Israel , America or palestine is terriost ?

[Cartman]

Tell the truth, Delbot made an outrageously stupid statement to which the answer was both simple and extremely obvious. When confronted with this fact in Montys answer you suddenly state that it is taken "out of context"

It has already been pointed out that in the case of Gaza any leaflets telling people to leave, would actually cause more casualties, as it drives them out into the open where there was a far greater danger from shrapnel, white phosphorus and stray (and deliberately aimed) small arms fire.

So you can forget any claims that Israel does not deliberately target civilians, it has both been admitted by them and observed by others. (The Dahiya Doctrine)

no there isnt any risk from anything if they leave the house. so you are saying its better to them to stay inside the house which is about the get bombed than go out and get away from it? well you saw what happened to 160 people who did that.

and udaka, you are not speaking for the entire asian people. you put out only your opinion. personally ive met asian people and there is a family in my gym who are half asian half israeli and all of them look like they dont share your opinion.

 

[senojekips]

no there isnt any risk from anything if they leave the house. so you are saying its better to them to stay inside the house which is about the get bombed than go out and get away from it? well you saw what happened to 160 people who did that.

Tell me of one example where it is better to be fired on out in the open, than remaining under cover. Fcuk off you idiot, you are not telling stories to your schoolyard mates here.

One half Asian family LOL,.... is that the same as two, quarter Asian families, or four, one eighth Asian families? You are a certifiable idiot, I think that Udaka may have met more than one (half) Asian family in his lifetime.

 

[Del Boy]

Now how about answering the question rather than taking us off on the usual tangent, you have 1.7 million people bottled up in an area just over half the size of New Zealand largest city what exactly does notifying them do and given that the area is sealed off where do they go?

as I pointed out Auckland is the largest and most congested city we have at 2700 people per sqkm2 an area with more people and less size must therefore have a greater population density.

Well now - you have failed to answer my question re. the All Blacks.
BUT - I will happily answer yours, here and now. I have waited patiently for both you and Tweedledum to commit yourselves by digging an ever deeper hole.

Before I do, what is all this nonsense about me taking you off at a usual tangent; what are you blabbering about; I am always direct and honest and I never have felt that I needed let you and Tweedledum off the hook by diversion. What you really mean is that when you cannot respond to any degree you creep off to lick your wounds.

Now then, Tweedledee, We have had the usual diversion from you with sets of figures aimed at boring your opponents into submission , or sending them to sleep.

You have produced your figures bent on establishing that there is not an inch of room left in Gaza for civilians et all to put one foot in front of the other to defend themselves. Congratulations for making the point strongly ; protection should be provided by Hamas as Israel does for its inhabitants.

If your figures are correct, how the hell does Israel, under massive missile attack, manage to restrict civilian casualties to 160???

You make a very good case for the care Israel takes to avoid harming Arab civilians, this whilst trying to defend themselves against continual rocket attack.

Obviously the care Israel takes saves many, many lives , establishing that their care with warnings WORKS; and works very well indeed. Only 160!!
On one side Israel, trying to defend civilian residents of Gaza; on the other a rabid dog syndrom aimed at killing as many Jews as possible putting thousands and thousands under genocidal agenda.

Israel's policy of trying always to restrict casualties actually is to recommended - it works- they defend Gaza civilians , whilst Hamas does not. In fact we saw the real face of Hamas in his speech just this week.
Genocidal threats.

For once again trying to avoid as much damage to Gaza civilians as possible, Israel, take a bow on this one; your care highlighted by Monty B's figures.Thank you for that Tweedledee.

I am queueing to find a space to post other responses to Tweedledee and Tweedledum, which I am
keen to deal with.

 

[Cartman]

Tell me of one example where it is better to be fired on out in the open, than remaining under cover. Fcuk off you idiot, you are not telling stories to your schoolyard mates here.

