Israel , America or palestine is terriost ?

[Eden]

I was refering to the CIA agent they're interviewing. Look him up and watch more of his interviews. He's about as level headed and objective as they come. This guy knows what he's talking about. I focus more on content as opposed to a name brand.

If we continue to alienate the Muslem world, we are going to be engrossed in wars for decades to come. They're playing the long game, we have neither the patience or the resources to outlast them at this pace. We have to come to terms with that.

We have GOT to stop using soldiers as peacekeepers. We have GOT to stop imposing western democracy on people who don't want it. We have GOT to stop nation building...we can't afford it monetarily, we can't support it economically, and most importantly, it's not worth the cost in lives that it takes for even marginal temporary gains. Finally, we have to stop giving them a reason to try to kill us. If we do that and THEN they hit us again...then we can go in with OVERWHELMING force. As long as we continue to stick our noses in the business of others that don't want us there, we give the extremists and Muslem world as a whole a pedestool to preach from.

maybe this one is more to your liking:
Michael Scheuer: Mrs Clinton Has Blood on her Hands Everywhere - YouTube

or this one:
Michael Scheuer - "Israel Is Spying On The U.S., Stealing Technology & Bribing Congress" - YouTube

I agree with you at some points and some not.
Islamic extremism is very dangerous to the westren world,and if you will allow them advance freely,it won't end good,you can see the resulsts in europe,espically in france.They want to enforce sharia law on us.
But i agree that the west doesn't need to stick his nose in places that he doesn't have to.
As for peacekeeping force,sometimes it is neccsary to prevent wars and massacers.The UN in the last around 40~ years is just useless,completly corrupt because the communists and the arabic countries do one hand against U.S and espically Israel.Don't do their job at all.


I will watch the videos.sounds like an intersting fella.

 

[ScarabVenom]

well the person who traded a dictator for a different dictator, and rioting in the streets because every little thing cant exactly call us "savages"

Traded a dictator for a dictator? Morsy was elected for your info. Rioting on the streets, yes, we're free, if we don't like something we will protest, what's your issue? At least we don't keep committing warcrimes unlike the savages.

 

[ScarabVenom]

Please read this
http://www.defensibleborders.org/rosenne.htm

if you are too lazy then i will quote a conclusion from it.

Resolution 242 is not self-enforcing: Israel is not expected to unilaterally withdraw from territories to fulfill its terms. As a Chapter VI resolution, it requires direct negotiations between Israel and its Arab neighbors. (In contrast, UN resolutions on Iraq were self-enforcing under Chapter VII of the UN Charter, requiring Iraq to withdraw from Kuwait without any negotiations.)

So? Still doesn't give you the right to occupy land.

 

[ScarabVenom]

You have been told lies. even when the six days war started and we destroyed most of your air forces you have been told that you guys are OK and you guys starting to advance inside israel.

That be true, but....that was the corrupt Abd El-Nasser's era's media. And as soon as the war was over and the people knew the truth, nobody celebrated. Unlike you, I don't get told. The best thing you guys can say is always "Third Army surrounded" "30 or 60 miles from Cairo" always the same lame supposedly proof that Israel was victorious.

And if these are lies as you're claiming, now tell me why Israel voluntarily retreated from the gap all the way to the passes?

 

[Eden]

So? Still doesn't give you the right to occupy land.

Read the rest of the conclusions....israel didnt break any international laws.so stop lying

 

[Israeli_Force]

That be true, but....that was the corrupt Abd El-Nasser's era's media. And as soon as the war was over and the people knew the truth, nobody celebrated. Unlike you, I don't get told. The best thing you guys can say is always "Third Army surrounded" "30 or 60 miles from Cairo" always the same lame supposedly proof that Israel was victorious.

And if these are lies as you're claiming, now tell me why Israel voluntarily retreated from the gap all the way to the passes?

Israel retreated because of the peace aggrement why do you think we should leave such a full of oil dessert like sinai?

