Had a taken a job at McD's or like (which I did consider) I would have lost my apartment, and been forced into bankruptcy. Instead I stayed on unemployment, used the time to find a better job, (took a class in between, also on the governments bill) that actually fit my skills and was back to work in 8 months with no loss. There was alot of stress as I was strapped for cash, but I never was in serious danger. Tell me honestly, which system do you prefer?
These immigrants have the same unemployment right I was entitled to, so the claims of being treated unfair is wasted on me. The government will even pay for training on new job skills. There is no excuse.
You are wrong there. I don't consider having a job (and in some cases several jobs) which doesnt pay your cost of living (talking the basics necessities) as 'employment'. I went to school in the Mid-West there were people who had upto 3 minimum wage jobs, and were still getting evicted. In Europe the unemployments benefits are not wonderful, but it does pay your rent, food and bills. You'll at least survive, there is a real security net.
Here's what happen to me. I lost my job a few years ago just after the tech bubble burst. I was a certified computer engineer. Had a taken a job at McD's or like (which I did consider) I would have lost my apartment, and been forced into bankruptcy. Instead I stayed on unemployment, used the time to find a better job, (took a class in between, also on the governments bill) that actually fit my skills and was back to work in 8 months with no loss. There was alot of stress as I was strapped for cash, but I never was in serious danger. Tell me honestly, which system do you prefer?
These immigrants have the same unemployment right I was entitled to, so the claims of being treated unfair is wasted on me. The government will even pay for training on new job skills. There is no excuse.
mmarsh said:
I totally agree with you here.
Even the poor Muslims in France are better off than the average Muslim from North Africa or most of the Middle East.
Thats why I think poverty is not the real issue here, in fact most of the stuanches fanatics are well to do.
mmarsh said:
Simple.
I've been saying this a long time now, but its the religion.
The Muslim religion as far as majority of it goes, is simply and totaly incompatible with modern Western society.
Vietnamese, Filipinos, ect, are from Christian based religions. They will get along somewhat well with any Western culture since its roots are originate from Christianity, giving a similar vein to follow and adapt to, or simply get along with. Same with the Mexicans here in the US there is no harsh culture clash.
The Muslim religion is completley different it is at odds with Western society. I've been studying and trying to understand aspects of Islam for about 4 years now, I'll tell you the mindset is worlds apart. They do not think like us at all, most Westerners absolutely fail to understand this. Westerners try to come up with reasonings from a Western point of view as to why Muslims do what they do---it just won't work. Futhermore you cannot use logic and try modern reasoning with them either.
The only way this can change is if a sweeping change of mindset were to occur throughout the Muslim world there are some Muslims trying to do this but its an uphill battle and I don't know if they will succeed.