One half Asian family LOL,.... is that the same as two, quarter Asian families, or four, one eighth Asian families? You are a certifiable idiot, I think that Udaka may have met more than one (half) Asian family in his lifetime.

you have shown your true colors...
when they arent being shot at, and their cover is the targeted building, thats right there the best situation when its better to be in the open than take cover in a targeted building.

and stop taking my words out of context, half asian family isnt the only asians ive met... and thats not the point here

 

[Del Boy]

Time for the bifocals to get an upgrade I think as I answered your question in the first line of the previous post and I am sure you can google it just as fast as I can.

Now come on we are starting that spiral again and I have already mentioned that I am not going to let you do that again, as for your math question well even you know that it is unanswerable and in fact I am not even convinced it is a question more a philosophical conundrum for idiots as the answer can be any number from none to 1.7 million.

What the hell are you talking about? You have tried to avoid answering a
perfectly legitimate , straight forward,question re. the recent confrontation of Hamas and Israel.

Obviously the most important aspect of this is, as always, the question of proportionality. You have been asked your position on this and you have ducked and dodged, to the extent of slagging the question just because you cannot handle it. What did you call it ; 'philosophical conundrum for idiots' but you cannot handle it!!
Allow me to enlighten you once more:-

In this confrontation we had Israel accused of disproportionality, with 11 or so Israeli victims and 160 Hamas victims. As always, Israel took all the precautions it could to avoid civilian casualties in Gaza ; any casualties were unintentional and completely untargetted; civilians were also warned of its targets. So -160.

On the other hand, Hamas rained thousands of rockets over this short period, hundreds every and night. These were targetted to kill as many civilians as possible - a deliberate policy of genocide intention.

They failed because Israel defended its people.

You were invited to discuss this. You failed to do so. You could not even comment.

So much for disproportionality! On one side Hamas's sworn aim to kill as many thousands of Israelis as possible in a few days. Intention to kill thousands. Genocidal intent.

Israel carefully picking targets and warning civilians away from those targets . Intention to avoid any civilian casualties.

You were invited to comment or discuss. Answer came there none!

So you choose to try to denigrate the important and legitimate question which defeated you.

I did say cut the b/s.

 

[senojekips]

you have shown your true colors...
when they arent being shot at, and their cover is the targeted building, thats right there the best situation when its better to be in the open than take cover in a targeted building.

and stop taking my words out of context, half asian family isnt the only asians ive met... and thats not the point here

My true colours? WTF are you talking about?

If they aren't being shot at, they aren't in danger. Or are you trying to say that the IDF had targeted every building in Gaza. Killing buildings is not the point you flipdick, they target the buildings to kill the people in them or are you trying to say that by getting the people into the streets they could be killed easier by using White Phosphorus and shrapnel? Your stupid argument is self defeating.

Which brings us back to the pont about your filthy lying government who denied even using White Phosphorus at all, until Haaretz published photos of IDF artillery men sitting with fused WP shells.

You see, you are just telling all the same lies that have been uncovered before. You can run, but you can't hide from the truth.

 

[hamidreza]

One question out of this thread. One of my friends was in South Africa four month ago and he told me somethings strange about Jews living there.
He told me the South Africa's Jews don't pay any task and also the diamond trade is only in Jews hand %100 monopoly. I became surprised when I heard that.
are they claim they have holy wall there or their ancestors lived there before?

 

[MontyB]

You were invited to comment or discuss. Answer came there none!

So you choose to try to denigrate the important and legitimate question which defeated you.

I did say cut the b/s.

Sorry what was the question, was it:
A) What was the rugby score.
or
B) If all the Palestinians had rushed outside how many would have died.

The answer to both questions is I don't know as I mentioned in every post since, I am sorry you are having trouble understanding this, you recycle the same sad sorry nonsense over and over, your posts jump around like a mad woman on hot coals and then you repeat your self getting more and more abusive because people don't agree with you until a thread gets locked all because you cant get your own way.

Well as I said in the past we all know this tactic now and the easiest way to combat this is to not respond, if you want to know a rugby score google it you can do that just as well as I can so it isn't up to me to do your work for you.

As for the rest well I know I would have a better shot at converting Al Qaeda to Christianity than getting a structured post from you to reply to.

