Firearms Possession discussion (in response to yet another US shooting)

[BritinBritain]

I'd like to think soldiers would be more competent to use firearms compared to civilians. After all, they were trained to use their weapons?

The difference is and this has been recognised by government a few years ago, Civilians are more likely to care for their own firearms and not abuse them. If I had a problem with my L1A1, GPMG or Sterling, I simply handed it to the armourer

But nothing like WW2 though?

During the recent riots in London and other cities, one elderly chap remarked, "This is worse that the blitz."

Were people shot and/or massacred?

No, they just had their heads opened up with a small axe, bought at Harrods BTW.

Hence why I said "according" to the figures.

As I said, I am very suspicious of so called official statistics, they can be fudged to say what you want them to say.

Ah yes, the Home Office. If they said it, then it must be right!

The Home Office think they are right. BTW who authorises what type of firearms plod use? Whomever it is, they must be total idiots, using a H&K MP5 in a place like Heathrow airport with it marlble walls and floors, Mk2Z 9mm Parabellum ammunition will have innocent bodies laying everywhere.

I'll get back to you on the origin of firearms used statistics.

I'd be interested.

Probably, although Obama's changes should change this?

I have no idea

Governments can bring in all the gun laws they want, they can ban guns totally, but that won't stop criminals getting them because criminals don't obey gun laws, only the law abiding do.

 

[Tankboy]

George, you had 6,000 people murdered, with a handgun,in one year.
We probably had 6.
Don't you think that is 6,000 too many.
Obviously none of those,were your family members.

 

[BritinBritain]

George, you had 6,000 people murdered, with a handgun,in one year.
We probably had 6.
Don't you think that is 6,000 too many.
Obviously none of those,were your family members.

What those statistics do not show are those killed with illegal firearms in gang wars, gang bangers fighting over turf, for some reason self defence killings are usually lumped together with illegal killings. Thats why I don't trust so called "Official statistics." As I said, Gun Free South Africa are forever bleating about children killed with guns, they don't mention the fact that they are 17 to 19 year old gang bangers fighting over turf.

 

[Tankboy]

What those statistics do not show are those killed with illegal firearms in gang wars, gang bangers fighting over turf, for some reason self defence killings are usually lumped together with illegal killings. Thats why I don't trust so called "Official statistics." As I said, Gun Free South Africa are forever bleating about children killed with guns, they don't mention the fact that they are 17 to 19 year old gang bangers fighting over turf.

I'm at a loss, to what point you're trying to make here.
In the US, they have lots of people, with lots of guns,and lots of dead people, who should still be enjoying Christmas.
In the UK, we have hardly any guns, and hardly anyone killed by them.
Our Laws work, to save lives.

 

[Capt Frogman]

So just admit it, you great gun control laws were a total failure in N.I., why do you think they would work here? They only seem to work in England with a compliant population

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

Again, the UK consists of more than just England. There's also Wales and Scotland. (Do US maps only show England in the place of the UK??)

As far as I'm aware, there are no "active" terrorist groups in the US and there hasn't been any recent wars such the the troubles in N.I.

So for the third and final time, you can't use N.I. to make your point as the situation there is different to the rest of the UK.

 

[captiva303]

So just admit it, you great gun control laws were a total failure in N.I., why do you think they would work here? They only seem to work in England with a compliant population

That's cute combatants in a warzone have guns therefore all societies should have ease of access to guns. We all know how well that works. How couldn't I have seen this???

Umm no!

What planet are you from?? The answer is simple.

Terrorists just like organised crime will always find access to weaponry.

The average citizen however is unlikely to obtain one for a spur of the moment murder or suicide. Likewise your crazed gunman will be just a man and will just top himself rather than taking half the local school with him. Removing the ease of access prevents these types of mass shooting( which is what this thread was about was it not?). As seen in Australia after ww2 up to 1996 Australia had 17 mass shootings. After gun reform in 1996 after the Port Aurthur massacre in which 35 people died there have been 0, yes zero.

I could get into how I think the arming of society results in an escalation of violent crime. As criminals will always exist and will always take the path of least resistance. If you victim can hit back the criminal will just hit it harder and faster before the victim knows what's up.

Rant over ?

 

[Capt Frogman]

The difference is and this has been recognised by government a few years ago, Civilians are more likely to care for their own firearms and not abuse them. If I had a problem with my L1A1, GPMG or Sterling, I simply handed it to the armourer

But that has little, if any, relevance to the discussion?

During the recent riots in London and other cities, one elderly chap remarked, "This is worse that the blitz."

Were there any firearms involved in the riots?

No, they just had their heads opened up with a small axe, bought at Harrods BTW.

