Chinese invasion on Taiwan
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Uncle_Sam
Active member
HERO said:Uncle_Sam said:Italian Guy said:Uncle_Sam said:Well it's better to live in free and normal enviroment... than with cheap extremely low quality products.....
Right. But in real life people try to live free AND with to get along cheaply.
I'm not a snob... But I would rather buy something expensive with high quality, than something cheap with...... errrrrr.... "no quality". It would last longer be more efective(high), and for low quality: May God let that work.............. for a while..... at least...................
To be fair, look at the mouse of our pc or the components inside.. they are all made in China. And they aren't cheap. It's the foreign investors who want to reap more profits by making their products in China (cheaper labour force) but essentially the same quality as made in USA. You dun believe? Even some of the 155mm rounds the US Army uses, are manufactured with the components made in China. :roll: Many US brands products are completely manufactured in China.
Again, take a look at the Triumph bra your grilfriend wears.. made in China but sold at the same price as if made in US. That's the way the US businessmen do business. They are smart to get more $$$ into their pockets by shifting all the labour intensive and even hi-tech manufacturing to third world countries, especially China as it has a well educated work force and cheaper raw materials. That's economics. Economics is cross-country and cares little for politics. :shock:
Ooops, Taiwan!
:lol: But now I'm interested: How much of investment in China comes from US of A? In percents.
And US businessmans are having all the money, and China gets patetical amounts of money! And again US is prospering, taxman comes and gets money from businessman! Much more than could get if that was made in USA, than Army gets the money.... And China works for US of A!
FlyingFrog
Active member
I think USA's investment is very small in percentage maybe something like 10% of the total FDI into China annually.
Most of the investment into China comes from oversea's Chinese, like HongKong, Taiwan, Singapore, S.E.Asia, this amounts like 70% of the total investment into China (but I cannot remember the exact number).
The next largest investors also come from Asians, S.Korea, Japan.
EU, especially Germany, France are doing great bussiness in China, they put more money into China than USA does.
Last year, EU overtook USA as the largest Chinese products output market.
In 2003, total Foreign Direct Investment into China is hard-cashed 50 billion USD, overtaken USA (USA got about 40 billion).
USA as a market is for China very very important same as that Chinese market is very very important for USA and EU.
Well, I hope people just keep doing good bussiness, it is good for all parties, and throw away the cold-war mentatlity, it is over.
JFYI:
In 2003, Chinese foreign trade amounts 1,000 billion USD, overtook Japan as the 3th largest world trader, after USA and Germany. And China is going to overtake Germany very soon, because Chinese foreign trade increased 35% in the first 6 months in 2004.
China has done jack so far to help Isearel out in middle-east issue
EU is trying to get china involved into economic issue, there is, and there never will be any military support from EU to China.
the issue right now is, that many riots comes up and down in China, there is no freedom of speech, if you are trying to publish anything thats against Communist Party, they put you in jail and end up executing you. and by doing this China ignored Democracy.
I am strongly oppose the idea of Taiwan gaining Independence, but what I would like China to do is to invite Taiwan officials into China and have a multi party system instead of one party ruling. we are all talking about WW2, chinese hates japanese for killing so many chinese people, but what people did not realize, that outside of china knows is that communist party in china killed almost twice as much chinese people than japanese did... you think EU would ally with someone that just crushed two major riots in Tainanmen Square that asks for liberty? you think too evil of EU
and what people don't know about is that whether Taiwan has nuclear weapon, US has spotted Taiwan developing nuclear weapon since 1988, and ask them to stop. and think about it, if they did not stop they'd have power to nuke china by now. and how many lives will lost if the war breaks out
EU is trying to get china involved into economic issue, there is, and there never will be any military support from EU to China.
the issue right now is, that many riots comes up and down in China, there is no freedom of speech, if you are trying to publish anything thats against Communist Party, they put you in jail and end up executing you. and by doing this China ignored Democracy.