 

[ScarabVenom]

Read the rest of the conclusions....israel didnt break any international laws.so stop lying

I dont need to. Occupying other's land is wrong even if it was legal.

What the Hungarian freedom fighters did was illegal but it was right. What Hitler did to the Jews was legal but it was wrong.

P.S Happy Hanukkah, don't eat too much jelly or you will be the size of a T-Rex

 

[ScarabVenom]

Israel retreated because of the peace aggrement why do you think we should leave such a full of oil dessert like sinai?

There was no peace agreement in 1974. I know they back off from oil rich Sinai because they were defeated in a war, think of it and it will make sense

P.S Happy Hanukkah

 

[Cartman]

There was no peace agreement in 1974. I know they back off from oil rich Sinai because they were defeated in a war, think of it and it will make sense

P.S Happy Hanukkah

again? how much time do you need to be told? we didnt lose that war or any other war we had... just because you got back sinai doesnt mean you won, because even when you suprised us we pushed you back and still had sinai. you got it only from the peace agreement so stop believing your government bullsh1t

 

[ScarabVenom]

again? how much time do you need to be told? we didnt lose that war or any other war we had... just because you got back sinai doesnt mean you won, because even when you suprised us we pushed you back and still had sinai. you got it only from the peace agreement so stop believing your government bullsh1t

Well...how many times do YOU need to be told. You didn't lose any war, yes you did lose the 1973 war. I didn't say we won the war because we got the Sinai back, I've given military details to you before in another thread, I ask you, when did I claim we won and the reason of our victory is that we got the Sinai in the end? Actually, you're the one who uses this way in arguing, you're the one who keep saying "Oh, we gave back the Sinai after the peace treaty not after the war so we won." So, before accusing me of such things, listen to yourself first. We did surprise you, we agree on something. You pushed us back? I demand proof. Give me your proof for this specific point. Provide me with a map that shows how the Egyptian Army was "pushed" as you're claiming. Bring me a map with the Egyptian bridgeheads pushed beyond the canal. You're not going to find any, just to tell you. Don't use the word "pushed" because it shows your knowledge level in the topic. We got the entire Sinai through peace treaty, true. But that's a direct result of the war, as well. But, let's ignore that, Israel backed off 40 kilometers away from the Egyptian forces that didn't back off a step, that's on January, 1974. Learn about the disengagement of forces agreement. My government has nothing to do with this really...

[FONT=&quot]"One Egyptian plan was to attack our units west of the canal from the direction of Cairo. The other was to cut-off our canal bridgehead by a link-up of the Second and Third Armies on the east bank. Both plans were based on massive artillery pounding of our forces, who were not well fortified and who would suffer heavy casualties. It was therefore thought that Israel would withdraw from the west bank, since she was most sensitive on the subject of soldier's lives. Egypt, at the time had a total of 1,700 first-line tanks on both sides of the canal front, 700 on the east bank and 1,000 on the west bank. Also on the west bank, in the second line, were an additional 600 tanks for the defense of Cairo. She had some 2,000 artillery pieces, about 500 operational aircraft, and at least 130 SAM missile batteries positioned around our forces so as to deny us air support[/FONT]" - Moshe Dayan, Israeli minister of defense. <----that's your government, not mine.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“However, we could not along ten days of fighting to overcome any of Egyptian armies. The second army resisted and prevented us ultimately to reach Ismailia city. [/FONT]As for the third army, in spite of our encircling them they resisted and advanced to occupy in fact a wider area of land at the east. Thus, we can not say that we defeated or conquered them." - David Elazar, Israeli Chief of Staff <----that's also your government, not mine.[/FONT]

That's Moshe Dayan's grave, not any of our generals.

Sign says, "Minister of failure." signed by "The Fallen".

The "minister of failure" in this war, wasn't on our side, he was on yours.