 

[udaka]

As for the White phosphorus weapons, I look for some data from internet.

White phosphorus is a spontaneous combustion, its ignition was 40 ° C, but the heat generated by friction or slow oxidation is possible so that the local temperature reaches 40 ° C and combustion. Therefore, we can not say that white phosphorus is not spontaneous combustion temperature below 40 ℃.
White phosphorus is a highly toxic substance. The toxic dose are 15mg, lethal dose of 50 mg. Constant inhalation of phosphorus vapor can cause bronchitis, pneumonia, and severe bone damage.
White phosphorus shells very danger, if it hits an object and continue to burn until extinguished, when white phosphorus burning contact with human body, the skin will be penetrated and then deep into the bone.So this weapon is forbid use for war in many countries.
White phosphorus of chemical principles(Omitted)


　　
The investigation report of the WHO said found many burn patients by white phosphorus weapons.In Israeli launch Cast lead operation!
If Israeli use this weapon attack Palastain is true ,no matter it is Hamas or civilians, that is very devil.


Here is a link some people who dead under the white phosphorus weapon.(Be careful,very horrable!)

http://bbs.hebei.com.cn/thread-1341334-1-1.html

Which brings us back to the pont about your filthy lying government who denied even using White Phosphorus at all, until Haaretz published photos of IDF artillery men sitting with fused WP shells.

.

 

[Eden]

Please provide a credible link to show that Udaka's post was in any way incorrect.

Talked about his previous posts.

 

[VDKMS]

So it is your contention that it is some how fairer when shooting fish in a barrel that you notify them beforehand?

Gaza is roughly 40km long and between 6 and 12km wide approximately 360km2 and houses 1.7 million people, the largest city in this country is 1.5 million and 483km2 that equates to 2,700 people per km2

So tell me where are these people going to go in such a small area thanks to the magnanimous Israeli gesture?

Next house will do, Israel uses pin point accuracy and the missiles don't have large warheads. Of course, a block further would be better.

You mean, "You don't have an answer"?

Your ridiculous excuse is the equivalent of telling ten people locked in a broom closet, "Lookout!,... we are about to throw a phosphorus grenade in there in twenty seconds"

Exactly what is the problem with you Israelis, you take money from and then steal the secrets of your one and only real ally and sell them to his enemies, you steal another people's land and kill them for daring to resist, then you tell lies to the International community that are so childishly formulated, as to be ridiculous.

Because you've got the US fooled, you really think that the world is inhabited with idiots, don't you? The fact is, that if the US gave up supporting you, (and it will eventually happen) the Israelis wouldn't have a friend in the world.

That will be interesting,.....

Facts and links please of your accusations.

Do some research with Israeli systems helping the US military.

ITALD - used by the US in the Gulf war and Bosnia
Reactive Armor Tiles - developed by the IDF
Litening - used by the US marines
The Popeye/ HAVE NAP AGM-142 - used on B-52's
and many more.
But also non miltary technology goes from Israel to the US like:
TIME magazine recently called InSightec’s MR Guided Focused Ultrasound (MRgFUS) (FDA approved)one of the 50 best inventions of the year.
Glatiramer acetate (also known as Copolymer 1, Cop-1, or Copaxone - as marketed by Teva Pharmaceuticals) is an immunomodulator drug currently used to treat multiple sclerosis.
Argo Medical Technologies Ltd., an Israeli company that makes devices enabling paraplegics to walk, said Tuesday that it will open its US headquarters in Massachusetts and expects to hire up to 40 people here within the next three to five years.
I'll stop now, to many to list.​

It has already been pointed out that in the case of Gaza any leaflets telling people to leave, would actually cause more casualties, as it drives them out into the open where there was a far greater danger from shrapnel, white phosphorus and stray (and deliberately aimed) small arms fire.

