When a terrorist dies, is it OK to gloat? (AP)

[Chief Bones]

My opinion .....

Seno/DelBoy ...
Not to get the argument going AGAIN, however ... while I agree that the war on terror is far from being over, it remains for the living to celebrate every single terrorist death that we can. What I tried to say before, is the fact that while I cheer when I hear we have killed another terrorist, what I am really doing .. is cheering the fact that justice for those who are no longer amongst the living, has been administered to another cowardly terrorist. It is the ONLY justice that comes close to balancing the scales.

I recognize that unless/until the factors that have caused so much misery in the world are addressed/cured, the ONLY justice that can be served up for the victims of terrorism, is to remove ANOTHER terrorist from the land of the living. While I know that terror begets terror and death begets death, the innocent victims of terrorism need to know that we won't forget them. We as free people, need to attack terrorism wherever/whenever it rears its ugly head, and send as many terrorists to their just reward as we can - their innocent dead victims demand it.

I realize that it is difficult to define who is a terrorist and who is just fighting for their country or their freedom ... however, I personally maintain, that ANY group that uses terror as its main weapon against innocent civilians, are terrorists and should be treated as such. To celebrate when justice is served up to a terrorist is NOT childish or immoral ... sometimes that is all that is left for the living after a terrorist attack.

What I have posted is JUST my opinion and is given as such. It is NOT meant to push buttons or to demean other's comments/beliefs. I fully believe that we (as the living), have to celebrate any time that justice for innocent victims of terrorism, is administered to a terrorist (dead OR alive).

 

[Del Boy]

Yes, and I reckon we all are fully aware of that summing up. I guess we are holding our breath and staying calm as history unfolds before us. I have to say that so far I have been impressed by the studied silences demonstrated here, the odds are too great to be dismissed lightly.

 

[Spartan613]

So you don't think that it was morally repugnant when Arabs around the world danced in the street on hearing of 9/11?

You can't have it both ways. I'm afraid that I not only disagree strongly with your sentiments in this regard, and in view of your recent posts, I also feel that you are doing yourself no favours in respect to your issues in dealing with your past experiences.

I'm certainly no trick cyclist, but I'd say that your views are just feeding any problems you may be having in dealing with past events. To me, and I'm sure many others, your reasoning is highly illogical.

You're demonstrating how little you know of the muslim/arab psyche. And how they view us.... To them, a man who supresses displays of emotion the way we "westerners" do, is not a "real man". Just as we think overt displays of emotion are over the top or "morally repugnant".

We might as well express our satisfaction with bin hidin's termination, because to do otherwise is to give them the idea that we aren't committed to this fight.

I drank a beer and ate a ham sandwich to celebrate bin laden's death.

Suck ****, muslim fundies. :santam16:

 

[MontyB]

Could we at least aggree on the fact that the war on terror is far from over yet?

There has been a lot of misses and collateral damage so far, wich makes a lucky strike like Osama bin put to rest with the crabs even more pleasant, but if we sum it up there's no reason to roll out the barrell and start celebrating yet.

The Middle East is on fire, and we still don't know in what direction that wildfire will turn.
Afghanistan and Pakistan is boiling with tension, apart from the constant sounds of exploding munitions and shots being fired.
Osama bin Laden is just one round won, and the game is still on.

Very true but it sadly it isn't going to happen while people are fixated on the wording of the previous post.

You're demonstrating how little you know of the muslim/arab psyche. And how they view us.... To them, a man who supresses displays of emotion the way we "westerners" do, is not a "real man". Just as we think overt displays of emotion are over the top or "morally repugnant".

We might as well express our satisfaction with bin hidin's termination, because to do otherwise is to give them the idea that we aren't committed to this fight.

I drank a beer and ate a ham sandwich to celebrate bin laden's death.

Suck ****, muslim fundies. :santam16:

Indeed yet the Western world looks on those flag waving/burning types as an example of all that is wrong in the region until of course we do it and then it is just a "celebration".

In many ways I think we have started believing our own hypocrisy that we no longer realise it as such.

 

[senojekips]

You're demonstrating how little you know of the muslim/arab psyche. And how they view us.... To them, a man who supresses displays of emotion the way we "westerners" do, is not a "real man". Just as we think overt displays of emotion are over the top or "morally repugnant".

We might as well express our satisfaction with bin hidin's termination, because to do otherwise is to give them the idea that we aren't committed to this fight.

I drank a beer and ate a ham sandwich to celebrate bin laden's death.

Suck ****, muslim fundies. :santam16:

Believe it or not, I don't have any real disagreement with your assesment of the "Arab psyche" except that perhaps that, "I don't have an understanding of it",... as I worked out of the Al Fujaira, Kharg Island and Ras Tanurah for many years when I was with Mobil Fairfax.

