Firearms Possession discussion (in response to yet another US shooting)

[The Highway Man]

I used to go there in my Scorpion back on the 80s.

When I was still in school.

 

[brinktk]

Oh I love how being reservist means you don't know about the army. Guess what, I went through the SAME IET as everyone else and trust me from what I've seen from people who went to FLW or Ft Sill, they lack discipline and still are individuals. **** my class marched right by FLW basic when I was in AIT, I could see with my own eyes that their training was sub-standard compared to what I got at the MCoE. The fact that you get Vietnam era gear at FLW amongst other things is just astounding. Then there is the utter chaos that is caused by new EO policies. People friggin act like they're in high school and file complaints for stupid crap, or to get other privates in trouble.

Oh yea, the old generation from the 90s up till around 05, they're tough, they are the old army even in combat support, however I was referring to the newest generation of privates that come out of IET. You don't have to take my word for it, why? Because the old generation of the army, MY NCOs that went through a lot tougher IET, said the same **** about this new politically correct US Army.

I laughed out loud when I read this!

EVERY GENERATION SAYS THIS! If you're at a point where basic training is your litmus test for the army...then you should probably just shut up and keep it to yourself. YOU DON'T know anything about the Army. You just got in. 5 years from now nobody is going to give a crap about your basic training including yourself.

I'm not sure a kid with your attitude would do well in the infantry...take that know it all attitude to your grunt squad leader and you will be low crawling up and down the hallway being quite miserable...just a little food for thought.

 

[BritinBritain]

The same for SGC?

I've been out of UK for 20 years, I'm a bit out of touch nowadays. How the SGC did work, a holder didn't have to be a member of a club, I don't know f the law has changed.

Shoot someone in the UK? You'll be out within 20 years...

Life should mean life, the buggers should stay in jail until they die. I'm all for the death penalty until I think of Derek Bentley.

requests for better firearms have been made multiple times.

This is what annoys me when people who don't know one end of a firearm to the other make the decision of what should be issued or the ones who shout, "In my day we were issued 455 Mk 6 Webley's, now that WAS a gun." Yea it was good for knocking nails in wood.

Nice bit of kit, but hardly suited to being carried around for a full 12 hour shift. Bit big and bulky?

Good lor and you were a RM???? A Winchester Defender is no heavier (if my memory serves) than an L1A1 and not as long. Mine has an 18 inch barrel with a 7 round magazine. BUT, no one firearm is good for all scenario's as you are fully aware, but a 12 bore pump makes more sense inside a terminal building then an MP5 or a H&K G36.

But these criminals don't carry out massacres, and have yet to do so?

I hope not, but who knows what this nutters are going to do next.

Plenty of people in th UK drugged up on anti-depressants.

Yes, but do they have the side effects of stuff like prozac?

 

[Capt Frogman]

I've been out of UK for 20 years, I'm a bit out of touch nowadays. How the SGC did work, a holder didn't have to be a member of a club, I don't know f the law has changed.

It's still that way.

Life should mean life, the buggers should stay in jail until they die. I'm all for the death penalty until I think of Derek Bentley.

Agreed!

This is what annoys me when people who don't know one end of a firearm to the other make the decision of what should be issued or the ones who shout, "In my day we were issued 455 Mk 6 Webley's, now that WAS a gun." Yea it was good for knocking nails in wood.

That's civi street for you.

Good lor and you were a RM???? A Winchester Defender is no heavier (if my memory serves) than an L1A1 and not as long. Mine has an 18 inch barrel with a 7 round magazine. BUT, no one firearm is good for all scenario's as you are fully aware, but a 12 bore pump makes more sense inside a terminal building then an MP5 or a H&K G36.

Not all police officers are as strong as me.

I hope not, but who knows what this nutters are going to do next.

Who knows, but it'll not involve firearms.

Yes, but do they have the side effects of stuff like prozac?

No idea but I wouldn't be surprised!!

 

[George]

That's cute combatants in a warzone have guns therefore all societies should have ease of access to guns. We all know how well that works. How couldn't I have seen this???
Terrorists just like organised crime will always find access to weaponry.