I am strongly oppose the idea of Taiwan gaining Independence, but what I would like China to do is to invite Taiwan officials into China and have a multi party system instead of one party ruling. we are all talking about WW2, chinese hates japanese for killing so many chinese people, but what people did not realize, that outside of china knows is that communist party in china killed almost twice as much chinese people than japanese did... you think EU would ally with someone that just crushed two major riots in Tainanmen Square that asks for liberty? you think too evil of EU
and what people don't know about is that whether Taiwan has nuclear weapon, US has spotted Taiwan developing nuclear weapon since 1988, and ask them to stop. and think about it, if they did not stop they'd have power to nuke china by now. and how many lives will lost if the war breaks out
Shadowalker
Active member
If taiwan does reunite with china they should like hong kong be able to govern themselves otherwise with the chinese style of rule i can see there being problems!
FlyingFrog
Active member
This has been known for years if not ages
Taiwan didn't develop nukes at all, they planned to make nuke, but plan is paper talk, no nuke is no nuke. Chinese have many "people" in Taiwan, they know exactly what Taiwan is developing.
Btw, I don't think any Taiwan leader is crazy to throw nukes to China, they will not ask China to throw back 10 times more nukes on Taiwan right?
FlyingFrog said:
This has been known for years if not ages
Taiwan didn't develop nukes at all, they planned to make nuke, but plan is paper talk, no nuke is no nuke. Chinese have many "people" in Taiwan, they know exactly what Taiwan is developing.
Btw, I don't think any Taiwan leader is crazy to throw nukes to China, they will not ask China to throw back 10 times more nukes on Taiwan right?
they have repeatly buying raw materials from South Africa, and 400 nukes is enough to nuke out whole china, thats the dangerous part, Iserael has enough nukes to nuke out whole middle east at the moment.
right now the issue is that no one throw nukes, as we know if Iserael throws a nuke, India will follow by throwing it to pakistan, taiwan will reveal theirs.
US has a lot of people in Iserael as well, but it shows that they have nukes just recently... a big country means nothing in recent ages, we know that England can use to own 1/3rd of the world, Japan use to own half of Asia...
skywalker said:
Nationalist in Taiwan does not seek Independence, their idea is to fight back and crush communist regime, its the people at Taiwan seeks independence since Chang Kai Shik killed a lot of their people. after Civil War in China, Chang basically have all his army based at Taiwan, they seek for revenge, since their belief is still under Sun Yet tsung, not Mao. Mao killed more chinese than japanese killed chinese, and these reports are never shown in China, Communist Party likes to hide the facts from people....
from CIA's report, China and Iserael were developing nukes around same time, Iserael has maximum of 400 nukes at the moment, China can have maximum of 600 warhead. and on taiwan, they kept buying raw material from south africa all these ages, go wonder. they buy anti nuke weapons from US, where can china buy these from? US' laser head, patriot missle... if a war breaks out china can't garentee their victory.
FlyingFrog
Active member
Then it is ripe time for Taiwan to declare Independence :lol:
FlyingFrog
Active member
2004 Los Angeles Times
Sailing Toward a Storm in China
U.S. maneuvers could spark a war.
By Chalmers Johnson
Chalmers Johnson's latest book is "The Sorrows of Empire: Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic" (Metropolitan, 2004).
July 15, 2004
Quietly and with minimal coverage in the U.S. press, the Navy announced that from mid-July through August it would hold exercises dubbed Operation Summer Pulse '04 in waters off the China coast near Taiwan.
This will be the first time in U.S. naval history that seven of our 12 carrier strike groups deploy in one place at the same time. It will look like the peacetime equivalent of the Normandy landings and may well end in a disaster.
At a minimum, a single carrier strike group includes the aircraft carrier itself (usually with nine or 10 squadrons and a total of about 85 aircraft), a guided missile cruiser, two guided missile destroyers, an attack submarine and a combination ammunition, oiler and supply ship.
Normally, the United States uses only one or at the most two carrier strike groups to show the flag in a trouble spot. In a combat situation it might deploy three or four, as it did for both wars with Iraq. Seven in one place is unheard of.
Operation Summer Pulse '04 was almost surely dreamed up at the Pearl Harbor headquarters of the U.S. Pacific Command and its commander, Adm. Thomas B. Fargo, and endorsed by neocons in the Pentagon. It is doubtful that Congress was consulted. This only goes to show that our foreign policy is increasingly made by the Pentagon.
