The 2nd Amendment and criminals.

[senojekips]

I see exactly what you are trying to say. "Take away the weapons and all of our worries go away." That sounds pretty wishful to me. Have you thought about the cultural impacts that might have? How much American history do you actually know?

Have a look at most other First world countries and you might start to get the idea. The problem lies not in your history but with your present firearms attitudes, blaming your history is just another one of the many ways that people deliberately avoid dealing with the real problem.

You will see that countries with the most lax firearms control are the same ones that have the problems with firearm related crime.

 

[-- Dusty]

Seno I won't blame history. I'll blame reality. I'll blame the here and the now.
We have law enforcement that is literally nearly unresponsive. We have a judicial system that keeps letting the wrong guys out too early while locking up that that should never have been arrested in the beginning.

No, it's not the "Wild West" anymore, and really it never was. Not to the image provided by Hollywood. Hollywood takes the bad and makes it either angelic or beyond total demonoid.

If you sat down and spent time evaluating reliable data sources, you would find that the gun crimes are....committed by criminals. Not the honest/law-abiding gun owner.
Restricting guns to everyone benefits only the few that are truly the criminals.

If you were to break into a home and steal all the money and gold, tell me which house you would pick-
One where you have at best a 50/50 chance the owner owns and possess guns;
or one where you know there is a very good chance there are no guns.
I know which one you would choose.

 

[MontyB]

If you sat down and spent time evaluating reliable data sources, you would find that the gun crimes are....committed by criminals. Not the honest/law-abiding gun owner.
Restricting guns to everyone benefits only the few that are truly the criminals.

This is an incredibly redundant statement, it is like saying DUI's are always committed by drunk drivers and not sober ones.

If you were to break into a home and steal all the money and gold, tell me which house you would pick-
One where you have at best a 50/50 chance the owner owns and possess guns;
or one where you know there is a very good chance there are no guns.
I know which one you would choose.

Here is a question for you if this scenario is what you believe will happen should firearms be restricted to sane and non-criminal owners why isn't this scenario commonplace in New Zealand and Australia where firearms are restricted?

 

[senojekips]

If you were to break into a home and steal all the money and gold, tell me which house you would pick-
One where you have at best a 50/50 chance the owner owns and possess guns;
or one where you know there is a very good chance there are no guns.
I know which one you would choose.

Hypothetical questions of this nature are of absolutely no consequence in real life, as they are based purely on the premise of "if".

Not being of that mentality, I find it hard to put myself in that position, BUT,... if I were in such a position, I would make sure I was a damn sight better armed than the home owner and I would certainly be a lot more willing to stop them before they had a chance to stop me.

It's a no brainer,............. IF.

 

[George]

Hypothetical questions of this nature are of absolutely no consequence in real life, as they are based purely on the premise of "if".

Not being of that mentality, I find it hard to put myself in that position, BUT,... if I were in such a position, I would make sure I was a damn sight better armed than the home owner and I would certainly be a lot more willing to stop them before they had a chance to stop me.

It's a no brainer,............. IF.

It's not allways hypothetical. Vermont & Massachussetts share a border. In Mass. you get a yr in jail for possesing a single pistol round, even with no pistol to shoot it in. Vermonters can carry w/o a permit. What State has a bigger crime problem, Vt or Ma?

 

[senojekips]

It's not allways hypothetical. Vermont & Massachussetts share a border. In Mass. you get a yr in jail for possesing a single pistol round, even with no pistol to shoot it in. Vermonters can carry w/o a permit. What State has a bigger crime problem, Vt or Ma?

And exactly what has that to do with the hypothetical question asked of me?

Here in Australia, the state of Victoria has a bigger crime problem than NSW, Victoria has a much smaller population than NSW. The result cannot always be attributed to the cause that you would like to choose. There is absolutely no proof or even an indication that the lower crime rate in Vt., is a result of handgun laws.

 

[George]

And exactly what has that to do with the hypothetical question asked of me?
.