I could get into how I think the arming of society results in an escalation of violent crime. As criminals will always exist and will always take the path of least resistance. If you victim can hit back the criminal will just hit it harder and faster before the victim knows what's up.

Rant over ?

As has been said, the tougher the gun controls, the higher the crime rate. Stares with less gun control have lower rates Criminals like unarmed victims. Crime rates have fallen as CCWs have become easier to obtain.

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

Again, the UK consists of more than just England. There's also Wales and Scotland. (Do US maps only show England in the place of the UK??)

As far as I'm aware, there are no "active" terrorist groups in the US and there hasn't been any recent wars such the the troubles in N.I.

So for the third and final time, you can't use N.I. to make your point as the situation there is different to the rest of the UK.

So...gun control began in the UK in, what? 1922? So how did the IRA get guns in the '60s & later if your gun laws are so great @ keeping gun out of everyones hands? Does that mean if Wales or Scotland decide they're a war zone the gun laws will suddenly not work? It's just puzzling how you make such great claims about your gun laws then try to weasel out on how N.I. is "different" while saying your laws are just what we need here.

I'm at a loss, to what point you're trying to make here.
In the US, they have lots of people, with lots of guns,and lots of dead people, who should still be enjoying Christmas.
In the UK, we have hardly any guns, and hardly anyone killed by them.
Our Laws work, to save lives.

I've heard talk of knife control being discussed in the U.K. & to reduce the number of people killed/cut up with broken beer mugs they now have unbreakable beer mugs so you guys can beat each other to death with one instead of getting cut.

What those statistics do not show are those killed with illegal firearms in gang wars, gang bangers fighting over turf, for some reason self defence killings are usually lumped together with illegal killings. Thats why I don't trust so called "Official statistics." As I said, Gun Free South Africa are forever bleating about children killed with guns, they don't mention the fact that they are 17 to 19 year old gang bangers fighting over turf.

Yup, pretty much the same here.

George, you had 6,000 people murdered, with a handgun,in one year.
We probably had 6.
Don't you think that is 6,000 too many.
Obviously none of those,were your family members.

Would you feel better if they had been stabbed instead? Algeria has good gun control. Extreamists killed thousands there with knives & swords, I'm sure anti-gun types the world over are thrilled that those people were hacked to death instead of being shot. You really think that most of the 6,000 wouldn't be dead from some other method? Sometime back as study was made of convicts attitudes on guns. To make sure it was balanced a pro gun guy & an anti gun guy partnered up. They interviewed convicts in Federal, State, & local prisons, north & south, east & west. The found that in the low gun law areas the convicts were way more concerned about getting shot by citizens & considerably less by the cops. Many reported to have not attacking someone when they thought he might be armed. By the end of the extensive study the anti-gun guy switched sides. There the City of Bristol, the Tenn/Virginia State line runs right through it. Lets move it to the Vermont/Mass border. Vermont has loose gun laws, even carry w/o a permit. Mass., on the other hand has some of the most preposterious laws around. Get cought with a single round of handgun ammo it's a year in jail even if there nothing to fire it in. So...here you are, a burglar standing on the State line between the 2 States. Are you going into the houses on the Vt or the Ma side?

Mexico has tough gun laws to, still has a war going on with the criminals, who can send tons of grass & cocaine in, why not guns?

 

[Chief Bones]

I'll say the same thing that I have said at events surrounding other shootings .....

Enforce the laws that are on the books .. force mandatory registration and training for permit to carry licenses ... etc, etc etc.

All of the new laws in the world could not have prevented the shootings where 20 young people and 6 adults were killed.

Only the environment that causes someone to take up arms to settle emotional problems can be changed ... and then only on a limited scale.

 

[Tankboy]

They weren't stabbed, they were shot.
We are talking about guns, and what guns have done,to innocent children, who should be looking forward to Christmas, with their families, in the safest town in America!.
And you still try to justify having all those guns around, and try to undermine other countries gun laws, that work.
And you call yourselves civilised.

 

[Capt Frogman]

So...gun control began in the UK in, what? 1922? So how did the IRA get guns in the '60s & later if your gun laws are so great @ keeping gun out of everyones hands? Does that mean if Wales or Scotland decide they're a war zone the gun laws will suddenly not work? It's just puzzling how you make such great claims about your gun laws then try to weasel out on how N.I. is "different" while saying your laws are just what we need here.

