Israel , America or palestine is terriost ?

It certainly seems that way...

We've all fallen down the rabbit hole, with no end in sight. Perhaps agreeing to disagree would be the best course of action for all of us.

In most cases I would agree but I think this one is different as my suspicion silence is only helping one side accumulate more and more land, now I realise that nothing anyone says here is changing the realities on the ground but as Edmund Burke said "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
 
In most cases I would agree but I think this one is different as my suspicion silence is only helping one side accumulate more and more land, now I realise that nothing anyone says here is changing the realities on the ground but as Edmund Burke said "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


You're absolutely right. I was refering to those of us here who are wholly banging our heads against the wall within the forum. Of course, Yossarian is correct, as long as their is dialogue all the way around, it keeps the door open to the possibility, no matter how remote, that a solution is possible.
 
Mashaal vows to continue fighting Israel rather than give up ‘any inch’ of Palestine
Hamas chief and Gaza PM emerge from large-scale model of rocket fired at Israel to speak to masses celebrating Hamas’s 25th anniversary; ‘Zionists, prepare your passports,’ says military spokesman


http://www.timesofisrael.com/thousan...s-anniversary/

and we need to make "peace" with these savages.
 
Mashaal vows to continue fighting Israel rather than give up ‘any inch’ of Palestine
Hamas chief and Gaza PM emerge from large-scale model of rocket fired at Israel to speak to masses celebrating Hamas’s 25th anniversary; ‘Zionists, prepare your passports,’ says military spokesman


http://www.timesofisrael.com/thousan...s-anniversary/

and we need to make "peace" with these savages.

Are you sure they are not fighting "savages"?
 
That is exactly the point,... the "contract" is not legal as the conditions were arrived at under severe duress, as is the case in extortion and/or blackmail.
(Either you accept the conditions Israel offers, or we'll murder the rest of you and just take it).

No matter what you think, fact is that the Oslo accords are legal and will be upheld until one side denounces it. That's how it goes .
Your last line is just an invention of you and far from the truth.

I suspect it is you that needs to look into contract law here as contracts that are not negotiated in good faith (for instance, fraud) or contracts made under duress (or force) or undue influence (unfair manipulation) are also not considered legally binding.

It doesn't matter who or what entity the contract is between.

Yes it does. There's a difference between national and international laws. Just like there are differences between national laws of different countries.

The only way a contract between states is void is because of the threat or use of force (war). May I remind you that , and I quote, "developing nations attempted to have economic coercion included as a form of force outlawed by article 52 of the Vienna Convention on Treaties. This position was rejected and has, therefore, not been applied to concession agreements." unquote.
Also, in order to prove that coercion (war) was applied, it must be proven. Just saying it is not enough.
Palestinians have the guts to fire rockets but not the guts to denounce a treaty????

Your best line of attack is not to try and rewrite contract law but rather to demonstrate that the accord was not signed under duress.

It's the one who claims it was made under duress who has to prove it. In this case he has to prove that Israel was going to start a war if the treaty wasn't signed. Your chances of doing so are nihil.

I have something to say guys,

Why are you speaking of contracts and crap? Maybe there was a contract between the Palestinians (forced) and the Israelis? That doesn't prove that Israel is an angel. Did Israel have a contract on the Sinai? Do they have a contract on the Golan Heights?

Sinai : Camp David accords signed by Sadat and Begin
Golan : UN Security Council Resolution 242 and 338

All two or more party "agreements" (written and verbal) are negotiated subject to Contract Law. If they do not conform, there is no legal obligation on either party.

Wrong. The Camp David accords fall under the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, the Golan is a UN Council resolution.

I'm saying that even if there was a legal obligation on Israel like a UN resolution, they wouldn't care anyways. That's my point.

Israel fulfilled all UN Counsil resolutions, which are binding (Syria and Iran doesn't). UN General Assembly resolutions are poltical statements from different states and are not binding.

There is an International legal obligation, they don't give a fig for anyone or anything, that's what makes them a rogue state. When Saddam started acting like that, the US made up some **** and bull story about WMD and invaded, then hunted him down and hung him.

I think that it's time a few in Israel got a dose of the same medicine.