An anti-gun type sprung a criminal to speak before a Govt body so he could make the same type of statement about just being better armed than the homeowners, but actions often speak in a claerer manner. After Fla passed its CCW bill criminals in Miami shifted to targeting rental cars leaving Miami Int., because they knew the tourists would be unarmed.

 

[senojekips]

An anti-gun type sprung a criminal to speak before a Govt body so he could make the same type of statement about just being better armed than the homeowners, but actions often speak in a claerer manner. After Fla passed its CCW bill criminals in Miami shifted to targeting rental cars leaving Miami Int., because they knew the tourists would be unarmed.

What are you smoking George? You still have not answered WTF this has to do with the question that I was asked, or are you merely trying to divert the question?

When a question begins "If" it is generally regarded as being hypothetical.

As for the rest of your stuff that you are posting, can you prove what you say, because your own statement that "Actions speak more clearly than words", is exactly what I was implying when I (and MontyB) pointed out that places like Australia and NZ with strong gun control have nothing like the firearms crime rate that you do in the USA.

 

[George]

What are you smoking George? You still have not answered WTF this has to do with the question that I was asked, or are you merely trying to divert the question?

When a question begins "If" it is generally regarded as being hypothetical.

As for the rest of your stuff that you are posting, can you prove what you say, because your own statement that "Actions speak more clearly than words", is exactly what I was implying when I (and MontyB) pointed out that places like Australia and NZ with strong gun control have nothing like the firearms crime rate that you do in the USA.

How's your murder by knife rate? IF the murder by firearms rate is low & it's because of your gun laws, then the murder by other means should be high. If it isn't, maybe it isn't the gun laws & lack of guns, but you guys just aren't into killing like the vicious animals we have here. Maybe a human version of the Killer Bee situation. Seen various attempts @ explaining why England's rape rate is a lot lower than here, does it really have to do with guns?

 

[senojekips]

How's your murder by knife rate? IF the murder by firearms rate is low & it's because of your gun laws, then the murder by other means should be high. If it isn't, maybe it isn't the gun laws & lack of guns, but you guys just aren't into killing like the vicious animals we have here. Maybe a human version of the Killer Bee situation. Seen various attempts @ explaining why England's rape rate is a lot lower than here, does it really have to do with guns?

What have I said all along, or haven't you read my posts?

If you look back as far as my first post in this thread:-

Guns in the US are not the problem, it's a poor "cultural attitude" towards firearms and their place in society.

I have repeated this at least three times.

My argument is that your "Wild west" attitude and complete disregard for firearms control and responsible usage is the root cause of the problems you have today. As I've also said several times, why is it that the first world countries with the most lax firearms laws seem to have the highest rates of firearms crime.

Feeding that problem with even more firearms is about as sensible as trying to extinguish a wild fire with gasoline.

 

[Yossarian]

My argument is that your "Wild west" attitude and complete disregard for firearms control .

Not really Wild West in my corner of the woods, you take it out when the season comes in , maybe a week or two before to get your sights situated for your enviroment.

Then put it away at the end of the morning or when the sun sets.

Simple as pie, I don't know that many people if any who jocky around with a rifle strapped to their back just for giggles, you just don't do it :/

How many lumberjacks carry axes on their shoulders when they are not working? Or firemen who drag hoses around just for kicks?

Yea we maybe assosiated with them, but don't place them on the table at every meal.

Also, you can in theory put out a fire with gasoline, seeing as it's the fumes that are flamable...

 

[George]

What have I said all along, or haven't you read my posts?

If you look back as far as my first post in this thread:- I have repeated this at least three times.

My argument is that your "Wild west" attitude and complete disregard for firearms control and responsible usage is the root cause of the problems you have today. As I've also said several times, why is it that the first world countries with the most lax firearms laws seem to have the highest rates of firearms crime.

Feeding that problem with even more firearms is about as sensible as trying to extinguish a wild fire with gasoline.