It's like talking to a brick wall. I've already told you umpteen times. :roll:

How did the IRA get their guns? They smuggled vast quantities from the US and Libya. There were vast amounts of stock piled weapons from previous conflicts and WW2.

Why did they have guns? Errr, they were at "war"? I surely don't need to give you another history lesson?

I'm not trying to "weasel" out of anything. Myself, Highway Man and Tankboy (who have all served in N.I. in varying roles) have already explained it to you multiple times yet you still don't get it.

While N.I. was a war zone, up holding the gun control laws was the least of everyone's priorities.

It's amazing that in England, Wales and Scotland where there has been no internal wars or active terrorist/paramilitary groups, our gun laws are working fine. Yet in a country where there was a recent "war", ongoing "incidents" and active terrorists, they had lots of weapons available.....

I'm sure even you can work it out?

 

[Capt Frogman]

All of the new laws in the world could not have prevented the shootings where 20 young people and 6 adults were killed.

Really? You believe that?

So absolutely nothing could have been done to prevent the 6 massacres in 2 years?

I find that impossible to believe.

 

[lolwhassup]

I'm not sure a kid with your attitude would do well in the infantry...take that know it all attitude to your grunt squad leader and you will be low crawling up and down the hallway being quite miserable...just a little food for thought.

Sadly that has happened to me and several people in my squad because we were screwing around with each other's camelbaks... I see your point, and I would do well to keep my mouth shut in future sir. :salute2:

 

[George]

Enforce the laws that are on the books .. force mandatory registration and training for permit to carry licenses ... etc, etc etc.
.

What does gun registration do? Tells the govt who the last legal owner of a guns was. They didn't seem to have a problem finding out who the owner was, but registration doesn't prevent anything. It might provide a suspect, that's about it other than giving the Govt a list for confinscation. Yes, enforce the Laws, like the one that says you can't murder..but that one doesn't seem to work, the one that says criminals can't have guns...doesn't seem to work either....Ending plea bargaining might help, ending early release/parole might

It's like talking to a brick wall. I've already told you umpteen times. :roll:

How did the IRA get their guns? They smuggled vast quantities from the US and Libya. There were vast amounts of stock piled weapons from previous conflicts and WW2.

Why did they have guns? Errr, they were at "war"? I surely don't need to give you another history lesson?

I'm not trying to "weasel" out of anything. Myself, Highway Man and Tankboy (who have all served in N.I. in varying roles) have already explained it to you multiple times yet you still don't get it.

While N.I. was a war zone, up holding the gun control laws was the least of everyone's priorities.

It's amazing that in England, Wales and Scotland where there has been no internal wars or active terrorist/paramilitary groups, our gun laws are working fine. Yet in a country where there was a recent "war", ongoing "incidents" and active terrorists, they had lots of weapons available.....

I'm sure even you can work it out?

So..the law works unless it's ignored. Look at how well it works(but don't look behind the N.I. curtain) Like the way the no guns on campus was ignored by the shooter, and criminals in general ignore laws. Gun Laws only disarm the intended victims of the criminals who ignore gun laws & the rest of the laws. Read somewhere there wasn't a single murder in S. Vietnam during the War, every killing was War related...

 

[captiva303]

Mate I think you are beyond reason. I am finding your "logic" impossible to understand.


The vast majority of people committing these types of crimes school shooting only possess a firearm as it is legal to do so. If they weren't legally available they wouldn't commit the crime they would likely drink a bottle of brasso or would be found hanging from the ceiling on a belt. Rather than taking mum/dads/big brothers/ their gun to school and shooting everyone they can find followed by themselves.

Everyone else has been able to make the destinction between the politically/criminally motivated and the psycho gunman at the end of his tether.

You admit bandaid solutions haven't worked gun free schools etc so why not address the heart of the problem. Gun laws are so lax that the unstable are able to access firearms excessively easily. Full (logical)gun reform is impossible in the US so why not make some compromises for the benifet of society. Surely that would be better than sticking your head in the sand and denying that anything is wrong.