I wonder what news you read : Iraq Official: Saddam Moved WMD to Syria. Bush was right after all.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with hatred of a rogue state that is responsible for virtually all the Islamic Global terrorism we see today.

Instead of claiming that in almost every other post of you, you'd better come up with some facts.
Give me the link with Boko Haram (Nigeria), Abu Sayyaf Group (Philippines), Al-Itihaad al-Islamiya, Al-Shabaab (Somalia), Ansar al-Islam (Iraq), Caucasus Emirate (Chechnya),Great Eastern Islamic Raiders' Front (Turkey) (and many many more) and Israel.

LIAR. Israel has killed 90,785 killed by their own admission, http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/casualtiestotal.html
No doubt this figure is seriously understated.

It is estimated that there are 5 million Palestinian refugees today as a result of the Israelis. I'd say that for a pissant state smaller than some farms, you are punching well above your weight in the Ethnic cleansing race. The UN and virtually every other humanitarian aid agency in the world agrees.

Spx001_zpsa95902fb.gif

Nowhere in the 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees and the 1967 Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees states that descendants of refugees are refugees themselves. The UNHCR did this only for the Palestinians in violation of UN regulations.
Also, a lot of the, so called, refugees left voluntarily because the Arabs asked them to leave and come back once the jews were driven into the sea.

How many Palestinian refugees are there?

The first Gulf War was because Iraq invaded Kuwait...where was the coalition support for Iran when they invaded them...Oh...wait...the US sold BILLIONS in arms to the Iraqis to fight against the "Islamist" Iranians...Two short years after that war the very weapons we sold to the Iraqis were used first against the Kuwaitis and then against the coalition during Desert Storm.

You are misinformed. Iraq's weapons were almost all from Russia.

Figures from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute - SIPRI
Iraqi%20Weapons.JPG


The second Gulf War was prosecuted on extremely shoddy or even false intelligence. There was no connection between Iraq and the radical Muslems, and the WMD threat was grossly over estimated or even falsified to make Iraq out as much bigger threat than they actually were. To this day, the huge stockpiles we were expected to find in Iraq have not materialized...and trust me...we looked.

Of course you couldn't find them. Sadam moved them to Syria a few months before you entered the country.

Radical Muslems didn't enter Iraq until AFTER we went there...not before.

Never heard of Ansar al-Islam? Their bases were bombed in the early days of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

easy up . The territory of Arab countries are so wildly,it ocuppy the north party of Africa and some areas of west Asia. I think the Arabs don't care of the little land who capture by Israelis。

Arabs are muslims and (radical) muslims do care about the land on wich Israel is founded. To them it is muslim land, just as Spain and some Balkan countries. To them non-muslims are not allowed to rule over muslim land.

I thought you could just occupy and stile others lands but it seems you can also say lie very well.

That's because you don't know what the truth is.
 
To VDKMS,

Ansar al Islam had ONE base on the North Eastern Border of Iraq straddled between Iran and Kurdistan. They were an Islamist group that had ZERO connection to Al-Queda. They were more about women veiling themselves within Iraq as opposed to a global Islamist state. US special operations along with Peshmerga forces crushed their compound during the first week of the war.

Saddam had nothing to do with this group and the Pesh couldn't get to it because every time they tried they would disappear into Iran. Once the Kurdish Autonomous Region was created with the enforcement of the No Fly Zone after Gulf one, Saddams forces couldn't get to their base to take them out. Extremists Muslems were as big a threat to Saddams power as they are to the leaders of Iraq today. VERY BAD example again.

Here's a list of extremist groups that sprung up AFTER the invasion:
Ansar al Sunna
Islamist state of Iraq
Al Queda in Iraq
United Jihad Factions Counsel
Islamic Army of Iraq
Muj Shura Counsel
Jaysh al Rashideen
Naqshabandi Order
Jaysh al Mahdi
Supreme Islamic counsel of Iraq

These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head because I actually had to fight these guys on a regular basis over the course of the 2 1/2 years I spent in that country.

Explain to me why I personally saw and explored captured Iraqi Army equipment that had US nomenclatures. Or the dozens and dozens of M109 series self propelled howitzers that were scattered along route Tampa south of Baghdad and along Taji airstrip TO THIS DAY? Or the aiming circles, boots, gas masks, compasses etc etc ect that I personally handled on overrun Iraqi installations...all complete with their NSN numbers still marking them within our supply system?