According to Chinese reports, Taiwanese ships will join the seven carriers being assembled in this modern rerun of 19th century gunboat diplomacy. The ostensible reason given by the Navy for this exercise is to demonstrate the ability to concentrate massive forces in an emergency, but the focus on China in a U.S. election year sounds like a last hurrah of the neocons.
Needless to say, the Chinese are not amused. They say that their naval and air forces, plus their land-based rockets, are capable of taking on one or two carrier strike groups but that combat with seven would overwhelm them. So even before a carrier reaches the Taiwan Strait, Beijing has announced it will embark on a crash project that will enable it to meet and defeat seven U.S. carrier strike groups within a decade. There's every chance the Chinese will succeed if they are not overtaken by war first.
China is easily the fastest-growing big economy in the world, with a growth rate of 9.1% last year. On June 28, the BBC reported that China had passed the U.S. as the world's biggest recipient of foreign direct investment. China attracted $53 billion worth of new factories in 2003, whereas the U.S. took in only $40 billion; India, $4 billion; and Russia, a measly $1 billion.
If left alone by U.S. militarists, China will almost surely, over time, become a democracy on the same pattern as that of South Korea and Taiwan (both of which had U.S.-sponsored military dictatorships until the late 1980s). But a strong mainland makes the anti-China lobby in the United States very nervous. It won't give up its decades-old animosity toward Beijing and jumps at any opportunity to stir up trouble — "defending Taiwan" is just a convenient cover story.
These ideologues appear to be trying to precipitate a confrontation with China while they still have the chance. Today, they happen to have rabidly anti-Chinese governments in Taipei and Tokyo as allies, but these governments don't have the popular support of their own citizens.
If American militarists are successful in sparking a war, the results are all too predictable: We will halt China's march away from communism and militarize its leadership, bankrupt ourselves, split Japan over whether to renew aggression against China and lose the war. We also will earn the lasting enmity of the most populous nation on Earth.
Sailing Toward a Storm in China
U.S. maneuvers could spark a war.
By Chalmers Johnson
Chalmers Johnson's latest book is "The Sorrows of Empire: Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic" (Metropolitan, 2004).
July 15, 2004
Quietly and with minimal coverage in the U.S. press, the Navy announced that from mid-July through August it would hold exercises dubbed Operation Summer Pulse '04 in waters off the China coast near Taiwan.
This will be the first time in U.S. naval history that seven of our 12 carrier strike groups deploy in one place at the same time. It will look like the peacetime equivalent of the Normandy landings and may well end in a disaster.
At a minimum, a single carrier strike group includes the aircraft carrier itself (usually with nine or 10 squadrons and a total of about 85 aircraft), a guided missile cruiser, two guided missile destroyers, an attack submarine and a combination ammunition, oiler and supply ship.
Normally, the United States uses only one or at the most two carrier strike groups to show the flag in a trouble spot. In a combat situation it might deploy three or four, as it did for both wars with Iraq. Seven in one place is unheard of.
Operation Summer Pulse '04 was almost surely dreamed up at the Pearl Harbor headquarters of the U.S. Pacific Command and its commander, Adm. Thomas B. Fargo, and endorsed by neocons in the Pentagon. It is doubtful that Congress was consulted. This only goes to show that our foreign policy is increasingly made by the Pentagon.
According to Chinese reports, Taiwanese ships will join the seven carriers being assembled in this modern rerun of 19th century gunboat diplomacy. The ostensible reason given by the Navy for this exercise is to demonstrate the ability to concentrate massive forces in an emergency, but the focus on China in a U.S. election year sounds like a last hurrah of the neocons.
Needless to say, the Chinese are not amused. They say that their naval and air forces, plus their land-based rockets, are capable of taking on one or two carrier strike groups but that combat with seven would overwhelm them. So even before a carrier reaches the Taiwan Strait, Beijing has announced it will embark on a crash project that will enable it to meet and defeat seven U.S. carrier strike groups within a decade. There's every chance the Chinese will succeed if they are not overtaken by war first.
China is easily the fastest-growing big economy in the world, with a growth rate of 9.1% last year. On June 28, the BBC reported that China had passed the U.S. as the world's biggest recipient of foreign direct investment. China attracted $53 billion worth of new factories in 2003, whereas the U.S. took in only $40 billion; India, $4 billion; and Russia, a measly $1 billion.