So you can forget any claims that Israel does not deliberately target civilians, it has both been admitted by them and observed by others. (The Dahiya Doctrine)

Show me were it is pointed out (facts plus links please)
Here's mine:

Thousands of Gazans seek shelter after Israeli warning

"A U.N. aid agency says some 10,000 Gazans have sought shelter in U.N.-run schools after the Israeli military dropped leaflets on the territory warning residents of certain areas to evacuate their homes.

Adnan Abu Hassna, spokesman for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, said Wednesday that 12 schools are providing shelter."​

Where are the Hamas shelters????​

Hey ,American and Israeli ,wake up. The people in the world are supporting Palastain people fight for their freedom and independant more and more,Inculde our Aisan people!
In the recent UN General Assembly vote on Palestine--- the Us and Israel was totally isolated with 138 votes for Palestine and 9 with the US ---138 countries support Palastain become observer of the United Nation.
The Palastain will become a country eventually, whether Israel will or not!

NO matter Israeli and USA start their proganda machines cheat Earth people, but the truth not on their side!

May I remind you that only the UN Counsil has the authority to allow new states to the UN? The US will veto any attempt of a Palestinian state that was not negotiated with Israel as stated in the Oslo accords. The Palestinian move in the UN General Assembly was in violation of the Oslo accords.

Please provide a credible link to show that Udaka's post was in any way incorrect.

I'll give you one

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qrTEthcDxs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qrTEthcDxs[/ame]

This would be true had you only fired 1 missile but you launched 1500 attacks (note that is not 1500 missiles it is 1500 individual targets hit) on various targets so the question remains given that the area is a high population density where are they to go given that you attacked 1500 locations in an approx 140sqkm area?

And only 139 deaths, half of them civilians of which certainly some of them will show up later on the Hamas martyr list. This shows how pin point the Israeli attacks were and how efficient they were in warning civilians about upcomming attacks.

Tell me of one example where it is better to be fired on out in the open, than remaining under cover. Fcuk off you idiot, you are not telling stories to your schoolyard mates here.

Under cover in a house that has no shelter and that's going to be bombed is better than 500 yards away from the explosion??? I thought you served in the military. Forgot everything they told you?

My true colours? WTF are you talking about?

If they aren't being shot at, they aren't in danger. Or are you trying to say that the IDF had targeted every building in Gaza. Killing buildings is not the point you flipdick, they target the buildings to kill the people in them or are you trying to say that by getting the people into the streets they could be killed easier by using White Phosphorus and shrapnel? Your stupid argument is self defeating.

Which brings us back to the pont about your filthy lying government who denied even using White Phosphorus at all, until Haaretz published photos of IDF artillery men sitting with fused WP shells.

You see, you are just telling all the same lies that have been uncovered before. You can run, but you can't hide from the truth.

Again you are not telling the truth. Israel used the white phosphorus as allowed by international law of war.

Dear Terrorist Supporters: White Phosphorus is Not an Illegal Weapon

One question out of this thread. One of my friends was in South Africa four month ago and he told me somethings strange about Jews living there.
He told me the South Africa's Jews don't pay any task and also the diamond trade is only in Jews hand %100 monopoly. I became surprised when I heard that.
are they claim they have holy wall there or their ancestors lived there before?

They are doing business over there, like they do in so many other countries. They dont kill other people like terrorists do. Ever wondered why there are problems all over the world with Islamic radicals and not Jews?

 

[senojekips]

Under cover in a house that has no shelter and that's going to be bombed is better than 500 yards away from the explosion??? I thought you served in the military. Forgot everything they told you?

No I've forgotten nothing especially in this case where WP was deliberately being used in residential areas. Also people are at far greater risk of death from shrapnel and deliberate small arms fire in the open. When being attacked, it is normal that you look for shelter, not expose yourself in the open. Obviously you Belgians do it differently.

Again you are not telling the truth. Israel used the white phosphorus as allowed by international law of war.