I would hardly call your, beer and a ham sammo, gloating, and I still say that pretty much all forms of overt and poorly considered self satisfaction, it is behaviour best left to pre-pubescent school girls.

 

[A Can of Man]

Personally not a big fan of using two different words for the same sort of stuff. It robs you of a chance to learn something about what the other guys are doing.
Either way, I celebrated. lol.

 

[84RFK]

Okay, I must admit that I poured me a nice inch of my oldest and most tar&smoke smelling Islay malt when the news arrived that Osama bin put to sleep for good.

But I didn't drive my car around in the streets with the blinkers on and the horn blazing, I didn't jump around and fire my guns in the air, I didn't burn flags or dance in the street cheering....

I simply felt no urge to descend to that level.

The bastard is dead and gone, finito, now can we concentrate on the matters that really count here?

 

[Chief Bones]

Okay, I must admit that I poured me a nice inch of my oldest and most tar&smoke smelling Islay malt when the news arrived that Osama bin put to sleep for good.

But I didn't drive my car around in the streets with the blinkers on and the horn blazing, I didn't jump around and fire my guns in the air, I didn't burn flags or dance in the street cheering....

I simply felt no urge to descend to that level.

The bastard is dead and gone, finito, now can we concentrate on the matters that really count here?

The ONLY difference between you and me, is the fact that my celebration is primarily for the justice that was meted out for the deaths that were the direct result of terrorist activity that was planned by Osama Bin Laden. I guess that makes you and I a couple of pre-pubescent school girls (at least according to 'one' of our members).

Of course, like you ... I "didn't drive my car around in the streets with the blinkers on and the horn blazing, I didn't jump around and fire my guns in the air, I didn't burn flags or dance in the street cheering....

I simply felt no urge to descend to that level".

The ONLY thing that I did to celebrate Bin Laden's demise, was to toast him on his way to hell with a bottle of beer [Budweiser if it makes any difference]. My wife and I sent him on his way with a hearty "I hope he rots in hell"..

I ALSO agree that now that the bastard is dead and buried at sea, we can get on with what is important ... chasing down and dealing with the rest of the cowards that believe that using terrorism as a weapon against innocent civilians is okay. I don't know whether this is a war that can be won by killing "all" the terrorists, however ... I would sure like to try.

 

[Ted]

To me, the best voice/justice, is the death of the person responsible for the attacks on the innocent. Their deaths are nothing more than what they deserve or have earned. If you want to call it an eye-for-an-eye, so be it.

Well Chief, this is a rather interesting point. If you read both articles (and there are numerous more) what to do with the perpetrators?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/may/20/iraq.rorymccarthy

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=35575&Cr=Afghan&Cr1

 

[GHR]

In the civilian world, it is possible to collect all the background information and then make a thorough analysis that leads to a number of alternatives (possible solutions) and then to make a thorough impact assessment of all alternatives, and finally prioritize the consequences and then take the optimal decision. This rational decision making model is impossible in battle. You have to decided and act now and here and there are a number of factors that influence that decision making.

Time pressure i.e. a critical situation where an officer or NCO must take a decision more quickly than he wishes, since omission may aggravate the situation.

An alarming situation i.e. a critical situation where the consequences of the decision may have safety implications.

Sleep deprivation and physical fatigue i.e. the physical condition of the soldier comes in because of the operation. And so on. There may be many factors influencing decisions.

All these reviews of examples of how military units have killed civilians are almost always based on rational thinking of people who have never been in such a dilemma. As long as you have newer been forced to make decisions under great pressure that can lead to death on both sides, then it's too easy to point your fingers of those who live with the dilemma it is to take drastic decisions in seconds. Deliberate attacks on civilians are a war crime and can never be justified. But every time civilians are killed during combat operations it will be designated as the military's fault. And to celebrate the wedding by shooting your AK47 in the air, although it’s tradition, is not the smartest action in a war zone. Sometimes you are just at the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Yossarian]

The method of his death was quick, professional, and efficient.

No means of using civilians as shields and vehicles of transit carrying hundereds of them as missiles as a means of delivery was used.

Not one human shield was employed on part of the Coalition,

Not one detainee was beheaded,

Not one instance of mass murder of civilians was employed,

Not one declaration of a genocidal campgain to end the very exsistance of a people was issued,

As for cheering for the death of a man who matches all these factors, and made himself a figure head for others to follow in those same bloody footsteps,

It's almost absolutely appropriate.

 

[senojekips]

The method of his death was quick, professional, and efficient.

No means of using civilians as shields and vehicles of transit carrying hundereds of them as missiles as a means of delivery was used.