So not a firearm, then?

As I said, I am very suspicious of so called official statistics, they can be fudged to say what you want them to say.

I agree and it's true to a point. However, I believe them to be a good indication of our low firearms incidents.

The Home Office think they are right. BTW who authorises what type of firearms plod use? Whomever it is, they must be total idiots, using a H&K MP5 in a place like Heathrow airport with it marlble walls and floors, Mk2Z 9mm Parabellum ammunition will have innocent bodies laying everywhere.

They have HK G36C's now.

It's down to the local police forces with regards to weapons deployed.

I'd be interested.

Likewise.

Governments can bring in all the gun laws they want, they can ban guns totally, but that won't stop criminals getting them because criminals don't obey gun laws, only the law abiding do.

As it is in the Uk, yet we don't have mass shootings? Of the 3 mass shootings we've had, all were carried out by licenced firearms permit holders.

 

[BritinBritain]

But that has little, if any, relevance to the discussion?

Of course it has, a civi care's for his equipment and generally more responsible.

Were there any firearms involved in the riots?

I don't know if there were, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was.

So not a firearm, then?

They had firearms, but if they used them a killed someone, they got their neck stretched

I agree and it's true to a point. However, I believe them to be a good indication of our low firearms incidents.

See my last quote.

They have HK G36C's now.

At Heathrow??? That's even worse than the MP5. That is insanity.

It's down to the local police forces with regards to weapons deployed.

So the officer I/c of the local plod at Heathrow is a total and unremitting idiot to issue firearms like the HK G36C to Heathrow plod.

As it is in the Uk, yet we don't have mass shootings? Of the 3 mass shootings we've had, all were carried out by licenced firearms permit holders.

Michael Ryan was known to have had mental health problems and did Hamilton, the clubs at which both men were members were concerned about their mental health and as far as I am aware informed the local police. The 3rd bloke wasn't all the ticket either, so someone somewhere wasn't doing his/her job when these people applied for their FAC.

Perhaps another reason there are fewer incidents in the UK (apart from being a much smaller population) is that doctors are not so quick to prescribe drugs such as prozac.

 

[Capt Frogman]

Of course it has, a civi care's for his equipment and generally more responsible.

Only those who are members of shooting clubs are.

I don't know if there were, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was.

There was only one as I recall.

They had firearms, but if they used them a killed someone, they got their neck stretched

Only if caught. Also, there are plenty of people not afraid of the consequences of their crimes.[/quote]

See my last quote.

We're sort of in agreement! :shock:

At Heathrow??? That's even worse than the MP5. That is insanity.

I believe so. It's certainly the case in most places these days.

So the officer I/c of the local plod at Heathrow is a total and unremitting idiot to issue firearms like the HK G36C to Heathrow plod.

Heathrow is the responsibilty of The Met, so...... :lol:

Which firearm would you recommend for policing airports?

Michael Ryan was known to have had mental health problems and did Hamilton, the clubs at which both men were members were concerned about their mental health and as far as I am aware informed the local police. The 3rd bloke wasn't all the ticket either, so someone somewhere wasn't doing his/her job when these people applied for their FAC.

Perhaps another reason there are fewer incidents in the UK (apart from being a much smaller population) is that doctors are not so quick to prescribe drugs such as prozac.

My point was that none of these massacres were carried out by non-firearms holders, who you said could get their hands on any firearm if they so wished.

 

[BritinBritain]

I'm at a loss, to what point you're trying to make here.
In the US, they have lots of people, with lots of guns,and lots of dead people, who should still be enjoying Christmas.
In the UK, we have hardly any guns, and hardly anyone killed by them.
Our Laws work, to save lives.

The 6,000 gun deaths in the USA as you pointed out were due to handguns, the point I am making that many statistics are all too often fudged, of those 6,000 deaths a number can be attributed to gang bangers, a number to self defence, some accidental shootings and some to death by cop. Its far easier to lump them all in one statistic.

I never mentioned anything about the UK, however UK gun laws didn't help Jill Dando who was shot with a handgun and yet handguns are and were banned at the time of her shooting.

As I keep saying criminals ignore gun laws.

I found this on the Durham plod site.

Prohibited Weapons

"There are many types of firearms, especially those designed for military use, that have no place in the sporting field or hobby of shooting and others, for instance some hand guns, which have been brought into the prohibited category by Acts of Parliament. All of the following weapons and ammunition are prohibited:"

Who the hell is he/she to tell me that such rifles as the L1A1 has no place in the hobby of shooting? Its this kind of attitude that royally pisses me off.