If left alone by U.S. militarists, China will almost surely, over time, become a democracy on the same pattern as that of South Korea and Taiwan (both of which had U.S.-sponsored military dictatorships until the late 1980s). But a strong mainland makes the anti-China lobby in the United States very nervous. It won't give up its decades-old animosity toward Beijing and jumps at any opportunity to stir up trouble — "defending Taiwan" is just a convenient cover story.
These ideologues appear to be trying to precipitate a confrontation with China while they still have the chance. Today, they happen to have rabidly anti-Chinese governments in Taipei and Tokyo as allies, but these governments don't have the popular support of their own citizens.
If American militarists are successful in sparking a war, the results are all too predictable: We will halt China's march away from communism and militarize its leadership, bankrupt ourselves, split Japan over whether to renew aggression against China and lose the war. We also will earn the lasting enmity of the most populous nation on Earth.
Flyingfrog.. do you love war?
Do you wish to see deaths?
Are you brave? Will you join the PLA?
or are you one of them?
The carrier exercise shows that the United States has intelligence that China may launch an attack on Taiwan. But these carriers are there to deter war by showing their strength to China military leaders and to make them think carefully before doing anything foolish.
:rambo:
"Carlos, master terrorist''
Do you wish to see deaths?
Are you brave? Will you join the PLA?
or are you one of them?
The carrier exercise shows that the United States has intelligence that China may launch an attack on Taiwan. But these carriers are there to deter war by showing their strength to China military leaders and to make them think carefully before doing anything foolish.
:rambo:
"Carlos, master terrorist''
FlyingFrog
Active member
HERO said:
No one here "loves" war.
I am not in military, but many family members of mine served in PLA some for 30 years.
Your opinion is quite different from that one of the writer of the article which I quoted above.
I sincerly think that there are more countries then China that have to think carefully before doing anything foolish today. For an example Iraq was an obsolite country with 12 years of sanctions and inferior equipment and important to mention that the tank versions Iraq fielded were, in either case, at least 30 years out of date at the time, had not been significantly upgraded, were firing inferior ammunition often with steel penetrators and half-charges of propellant, and were faced with well-equipped forces using the most up-to-date cutting-edge equipment.
Chines gouvernment are not fools. They know their limits and can take care of Taiwan quite easy. The weapon deals are just prestige and political pissing contests. In the reality even if I strongly believe China wouldn`t attack Taiwan because of the financial interests that even communist China having a hard time to resist I think the other countries making an good idé to take a nice "cop of shut the hell up" as I read on a old war poster a while ago. *lol* Let´s face it. China if they want. They do. If they do they will have financial war against themselfes but there is an Importent factor to consider. This is not Iraq invading Kuwait.
This is a country with enormous potentials to realy be one of the worlds maby financial strongest nations if you look in to the future. Europe don´t afford a longer conflict with China thats for sure. Half of Swedens factorys are going down to China or are allready there for an example. Sweden is a EU member and a strong force if they can put togheter something in times of a crisis. If China attack Taiwan. Then its bad publicity for a while.
But anyone that have been in a war or have followed the wars that have been running from the 60s to this date knows that there are powerfull men that win a lot of "wargaming". We the small guys that dont´love war are just bricks on a big chess set. China would not be financial punished for a long time ---- That would be financial suicide for the EU and those nations. We all know that the human rights and so on are not something that China is famous to uphold.
But the financial intrests are larger then the hearts and minds when it comes to human lives in the financial circles and powerful forces are they. If FlyingFrog is a war lover.... Well then you all can consider me as one too. But I can tell you all fokes out here. The truth and the reality is not always as we are being served. This post is to interesting to be locked down. There are lot´s to discuss over here. And to be honest for the people that thinks that the US will interfear in a conlict between Taiwan and China ---- Think again.
There is nothing on Taiwan worth for US to protect more then these new weapon deals they have set up between the two countries. This is not the persian gulf with large Oil or Opium fields. This is an importent stand of against the real enemys of the US. North Korea and they are a threat greater then China ever will be. Look at this article I think it speaks for itself to be honest. This is not the 60s and this is not Cuba missile crisis or a hunt for communists any longer. This is the 20th century and we got a lot to learn before we are asking questions about loving war or not. With great respect towards all involved on this post.