 

[Eden]

There was no peace agreement in 1974. I know they back off from oil rich Sinai because they were defeated in a war, think of it and it will make sense

P.S Happy Hanukkah

In 1979 more correctly,and actually it was Egypt who pushed for this treaty.
So please learn your facts,defeated in a war?ignorance..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–Israel_Peace_Treaty

 

[Eden]

Well...how many times do YOU need to be told. You didn't lose any war, yes you did lose the 1973 war. I didn't say we won the war because we got the Sinai back, I've given military details to you before in another thread, I ask you, when did I claim we won and the reason of our victory is that we got the Sinai in the end? Actually, you're the one who uses this way in arguing, you're the one who keep saying "Oh, we gave back the Sinai after the peace treaty not after the war so we won." So, before accusing me of such things, listen to yourself first. We did surprise you, we agree on something. You pushed us back? I demand proof. Give me your proof for this specific point. Provide me with a map that shows how the Egyptian Army was "pushed" as you're claiming. Bring me a map with the Egyptian bridgeheads pushed beyond the canal. You're not going to find any, just to tell you. Don't use the word "pushed" because it shows your knowledge level in the topic. We got the entire Sinai through peace treaty, true. But that's a direct result of the war, as well. But, let's ignore that, Israel backed off 40 kilometers away from the Egyptian forces that didn't back off a step, that's on January, 1974. Learn about the disengagement of forces agreement. My government has nothing to do with this really...

[FONT=&quot]"One Egyptian plan was to attack our units west of the canal from the direction of Cairo. The other was to cut-off our canal bridgehead by a link-up of the Second and Third Armies on the east bank. Both plans were based on massive artillery pounding of our forces, who were not well fortified and who would suffer heavy casualties. It was therefore thought that Israel would withdraw from the west bank, since she was most sensitive on the subject of soldier's lives. Egypt, at the time had a total of 1,700 first-line tanks on both sides of the canal front, 700 on the east bank and 1,000 on the west bank. Also on the west bank, in the second line, were an additional 600 tanks for the defense of Cairo. She had some 2,000 artillery pieces, about 500 operational aircraft, and at least 130 SAM missile batteries positioned around our forces so as to deny us air support[/FONT]" - Moshe Dayan, Israeli minister of defense. <----that's your government, not mine.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“However, we could not along ten days of fighting to overcome any of Egyptian armies. The second army resisted and prevented us ultimately to reach Ismailia city. [/FONT]As for the third army, in spite of our encircling them they resisted and advanced to occupy in fact a wider area of land at the east. Thus, we can not say that we defeated or conquered them." - David Elazar, Israeli Chief of Staff <----that's also your government, not mine.[/FONT]

That's Moshe Dayan's grave, not any of our generals.

Sign says, "Minister of failure." signed by "The Fallen".

The "minister of failure" in this war, wasn't on our side, he was on yours.

Well ofc,it was a bad war for us since we had more casualities then ever,but in the end of the war.We didn't even lose not 1m of land.we kept all our assets.The arabs didn't achieven anything.(sinai was returned only 6 years later,in a peace agreement.),thats why your(egypt)Chief of staff got kicked out.
so please,spare me the b******t.I know it hurts your national pride but thats the truth.

I dont get you,how can you call your self victorius.Your army was much bigger and much better then ours,we fought on 3 frontes.Yet we didn't lose not a single meter

 

[Israeli_Force]

Well...how many times do YOU need to be told. You didn't lose any war, yes you did lose the 1973 war. I didn't say we won the war because we got the Sinai back, I've given military details to you before in another thread, I ask you, when did I claim we won and the reason of our victory is that we got the Sinai in the end? Actually, you're the one who uses this way in arguing, you're the one who keep saying "Oh, we gave back the Sinai after the peace treaty not after the war so we won." So, before accusing me of such things, listen to yourself first. We did surprise you, we agree on something. You pushed us back? I demand proof. Give me your proof for this specific point. Provide me with a map that shows how the Egyptian Army was "pushed" as you're claiming. Bring me a map with the Egyptian bridgeheads pushed beyond the canal. You're not going to find any, just to tell you. Don't use the word "pushed" because it shows your knowledge level in the topic. We got the entire Sinai through peace treaty, true. But that's a direct result of the war, as well. But, let's ignore that, Israel backed off 40 kilometers away from the Egyptian forces that didn't back off a step, that's on January, 1974. Learn about the disengagement of forces agreement. My government has nothing to do with this really...