Not one human shield was employed on part of the Coalition,

Not one detainee was beheaded,

Not one instance of mass murder of civilians was employed,

Not one declaration of a genocidal campgain to end the very exsistance of a people was issued,

As for cheering for the death of a man who matches all these factors, and made himself a figure head for others to follow in those same bloody footsteps,

It's almost absolutely appropriate.

Not one item mentioned in your post, really has any bearing whatsoever on whether it is OK to "gloat" about the death of a terrorist.

One should be very careful when pointing the finger at others, I note that you have very carefully skirted around all of our own stuffups, Abu Ghraib, Extraordinary rendition, Waterboarding, Blackwater, indiscriminate killing of civillians,..... which although not frequent or numerous, are nothing to be proud of, and some of which in wars past would have been considered as war Crimes and prosecuted as such.

 

[AZ_Infantry]

Not one item mentioned in your post, really has any bearing whatsoever on whether it is OK to "gloat" about the death of a terrorist.

As for cheering for the death of a man who matches all these factors, and made himself a figure head for others to follow in those same bloody footsteps,

It's almost absolutely appropriate.

(Emphasis mine).

I'm not saying I particularly agree with his assessment -- I've stated my opinion earlier -- but he did address the topic of gloating.

 

[senojekips]

(Emphasis mine).

I'm not saying I particularly agree with his assessment -- I've stated my opinion earlier -- but he did address the topic of gloating.

That was exactly my point, not a single thing that he said justified his or anyone else's "cheering".

For us to gloat merely shows that we are not so very different from those whom we constantly accuse of behaving like animals. It does nothing for our image or our cause.

 

[84RFK]

That was exactly my point, not a single thing that he said justified his or anyone else's "cheering".

For us to gloat merely shows that we are not so very different from those whom we constantly accuse of behaving like animals. It does nothing for our image or our cause.

Maybe you have to respect your enemy in order to be better than him..

Or at least in order to keep a higher moral standard.

 

[senojekips]

Or at least in order to keep a higher moral standard.

Precisely,... how credible do we look if on one hand we tell the world that our enemies behave like animals, and then on the other hand we turn around and behave in a similar manner. Doing exactly the same things we criticised them for.

Once you lose credibility not much else counts.

 

[Yossarian]

My orginal comment was a little rash, I will admit,

But as for a feeling of undeniable sense of relief and closure for many Americans, you can't hide that.

Even in a very slight sense.

That's all I can say, anything else and then I will just be talking in circles making no sense.

 

[Spartan613]

That was exactly my point, not a single thing that he said justified his or anyone else's "cheering".

For us to gloat merely shows that we are not so very different from those whom we constantly accuse of behaving like animals. It does nothing for our image or our cause.

And still you ignore the fact that by celebrating "quietly" we reinforce the opinion held by our enemies that we really don't have the stomache for this fight.

When dealing with barely literate savages like so many of these muslims, perception is everything.

 

[senojekips]

And still you ignore the fact that by celebrating "quietly" we reinforce the opinion held by our enemies that we really don't have the stomache for this fight.

When dealing with barely literate savages like so many of these muslims, perception is everything.

Nahhh,... i don't ignore it, I just don't think that it's anywhere near as important as you would have me believe, and anyway, nothing we do, or do not do, will overly influence their opinions of us. If you ignore them you are heartless, if you try to help them you are "fruit, ripe for the picking",.... tell me I'm wrong. Have a look at the warlords we helped against the Russkies and ask them their opinions of us.

It has been demonstrated over centuries that the most fatal mistake one can make in warfare is to underestimate your enemy,... so let them think what they like. Unless of course we do NOT have the stomach for it, in which case we would really have something to worry about.

I care about as much, what they think of me and infidels in general, as they care about what I think of them.

In which case I feel that the best we can do is to convince the remainder of the world that we have more self control and intestinal fortitude than they do. Whether they think we have the stomach for this or not, means jack sh!t, what actually counts, are results and the judges are still out on that one.

Actually there's very little to celebrate anyway, we took ten years to hunt down and kill one solitary man, who it appears spent most of his time sitting at home watching TV right under our noses.This solitary fact has a far greater influence on the opinions of the Fundamentalist Muslim world than us not carrying on like a mob headless chooks at the news of his death.

 

[Ted]

And still you ignore the fact that by celebrating "quietly" we reinforce the opinion held by our enemies that we really don't have the stomache for this fight.

When dealing with barely literate savages like so many of these muslims, perception is everything.

And if it is your perception that you/we are dealing with 'barely literate savages' the fight you talk about will be next to impossible to win. #1 error since colonial times is to see your opponent as back ward, no-brainers....