Again you deliberately avoid what was actually said and attempt to divert the facts. Please quote where I stated the the use of WP is illegal? (although it's use against civilians in this situation amounted to a war crime)

Donatella Rovera, the head of an Amnesty fact-finding mission to southern Israel and Gaza, said: "Israeli forces used white phosphorus and other weapons supplied by the USA to carry out serious violations of international humanitarian law, including war crimes."[41]

What I did imply was that because the Israelis realised the the world was up in arms over their deliberate improper use of this weapon as an antipersonnel weapon designed to cause maximum civilian casualties, (high airburst) in heavily populated residential areas, they immediately denied having used it. This lie was uncovered very quickly and once discovered, they announced an internal inquiry. (We all know about the impartiality of Israeli inquiries don't we)

So if it were not improper to use this weapon, why was it's use denied,... then once the lie was uncovered, an inquiry was announced in a futile attempt to appease world opinion?

 

[Cartman]

My true colours? WTF are you talking about?

If they aren't being shot at, they aren't in danger. Or are you trying to say that the IDF had targeted every building in Gaza. Killing buildings is not the point you flipdick, they target the buildings to kill the people in them or are you trying to say that by getting the people into the streets they could be killed easier by using White Phosphorus and shrapnel? Your stupid argument is self defeating.

Which brings us back to the pont about your filthy lying government who denied even using White Phosphorus at all, until Haaretz published photos of IDF artillery men sitting with fused WP shells.

You see, you are just telling all the same lies that have been uncovered before. You can run, but you can't hide from the truth.

no they dont target building to kill people... they do that to destroy weapons

 

[senojekips]

no they dont target building to kill people... they do that to destroy weapons

I don't know if you are just a child or mildly intellectually handicapped. Exactly how old are you anyway?

So,.. the Israelis distribute a warning so that these alleged "weapons" can be removed to safety?

Secondly, WP is not used to demolish buildings.

Your obvious lack of knowledge, and willingness to tell Israeli lies gets you even further into trouble. Every way you turn you step on your own tongue.

Like all Zionists and supporters, your childish naivety, complete lack of morality and simple minded stupidity, is no less than a gross insult to human the human race.

 

[brinktk]

White Phosphorus is not supposed to be used against people. It it used to screen, since it produces a lot of smoke, and it is also used to spot, since it burns brightly for about 45 seconds. So, if you are trying to register Artillery, it is good to use it. If you are trying to give the grunts some obscuring smoke, or block the enemies view of the battlefield, it can be used for that as well.

BUT, if you are going to use it with a timed fuze...then there is a problem. Timed fuzes mean airbursts. Airbursts mean you're trying to catch a bunch of stuff on fire. We used them in the 2nd battle of Fallujah and we got into a lot of trouble for it.

White phosporous has another effect too. If you use it against buildings, fortifications, and bunkers first, the heat and fumes will force anyone in them to get out of area. They will leave their cover and expose themselves to the open...then you put HE right after you fire the WP and you catch a bunch of people in the open. The insurgents were dug in in Fallujah. We did this very thing to get them out of their holes. It is very effective.

If WP gets on you it is very damaging. It cannot be extinguished with water, fire extinguishers, blankets, etc. You literally have to either dig it out with your fingers or a knife while it burns at 2000 degrees F. Or, you have to pack the wound with mud and take away the oxygen that it is using to burn. But, all you're doing with that method is prolonging the inevitable.

By looking at those ready racks of artillery shells in the picture...I can tell you that from my professional opinion they are doing exactly as I described. There is no other reason they would have THAT many WP prepped with the HE shells.

Are WP shells authoriszed for use? Yes. Otherwise we wouldn't have them. Are WP shells allowed for use in known urban areas where civilians reside? Absolutely not.

 

[Eden]

White Phosphorus is not supposed to be used against people. It it used to screen, since it produces a lot of smoke, and it is also used to spot, since it burns brightly for about 45 seconds. So, if you are trying to register Artillery, it is good to use it. If you are trying to give the grunts some obscuring smoke, or block the enemies view of the battlefield, it can be used for that as well.

BUT, if you are going to use it with a timed fuze...then there is a problem. Timed fuzes mean airbursts. Airbursts mean you're trying to catch a bunch of stuff on fire. We used them in the 2nd battle of Fallujah and we got into a lot of trouble for it.