I suppose I imagined all of that?

I didn't say ALL the equipment was supplied by the US. Some of it was. The US also used proxies to give money to Saddam.
Here's a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war

Furthermore, the very WMDs that the US went to Iraq over, a portion of them were SOLD TO SADDAM BY THE UNITED STATES DURING THE IRAN IRAQ WAR! UN inspectors confiscated much of it AFTER the 1st Gulf war...

Here's a quip:
"U.N. inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs. ... The executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record."


In October 1989, President Bush signed NSD 26, which begins, "Access to Persian Gulf oil and the security of key friendly states in the area are vital to U.S. national security." With respect to Iraq, the directive stated, "Normal relations between the United States and Iraq would serve our longer term interests and promote stability in both the Persian Gulf and the Middle East."[43]
On August 2, 1990, at 2:00 am, local time, Iraq launched an invasion of oil-rich Kuwait. America's expedient ally had, overnight, become its most bitter enemy."


Is this not the truth?

Did I imagine all of the things I saw?

Did I have to KILL people for this b******t? Did I have to see friends killed and maimed for these fvcking lies? Now that I'm a father I'm starting to ask these questions. And my gut tells me that maybe the guys I killed were trying to kill me because I didn't fvcking belong there in the first place. Now I've got to square myself with that...I've got to live with it. But I want answers. I don't appreciate you shitting on my experiences from behind a goddam computer when you've never had to pull the trigger or medevac your buddy. How many death letters have you held in your pocket for your buddies?

I gave my youth, I gave my blood, I gave my sanity for that place. How many more of my fallen brothers names do I have to tatoo on my side? I was lied to. WE were lied to. All for special interest. THAT'S the truth.

 
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I gave my youth, I gave my blood, I gave my sanity for that place. How many more of my fallen brothers names do I have to tatoo on my side? I was lied to. WE were lied to. All for special interest. THAT'S the truth.


Mate you said earlier we had fallen down a rabbit hole well now you are arguing with the mad hatter and that will sap your sanity faster than you can imagine until you realise that he is not going admit he is wrong and worst of all he wont stop posting that he isn't as Winston Churchill said..."A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

 
Sinai : Camp David accords signed by Sadat and Begin
Golan : UN Security Council Resolution 242 and 338

That's a contract to you. For some reason, why is it so hard for people to know that Israel agreed to back off from the Sinai back in 1974 but without getting specific? The Sinai was returned due to the result of the 1973 war. Simple as this, they wanted to stay in the Sinai before the war and after the war, the decision was changed.

UN resolution 242 adopted in 1967 that stated Israel backs off from occupied territories in the recent conflict. They backed off after the war, Golan, is still occupied and Syria needs a war to restore it, that's what I'll say.
Israel fulfilled all UN Counsil resolutions, which are binding (Syria and Iran doesn't). UN General Assembly resolutions are poltical statements from different states and are not binding.
You sure about that? I know that they broke 2 ceasefires during the war which I believe were UN resolutions, too were they not?
 
Mate you said earlier we had fallen down a rabbit hole well now you are arguing with the mad hatter and that will sap your sanity faster than you can imagine until you realise that he is not going admit he is wrong and worst of all he wont stop posting that he isn't as Winston Churchill said..."A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."


His impersonal responses and seeming total disregard for the human cost of it all just hit me wrong. I apologize for losing my temper. Much easier to dig your heals in when you've never smelt the burning flesh of kids, or the cries of their mothers. It appears the right believe that war is cool. It's good for business. Imposing will through military ventures when other avenues are available seems to be the route they like to take...All while they proclaim their love for Jesus and that they want peace...what a crock.
 
It amuses me in many ways that until recently I had stayed out of these discussions as they are almost always never ending wastes of time but then VD went off on his "Islmamist" rant that seemed to include the entire Muslim world and we inherited the two Israelis who's attitude towards a people they are happily displacing through fairly nefarious means was to refer to them as "Animals" or "Savages" which really made me stick around just to ensure that these ideological lunatics don't get the last word.
 