[FONT=&quot]"One Egyptian plan was to attack our units west of the canal from the direction of Cairo. The other was to cut-off our canal bridgehead by a link-up of the Second and Third Armies on the east bank. Both plans were based on massive artillery pounding of our forces, who were not well fortified and who would suffer heavy casualties. It was therefore thought that Israel would withdraw from the west bank, since she was most sensitive on the subject of soldier's lives. Egypt, at the time had a total of 1,700 first-line tanks on both sides of the canal front, 700 on the east bank and 1,000 on the west bank. Also on the west bank, in the second line, were an additional 600 tanks for the defense of Cairo. She had some 2,000 artillery pieces, about 500 operational aircraft, and at least 130 SAM missile batteries positioned around our forces so as to deny us air support[/FONT]" - Moshe Dayan, Israeli minister of defense. <----that's your government, not mine.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“However, we could not along ten days of fighting to overcome any of Egyptian armies. The second army resisted and prevented us ultimately to reach Ismailia city. [/FONT]As for the third army, in spite of our encircling them they resisted and advanced to occupy in fact a wider area of land at the east. Thus, we can not say that we defeated or conquered them." - David Elazar, Israeli Chief of Staff <----that's also your government, not mine.[/FONT]

That's Moshe Dayan's grave, not any of our generals.

Sign says, "Minister of failure." signed by "The Fallen".

The "minister of failure" in this war, wasn't on our side, he was on yours.

Now first,we got attacked in the middle of yom kipur for the one who dont know its a day we are not eating not drinking and we are Vanitys.
you attacked us on suprise in that day and we still won alot of losses fortuntly but we won.

you can read about the lost in wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

 

[ScarabVenom]

In 1979 more correctly,and actually it was Egypt who pushed for this treaty.
So please learn your facts,defeated in a war?ignorance..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–Israel_Peace_Treaty

I know the peace treaty was in 1979. I'm speaking of 18th of January 1974. According to the source you sent me, I don't see where it says that it was Egypt who pushed for the treaty. Regardless, are you saying that because Sadat made a peace treaty means he lost? Again, you're wrong,

[FONT=&quot]“He[Sadat] told of his lonely decision making that led to the war, of his conclusion that there would never be a serious negotiation so long as Israel was able to equate security with military predominance. Now that he had vindicated Egyptian honor, Sadat told me, he had two objectives: to "regain my territory" (the 1967 boundary in the Sinai) and to make peace.” - Henry Kissinger.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Maybe I disagree with the peace treaty, but, those were Sadat's goals and they were both accomplished.
[/FONT]

 

[Eden]

I know the peace treaty was in 1979. I'm speaking of 18th of January 1974. According to the source you sent me, I don't see where it says that it was Egypt who pushed for the treaty. Regardless, are you saying that because Sadat made a peace treaty means he lost? Again, you're wrong,

[FONT=&quot]“He[Sadat] told of his lonely decision making that led to the war, of his conclusion that there would never be a serious negotiation so long as Israel was able to equate security with military predominance. Now that he had vindicated Egyptian honor, Sadat told me, he had two objectives: to "regain my territory" (the 1967 boundary in the Sinai) and to make peace.” - Henry Kissinger.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Maybe I disagree with the peace treaty, but, those were Sadat's goals and they were both accomplished.
[/FONT]

He want to Israel to meet officals.
He wanted peace,it was also in our intersts so it went down pretty easy.
Egypt didn't lose,but saying that she won will be completly incorrect.