 

[Capt Frogman]

As I keep saying criminals ignore gun laws.

Yes, but we don't have many, any even, massacres carried out by people with illegally held weapons.

I found this on the Durham plod site.

Prohibited Weapons

"There are many types of firearms, especially those designed for military use, that have no place in the sporting field or hobby of shooting and others, for instance some hand guns, which have been brought into the prohibited category by Acts of Parliament. All of the following weapons and ammunition are prohibited:"

Who the hell is he/she to tell me that such rifles as the L1A1 has no place in the hobby of shooting? Its this kind of attitude that royally pisses me off.

Sadly, many civilans don't understand firearms. They hear the word military and panic.

 

[BritinBritain]

Only those who are members of shooting clubs are.

Before an FAC is issued the applicant must be a member of a Bisley NRA affiliated club

There was only one as I recall.

As well as Molotiv cocktails.

Only if caught. Also, there are plenty of people not afraid of the consequences of their crimes.

Albert Pierrepoint did say that the death penalty was no deterrent. Perhaps, but its stops the bugger killing again.

We're sort of in agreement! :shock:

We are? I reserve the right to change my mind.:drink:

I believe so. It's certainly the case in most places these days.

To be honest its ridiculous.

Heathrow is the responsibilty of The Met, so...... :lol:

Someone at the Met needs a kick up the jacksy or sack the bugger.

Which firearm would you recommend for policing airports?

My initial suggestion would be something like a 12 bore pump with a 7 round magazine like the Winchester 1300 Defender, to reduce the risk of a ricochet and injuring or killing innocent bystanders. All manner of ammunition is made for it from number 12 shot up to solid slug as well as those bean bag projectiles. But I would spend more then 5 minutes researching for a suitable firearm if I were the one responsible in issuing firearms to the plod.

My point was that none of these massacres were carried out by non-firearms holders, who you said could get their hands on any firearm if they so wished.

I didn't say that, I said criminals can get their hands on what they want, I also said that perhaps the reason why there are less shootings in UK is (apart from the population size) is the very few if any prescriptions for drugs such as prozac.

 

[BritinBritain]

Yes, but we don't have many, any even, massacres carried out by people with illegally held weapons.

And I hope it stays that way. But some of these Yardy gangs are dangerous bastards.

Sadly, many civilans don't understand firearms. They hear the word military and panic.

I agree with that. Maybe some sort of education is the answer.

 

[Capt Frogman]

Before an FAC is issued the applicant must be a member of a Bisley NRA affiliated club

The same for SGC?

As well as Molotiv cocktails.

Indeed.

Albert Pierrepoint did say that the death penalty was no deterrent. Perhaps, but its stops the bugger killing again.

Shoot someone in the UK? You'll be out within 20 years...

We are? I reserve the right to change my mind.:drink:

:horsie:

To be honest its ridiculous.

Numberous requests for better firearms have been made multiple times.

Someone at the Met needs a kick up the jacksy or sack the bugger.

Join the queue.

My initial suggestion would be something like a 12 bore pump with a 7 round magazine like the Winchester 1300 Defender, to reduce the risk of a ricochet and injuring or killing innocent bystanders. All manner of ammunition is made for it from number 12 shot up to solid slug as well as those bean bag projectiles. But I would spend more then 5 minutes researching for a suitable firearm if I were the one responsible in issuing firearms to the plod.

Nice bit of kit, but hardly suited to being carried around for a full 12 hour shift. Bit big and bulky?

I didn't say that, I said criminals can get their hands on what they want, I also said that perhaps the reason why there are less shootings in UK is (apart from the population size) is the very few if any prescriptions for drugs such as prozac.

But these criminals don't carry out massacres, and have yet to do so?

Plenty of people in th UK drugged up on anti-depressants.

 

[Tankboy]

I work near the airport, they don't all have the G36 or even MP5.
They have a mixture of weapons,to cover most scenarios.all have the Glock.
They even have armoured patrol vehicles.
I used to go there in my Scorpion back on the 80s.

 

[Capt Frogman]

I work near the airport, they don't all have the G36 or even MP5.
They have a mixture of weapons,to cover most scenarios.all have the Glock.
They even have armoured patrol vehicles.
I used to go there in my Scorpion back on the 80s.

I always thought SO18 were packing some pretty hardcore sh*t! :shock:

 

[Tankboy]

They don't have the Scorpions anymore,thankfully.

 

[Tankboy]

These babies.

 

[Capt Frogman]

View attachment 1293
These babies.

Who the fecks "OscarTango"? :box:

They've messed around with a good name!

 

[Capt Frogman]

These are so much better than the yank ones! :rock:

I want one!