I don't really get your point neither did you mention it that besides that I see nothing funny.

well the person who traded a dictator for a different dictator, and rioting in the streets because every little thing cant exactly call us "savages"
 
Actually the fact that they can riot or protest without fear is an indication of a civilised society and as far as I recall the guy was elected so he cant be considered a dictator either.
 
UN resolution 242 adopted in 1967 that stated Israel backs off from occupied territories in the recent conflict. They backed off after the war, Golan, is still occupied and Syria needs a war to restore it, that's what I'll say.

You sure about that? I know that they broke 2 ceasefires during the war which I believe were UN resolutions, too were they not?

Please read this
http://www.defensibleborders.org/rosenne.htm

if you are too lazy then i will quote a conclusion from it.

Resolution 242 is not self-enforcing: Israel is not expected to unilaterally withdraw from territories to fulfill its terms. As a Chapter VI resolution, it requires direct negotiations between Israel and its Arab neighbors. (In contrast, UN resolutions on Iraq were self-enforcing under Chapter VII of the UN Charter, requiring Iraq to withdraw from Kuwait without any negotiations.)
 
To VDKMS,

Ansar al Islam had ONE base on the North Eastern Border of Iraq straddled between Iran and Kurdistan. They were an Islamist group that had ZERO connection to Al-Queda. They were more about women veiling themselves within Iraq as opposed to a global Islamist state. US special operations along with Peshmerga forces crushed their compound during the first week of the war.

Saddam had nothing to do with this group and the Pesh couldn't get to it because every time they tried they would disappear into Iran. Once the Kurdish Autonomous Region was created with the enforcement of the No Fly Zone after Gulf one, Saddams forces couldn't get to their base to take them out. Extremists Muslems were as big a threat to Saddams power as they are to the leaders of Iraq today. VERY BAD example again.

Here's a list of extremist groups that sprung up AFTER the invasion:
Ansar al Sunna
Islamist state of Iraq
Al Queda in Iraq
United Jihad Factions Counsel
Islamic Army of Iraq
Muj Shura Counsel
Jaysh al Rashideen
Naqshabandi Order
Jaysh al Mahdi
Supreme Islamic counsel of Iraq

These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head because I actually had to fight these guys on a regular basis over the course of the 2 1/2 years I spent in that country.

Explain to me why I personally saw and explored captured Iraqi Army equipment that had US nomenclatures. Or the dozens and dozens of M109 series self propelled howitzers that were scattered along route Tampa south of Baghdad and along Taji airstrip TO THIS DAY? Or the aiming circles, boots, gas masks, compasses etc etc ect that I personally handled on overrun Iraqi installations...all complete with their NSN numbers still marking them within our supply system?

I suppose I imagined all of that?

I didn't say ALL the equipment was supplied by the US. Some of it was. The US also used proxies to give money to Saddam.
Here's a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war

Furthermore, the very WMDs that the US went to Iraq over, a portion of them were SOLD TO SADDAM BY THE UNITED STATES DURING THE IRAN IRAQ WAR! UN inspectors confiscated much of it AFTER the 1st Gulf war...

Here's a quip:
"U.N. inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs. ... The executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record."


In October 1989, President Bush signed NSD 26, which begins, "Access to Persian Gulf oil and the security of key friendly states in the area are vital to U.S. national security." With respect to Iraq, the directive stated, "Normal relations between the United States and Iraq would serve our longer term interests and promote stability in both the Persian Gulf and the Middle East."[43]
On August 2, 1990, at 2:00 am, local time, Iraq launched an invasion of oil-rich Kuwait. America's expedient ally had, overnight, become its most bitter enemy."


Is this not the truth?

Did I imagine all of the things I saw?

Did I have to KILL people for this b******t? Did I have to see friends killed and maimed for these fvcking lies? Now that I'm a father I'm starting to ask these questions. And my gut tells me that maybe the guys I killed were trying to kill me because I didn't fvcking belong there in the first place. Now I've got to square myself with that...I've got to live with it. But I want answers. I don't appreciate you shitting on my experiences from behind a goddam computer when you've never had to pull the trigger or medevac your buddy. How many death letters have you held in your pocket for your buddies?