 

[ScarabVenom]

Well ofc,it was a bad war for us since we had more casualities then ever,but in the end of the war.We didn't even lose not 1m of land.we kept all our assets.The arabs didn't achieven anything.(sinai was returned only 6 years later,in a peace agreement.),thats why your(egypt)Chief of staff got kicked out.
so please,spare me the b******t.I know it hurts your national pride but thats the truth.

I dont get you,how can you call your self victorius.Your army was much bigger and much better then ours,we fought on 3 frontes.Yet we didn't lose not a single meter

I don't know what "ofc" means. you didn't lose 1m of land??? That's ridiculous, how many times do I need to say really?? Israel retreated all the way to the passes while the Egyptian bridgeheads remained on the east of the canal.

Look at those 2 maps,

Red = Egyptian bridgehead.
Yellow = UN buffer zone.
Blue = IDF.

Then look at the second agreement,

I see the Egyptian bridgeheads in both maps, while the IDF keeps pulling east. Are you sure Israel didn't lose 1m?

The Chief of Staff, nobody knows for sure what happened. Sadat claims to kick him out for not noticing the gap. The Chief of Staff himself, claims the total opposite and tried to demand that Sadat gets represented to justice. And in their diaries, they both keep fighting each others and if you try to know the story, you will end up in a loophole. That's besides worst case scenario, let's say that's true. Your entire government either resigned or were kicked out of office after they all kept blaming each others and your Likud political party crumbled.

Nope, it doesn't hurt my national pride, I speak truth. Truth is we got defeated in 1948, 1956 and 1967. I totally admit it, truth is we were victorious in 1973, and I also totally admit it. You're the one I see fighting too hard with very little info. Besides the fact, you've only given me 1 source which is Wikipedia that's not considered a valid source from the beginning.

Our army was much better than yours? Let's take a look,

In terms of aircraft, Egypt flying the Mig-21s while Israel flying Mirage III and F-4 Phantoms.

In terms of tanks, Egypt using T-54/55 while Israel was using M48.

Infantry, we're larger in number due to our population being doubles and doubles of yours.

You were being attacked on 3 fronts? Who was the 3rd one? I thought it was Egypt and Syria. Every army has odds, we had odds ourselves...Suez Canal, Napalm pipes beneath the canal, Sand wall, Barlev line, lack of weaponry, crumbling economy and la la la. In 1956, it was Israel, France and Britain attacking Egypt yet, I never come up and say "Oh, they were 2 armies and an empire attacking us." A defeat is a defeat regardless.

 

[ScarabVenom]

Now first,we got attacked in the middle of yom kipur for the one who dont know its a day we are not eating not drinking and we are Vanitys.
you attacked us on suprise in that day and we still won alot of losses fortuntly but we won.

you can read about the lost in wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

We're not obliged by your Yom Kippur. I understand it's a Jewish holy day, but we're not a Jewish population and our army is not Jewish and thus, we're not obliged to your holiday in anyway.

You won? Bring me your proof.

And guys, no Wikipedia...that's NOT a VALID SOURCE.

 

[ScarabVenom]

He want to Israel to meet officals.
He wanted peace,it was also in our intersts so it went down pretty easy.
Egypt didn't lose,but saying that she won will be completly incorrect.

Okay, we agree on that. "Egypt didn't lose" but no, Egypt did win and we'll keep discussing this...

 

[Eden]

I don't know what "ofc" means. you didn't lose 1m of land??? That's ridiculous, how many times do I need to say really?? Israel retreated all the way to the passes while the Egyptian bridgeheads remained on the east of the canal.

Look at those 2 maps,

Red = Egyptian bridgehead.
Yellow = UN buffer zone.
Blue = IDF.

Then look at the second agreement,

I see the Egyptian bridgeheads in both maps, while the IDF keeps pulling east. Are you sure Israel didn't lose 1m?