White phosporous has another effect too. If you use it against buildings, fortifications, and bunkers first, the heat and fumes will force anyone in them to get out of area. They will leave their cover and expose themselves to the open...then you put HE right after you fire the WP and you catch a bunch of people in the open. The insurgents were dug in in Fallujah. We did this very thing to get them out of their holes. It is very effective.

If WP gets on you it is very damaging. It cannot be extinguished with water, fire extinguishers, blankets, etc. You literally have to either dig it out with your fingers or a knife while it burns at 2000 degrees F. Or, you have to pack the wound with mud and take away the oxygen that it is using to burn. But, all you're doing with that method is prolonging the inevitable.

By looking at those ready racks of artillery shells in the picture...I can tell you that from my professional opinion they are doing exactly as I described. There is no other reason they would have THAT many WP prepped with the HE shells.

Are WP shells authoriszed for use? Yes. Otherwise we wouldn't have them. Are WP shells allowed for use in known urban areas where civilians reside? Absolutely not.

Israel didn't used them against civilians.(even that gaza as you know is very small place and not hurting civilians with WP when terrorists are hiding among them is very hard.So i'm not suprised that there were couple of palestnians hit)..I dont think that the idf will use this in gaza again.Seems to be not very effective,in south lebenon i bet we will.

I just hate it when all the israeli haters are trying to dehumanaize us on every little thing.And expects us to not do any mistake at war.Doesn't even make any sense,This double standard just makes me sick.

 

[brinktk]

I honestly don't care at all about Israel and if it lives or survives.

I think the US gets nothing out of its alliance with Israel and we should let Israel fend for themselves. If they survive, no biggie...if they don't, no biggie either. I DO know if the US pulled its support of Israel they would have to actually act civilly towards the international community instead of antagonizing and provoking anyone who disagrees with them.

 

[Cartman]

I don't know if you are just a child or mildly intellectually handicapped. Exactly how old are you anyway?

So,.. the Israelis distribute a warning so that these alleged "weapons" can be removed to safety?

Secondly, WP is not used to demolish buildings.

Your obvious lack of knowledge, and willingness to tell Israeli lies gets you even further into trouble. Every way you turn you step on your own tongue.

Like all Zionists and supporters, your childish naivety, complete lack of morality and simple minded stupidity, is no less than a gross insult to human the human race.

i wish you had the balls to say that to my face... im not as old as you but im no child, my age is not the subject. you hide behind you screen and your wrong idiotic lie you get from the internet while you know nothing about whats going happening here... i seriously dont know why i keep arguing with you, it doesnt lead anywhere and it wont anytime soon, not untill you come to israel and face reality. i will end this argument, something you cant do because you have to talk like a child with anger issue. the only thing you are good at is copying stuff from anti-israeli websites and repeating the words zionists and natzis. in all your comments you say the same thing over and over again. let me quote a sentence that pretty much sums it up...
"insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting something different to happen"

i hope to see you sometimes, it really interest me to see what a man that calls everybody on the internet natzis and racists without ever meeting them. take care.

and brinktk, as much as respect i have for you as a combat soldier, you know nothing about israel... if you took your time and learned more about israel it would be great, because like you said, you dont care about israel.

 

[Eden]

I honestly don't care at all about Israel and if it lives or survives.

I think the US gets nothing out of its alliance with Israel and we should let Israel fend for themselves. If they survive, no biggie...if they don't, no biggie either. I DO know if the US pulled its support of Israel they would have to actually act civilly towards the international community instead of antagonizing and provoking anyone who disagrees with them.

A democracy in the mid east..I think that Israel can help U.S actually on many frontes.,but i accept your opnion.

 

[brinktk]

And explain to me how having Israel as a democracy in that region is an advantage to us. Explain to me EXACTLY what Israel can do for the US that can possibly compare to what the US provides Israel?

As far as I'm concerned, Israel has been a really shitty ally. What do we get out of this one sided alliance?