I gave my youth, I gave my blood, I gave my sanity for that place. How many more of my fallen brothers names do I have to tatoo on my side? I was lied to. WE were lied to. All for special interest. THAT'S the truth.



You are true but I guess you wouldn’t have this information if you weren’t in Iraq.
Anyway, in fact the US weapons were a small part of the foreign countries military and civil helps to Iraq during Iran/Iraq war. The real list is really long. Some of those listed below.
German leopard tanks
The UK Chieftain tanks
The Russian Scat B missiles and Mig aircrafts
The French Exocet missiles and Mirage and Super Étendard fighters
The German and England chemical bombs
Add the US sidewinder missiles and AWACS aircrafts helps to your list
The Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Qatar dollars and the Palestinian, Yemeni and the other Arab countries soldiers. Just Kuwait gave 2 billion dollar as a grant and 7 billion dollar as a loan to Iraq in 1981. Iraq never paid back the loan. In return Saddam attacked to Kuwait as their reward. Arabs are this. See them what they are doing in Syria.

And on the other side a country who had a new revolution with a lot of internal problems and turbulences which occur after any revolution and also almost without any foreign ally.
 
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Interesting interview I came across. I read his book years ago, it was one of the first books on radical Islam that I read. It's called Through Our Enemies Eyes. At the time of it being published he couldn't name himself as the author for fear of reprisal. He simply puts "Anonymous" as the author. A very insightful read.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GARE6NcxdcY"]CIA Agent Exposes How Al-Qaeda Dosen't Exist - YouTube[/ame]
 
Interesting interview I came across. I read his book years ago, it was one of the first books on radical Islam that I read. It's called Through Our Enemies Eyes. At the time of it being published he couldn't name himself as the author for fear of reprisal. He simply puts "Anonymous" as the author. A very insightful read.

CIA Agent Exposes How Al-Qaeda Dosen't Exist - YouTube
I'm watching the video right now.
But RT is one of the most biased news agencis in the world.
So i encourage you to take every article\video from them with a grain of salt(or truckload of salt.)
 
I'm watching the video right now.
But RT is one of the most biased news agencis in the world.
So i encourage you to take every article\video from them with a grain of salt(or truckload of salt.)


I was refering to the CIA agent they're interviewing. Look him up and watch more of his interviews. He's about as level headed and objective as they come. This guy knows what he's talking about. I focus more on content as opposed to a name brand.

If we continue to alienate the Muslem world, we are going to be engrossed in wars for decades to come. They're playing the long game, we have neither the patience or the resources to outlast them at this pace. We have to come to terms with that.

We have GOT to stop using soldiers as peacekeepers. We have GOT to stop imposing western democracy on people who don't want it. We have GOT to stop nation building...we can't afford it monetarily, we can't support it economically, and most importantly, it's not worth the cost in lives that it takes for even marginal temporary gains. Finally, we have to stop giving them a reason to try to kill us. If we do that and THEN they hit us again...then we can go in with OVERWHELMING force. As long as we continue to stick our noses in the business of others that don't want us there, we give the extremists and Muslem world as a whole a pedestool to preach from.

maybe this one is more to your liking:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re3_Y3rZ8FI"]Michael Scheuer: Mrs Clinton Has Blood on her Hands Everywhere - YouTube[/ame]

or this one:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1-_mpskz0A"]Michael Scheuer - "Israel Is Spying On The U.S., Stealing Technology & Bribing Congress" - YouTube[/ame]
 
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That's a contract to you. For some reason, why is it so hard for people to know that Israel agreed to back off from the Sinai back in 1974 but without getting specific? The Sinai was returned due to the result of the 1973 war. Simple as this, they wanted to stay in the Sinai before the war and after the war, the decision was changed.

UN resolution 242 adopted in 1967 that stated Israel backs off from occupied territories in the recent conflict. They backed off after the war, Golan, is still occupied and Syria needs a war to restore it, that's what I'll say.

You sure about that? I know that they broke 2 ceasefires during the war which I believe were UN resolutions, too were they not?

You have been told lies. even when the six days war started and we destroyed most of your air forces you have been told that you guys are OK and you guys starting to advance inside israel.
 
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