The Chief of Staff, nobody knows for sure what happened. Sadat claims to kick him out for not noticing the gap. The Chief of Staff himself, claims the total opposite and tried to demand that Sadat gets represented to justice. And in their diaries, they both keep fighting each others and if you try to know the story, you will end up in a loophole. That's besides worst case scenario, let's say that's true. Your entire government either resigned or were kicked out of office after they all kept blaming each others and your Likud political party crumbled.

Nope, it doesn't hurt my national pride, I speak truth. Truth is we got defeated in 1948, 1956 and 1967. I totally admit it, truth is we were victorious in 1973, and I also totally admit it. You're the one I see fighting too hard with very little info. Besides the fact, you've only given me 1 source which is Wikipedia that's not considered a valid source from the beginning.

Our army was much better than yours? Let's take a look,

In terms of aircraft, Egypt flying the Mig-21s while Israel flying Mirage III and F-4 Phantoms.

In terms of tanks, Egypt using T-54/55 while Israel was using M48.

Infantry, we're larger in number due to our population being doubles and doubles of yours.

You were being attacked on 3 fronts? Who was the 3rd one? I thought it was Egypt and Syria. Every army has odds, we had odds ourselves...Suez Canal, Napalm pipes beneath the canal, Sand wall, Barlev line, lack of weaponry, crumbling economy and la la la. In 1956, it was Israel, France and Britain attacking Egypt yet, I never come up and say "Oh, they were 2 armies and an empire attacking us." A defeat is a defeat regardless.

We gave sinai for peace so it doesn't matter.Peace was our intention.

Your tanks had night vision and such..our didn't.You had much more tanks and jets.

Meant 2 frontes,who got support of almost all arabic countries.
As i said.
Even at 1956,you outnumbered us.But yet failed.
We kept all our assets,we didn't lose any part of our actual country(not including sinai.)
You expected to conquer us,Egyptian soldiers and Syrian took civilian clothes to the war because they were told that they are going to be at jerusalem and tel aviv,so you didn't really achieved what you wanted.We did.

 

[ScarabVenom]

We gave sinai for peace so it doesn't matter.Peace was our intention.

Your tanks had night vision and such..our didn't.You had much more tanks and jets.

Meant 2 frontes,who got support of almost all arabic countries.
As i said.
Even at 1956,you outnumbered us.But yet failed.
We kept all our assets,we didn't lose any part of our actual country(not including sinai.)
You expected to conquer us,Egyptian soldiers and Syrian took civilian clothes to the war because they were told that they are going to be at jerusalem and tel aviv,so you didn't really achieved what you wanted.We did.

Peace with Israeli terms would be more specific. Israel wanted to keep their settlements in the Sinai protected by IDF soldiers, Israel wanted to keep the 3 airports in the Sinai, Israel also wanted half of the Suez canal. Peace happened, eh let's say true. But, Israel doesn't have settlements in the Sinai and no soldiers in there, too. And, it doesn't have half of the Suez canal as they tried on the 15th of July 1967.

Egyptian tanks the T-55 had 100mm gun with no range finder. While the Israeli M48s had 105mm gun with an optical range finder. Technologically, to this date, Egypt was never superior to Israel in it's terms. In quantity though, we have always been superior. The T-54/55 is not superior to the M48.

For the Jets, yours were much more superior and Egypt avoided as much as possible facing plane to plane fight. Thus, they used the SAM missiles to neutralize your air force.

Eh, I guess you're speaking of the Syrians. We did have support too, but because of the events we didn't really use it and some of them ran back home. If you want a complete list of all Egypt's support from the outside, you can ask me for it.

In 1956 you were not alone, were you? It was Israel, France AND Britain that was a major power by the time. And we backed off from the Sinai because Nasser believed that if he keeps fighting the IDF from the border, he will find the British and the French coming from the Suez Canal that will make the entire Egyptian army ambushed. But, we're not talking about 1956, we're talking about 1973 so let's please stay on topic, shall we?

I demand a proof. In 1973, no-body aimed for taking Jerusalem or Tel Aviv and all those stuff you're saying. If that's true, I ask for proof. But I believe you will not find any because that's not true.