LINK:
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040716-123134-8152r.htm
Most Sincerly:
Doc.S
:viking:
Chines gouvernment are not fools. They know their limits and can take care of Taiwan quite easy. The weapon deals are just prestige and political pissing contests. In the reality even if I strongly believe China wouldn`t attack Taiwan because of the financial interests that even communist China having a hard time to resist I think the other countries making an good idé to take a nice "cop of shut the hell up" as I read on a old war poster a while ago. *lol* Let´s face it. China if they want. They do. If they do they will have financial war against themselfes but there is an Importent factor to consider. This is not Iraq invading Kuwait.
This is a country with enormous potentials to realy be one of the worlds maby financial strongest nations if you look in to the future. Europe don´t afford a longer conflict with China thats for sure. Half of Swedens factorys are going down to China or are allready there for an example. Sweden is a EU member and a strong force if they can put togheter something in times of a crisis. If China attack Taiwan. Then its bad publicity for a while.
But anyone that have been in a war or have followed the wars that have been running from the 60s to this date knows that there are powerfull men that win a lot of "wargaming". We the small guys that dont´love war are just bricks on a big chess set. China would not be financial punished for a long time ---- That would be financial suicide for the EU and those nations. We all know that the human rights and so on are not something that China is famous to uphold.
But the financial intrests are larger then the hearts and minds when it comes to human lives in the financial circles and powerful forces are they. If FlyingFrog is a war lover.... Well then you all can consider me as one too. But I can tell you all fokes out here. The truth and the reality is not always as we are being served. This post is to interesting to be locked down. There are lot´s to discuss over here. And to be honest for the people that thinks that the US will interfear in a conlict between Taiwan and China ---- Think again.
There is nothing on Taiwan worth for US to protect more then these new weapon deals they have set up between the two countries. This is not the persian gulf with large Oil or Opium fields. This is an importent stand of against the real enemys of the US. North Korea and they are a threat greater then China ever will be. Look at this article I think it speaks for itself to be honest. This is not the 60s and this is not Cuba missile crisis or a hunt for communists any longer. This is the 20th century and we got a lot to learn before we are asking questions about loving war or not. With great respect towards all involved on this post.
LINK:
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040716-123134-8152r.htm
Most Sincerly:
Doc.S
:viking:
FlyingFrog
Active member
Doc wrote down very reasonable points
Actually I really doubt USA will get into "war" btw PRC (Mainland) and ROC (Taiwan).
I think about following:
1. USA will try to sell as many as weapons as possible, first to make big bucks from the Taiwanese, second to block China's rise.
2. USA knows it will not risk its global interests to fight a hot war against China, so it is controlling the Taiwan leadership after the curtain, it will deny any Taiwanese attempts to declare independence. USA is "smart" playing the game, but sometimes being "too smart" will hurt yourself one day.
Actually I really doubt USA will get into "war" btw PRC (Mainland) and ROC (Taiwan).
I think about following:
1. USA will try to sell as many as weapons as possible, first to make big bucks from the Taiwanese, second to block China's rise.
2. USA knows it will not risk its global interests to fight a hot war against China, so it is controlling the Taiwan leadership after the curtain, it will deny any Taiwanese attempts to declare independence. USA is "smart" playing the game, but sometimes being "too smart" will hurt yourself one day.
hhh...I dont know...If the Chinese invade Taiwan it will have effect on the chinese global status....Now, other than that, the current US administration dose not take BS from anyone. The Chinese Communist party wont sign its own death warrent. Really, they stand know chans in full on war with the US, because the chinese army is poorly trained, badly equipped(even if the situation has been improoving lately), and has a lack of air superiority capabilities. Even if the the fact that the land units use old equippment will be balanced by the shir ammount of Chinese soldiers, they will not be able to controll the air with their collection of old Mig 21 and Mig 19 copies. The Chinese are just not up to it.
Shadowalker
Active member
sherman105 said:
it does depend on where the war is fought as the closer to china the worse it will be for america but if the war is in the pacific closer to taiwan than china then china wont be able to get so many AA weapons and what range to chinese Anti-ship missiles have!
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