 

[George]

Mate I think you are beyond reason. I am finding your "logic" impossible to understand.


The vast majority of people committing these types of crimes school shooting only possess a firearm as it is legal to do so. If they weren't legally available they wouldn't commit the crime they would likely drink a bottle of brasso or would be found hanging from the ceiling on a belt. Rather than taking mum/dads/big brothers/ their gun to school and shooting everyone they can find followed by themselves.

Everyone else has been able to make the destinction between the politically/criminally motivated and the psycho gunman at the end of his tether.

You admit bandaid solutions haven't worked gun free schools etc so why not address the heart of the problem. Gun laws are so lax that the unstable are able to access firearms excessively easily. Full (logical)gun reform is impossible in the US so why not make some compromises for the benifet of society. Surely that would be better than sticking your head in the sand and denying that anything is wrong.

Not denying anything is wrong, gun free zones that leave people defenceless is wrong. That those 2 brave women charged the guy empty handed because of pie in the sky anti-gun fantasy is a crime in its self.

 

[MontyB]

Well it seems we didn't have to wait long...

Four killed in Pennsylvania shooting spree

10:26 Sat Dec 22 2012
AFP
Four people have been killed and several police officers wounded in a shooting spree in rural Pennsylvania.
The shootings, exactly a week after a massacre of 20 children and six adults at a school in Connecticut, "happened over a large area" near Geeseytown, in a remote part of the eastern US state, Diane Meling, a spokeswoman for the Blair County Emergency Management Agency, told AFP.
"Four people were shot dead. That number of four includes the alleged shooter," she said. "There were several Pennsylvania state troopers injured, I understand none seriously."
The emergency was over, officials said.
"Pennsylvania State Police have neutralised the active shooter in Franstown Township, Blair County. There is no longer a threat to residents and visitors to this area from this individual," an update on the county emergency management's Facebook page said.
The bloodshed came as a national debate on gun laws went into high gear, with President Barack Obama saying he would support a new bill seeking a ban on assault rifles.
America's most powerful gun lobby has used its first high profile appearance since last weeks Sandy Hook massacre, to dismiss growing calls to restrict firearms.
It also coincided with a call from the US's National Rifle Association (NRA) for more guns and armed guards at public schools.
In Newtown, Connecticut on December 14 a disturbed local man used such a rifle to carry out his massacre, before committing suicide.

http://news.msn.co.nz/worldnews/8584044/four-killed-in-pennsylvania-shooting-spree

Clearly the system is working as intended, it is just a shame there aren't more guns out there.

 

[captiva303]

Nothing is wrong .Clearly need more guns to fix the gun problem...

 

[MontyB]

Nothing is wrong .Clearly need more guns to fix the gun problem...

I think the key is a program similar to what a company has done here, they have put bicycle stands around cities and you can pick up a bike and just drop it off at the closest stand to where you end up, perhaps Americans could do the same with firearms basically put a crate of firearms on the corner of each street that anyone can get their hands on.

By the end of the month there would never be another shooting, I am sure it is perfectly logical that to decrease gun violence you increase the number of guns so dumping guns by the thousands onto the streets should make it the safest country on earth.

 

[captiva303]

Are you mad monty?!?

That's sounds like communism. We couldn't have the state arming its citizens with state owned weaponry! What about their personal rights or freedoms.

 

[George]

I think the key is a program similar to what a company has done here, they have put bicycle stands around cities and you can pick up a bike and just drop it off at the closest stand to where you end up, perhaps Americans could do the same

They tried the bike thing here in the States, they were promptly stolen.

 

[captiva303]

On second thoughts...

Why stop at just arming all of America??

As unregulated guns are such a great force for peace. The US should divert some of its defence and state department budgets or maybe just dedicate its foreign aid budgets? To arming the worlds population. They should first flood all the worlds hot spots (followed by everywhere else) with as many weapons as possible. So that they can defend their personal freedoms and be prepared to overthrow the "tyranny of government".


I can just imagine all the peace and prosperity all over the world.

 

[captiva303]

They tried the bike thing here in the States, they were promptly stolen.

But surely with all those guns out there the crime rate would drop to such an extent that they wouldn't get stolen?