All isn't nessesarily as they seem. States with high crime, insead of cracking down on offenders find it easier to blame the gun & pass anti gun Laws & then blame States with lax gun Laws for thier problems despite the fact that if it was the gun laws(or lack thereof) the lax States should have a higher croime rate(if you believe crime is caused by lack of gun control Laws). Mexico has tough gun Laws, & blames its problems on the US's laxer gun Laws, seems to be a trend here. If gun Laws were the answer, Mexico, Mass. NYC. & DC should be crime free, but thier not. Jamaica & other Caribbean Islands have tough gun laws & do have a problem with gun crimes. They just usually don't make the world press.

 

[senojekips]

Not really Wild West in my corner of the woods, you take it out when the season comes in , maybe a week or two before to get your sights situated for your enviroment.

Then put it away at the end of the morning or when the sun sets.

Simple as pie, I don't know that many people if any who jocky around with a rifle strapped to their back just for giggles, you just don't do it :/

How many lumberjacks carry axes on their shoulders when they are not working? Or firemen who drag hoses around just for kicks?

Yea we maybe assosiated with them, but don't place them on the table at every meal.

Also, you can in theory put out a fire with gasoline, seeing as it's the fumes that are flamable...

A very good example of the way pro gunners trivialise the facts,... anything to avoid facing the truth.

The fact remains, US firearms laws are ridiculously lax when compared with the most first world countries. Say what you like.

 

[MontyB]

All isn't nessesarily as they seem. States with high crime, insead of cracking down on offenders find it easier to blame the gun & pass anti gun Laws & then blame States with lax gun Laws for thier problems despite the fact that if it was the gun laws(or lack thereof) the lax States should have a higher croime rate(if you believe crime is caused by lack of gun control Laws). Mexico has tough gun Laws, & blames its problems on the US's laxer gun Laws, seems to be a trend here. If gun Laws were the answer, Mexico, Mass. NYC. & DC should be crime free, but thier not. Jamaica & other Caribbean Islands have tough gun laws & do have a problem with gun crimes. They just usually don't make the world press.

I would also point out that Mexico and the Caribbean are also borderline failed states with dodgy police forces and failing social systems who have allowed organised crime to take over.

You can not compare those nations to the USA, Western Europe or NZ/Australia, they are much closer to Eastern Europe with a lower standard of living.

 

[senojekips]

All isn't nessesarily as they seem. States with high crime, insead of cracking down on offenders find it easier to blame the gun & pass anti gun Laws & then blame States with lax gun Laws for thier problems despite the fact that if it was the gun laws(or lack thereof) the lax States should have a higher croime rate(if you believe crime is caused by lack of gun control Laws). Mexico has tough gun Laws, & blames its problems on the US's laxer gun Laws, seems to be a trend here. If gun Laws were the answer, Mexico, Mass. NYC. & DC should be crime free, but thier not. Jamaica & other Caribbean Islands have tough gun laws & do have a problem with gun crimes. They just usually don't make the world press.

You go back to picking out individual states. This means nothing when they are surrounded by other states that do not have gun control.

Do these states have border firearms inspection points? No! In other words, firearms are virtually no more difficult to access than anywhere else in the US. You only have to read the news to see where Mexico is obtaining their firearms. Mexican Gun Laws are a result of the ease with which firearms can be obtained and smuggled across your borders, no wonder they are unenforceable.

 

[Yossarian]

A very good example of the way pro gunners trivialise the facts,... anything to avoid facing the truth.

The fact remains, US firearms laws are ridiculously lax when compared with the most first world countries. Say what you like.

No I am quoting a way of life, of what I have experiance in, and when people who do not understand it that want to threaten that way, which is not part of the gun crime problem, with unthought bans and prohibitions of those ways yes, it gets my attention.

Thats not a call to violence, yes that's right, guns owners who are not maniacs, and won't threaten to kill you, hard to think about is it?

 

[George]

You go back to picking out individual states. This means nothing when they are surrounded by other states that do not have gun control.

Do these states have border firearms inspection points? No! In other words, firearms are virtually no more difficult to access than anywhere else in the US. You only have to read the news to see where Mexico is obtaining their firearms. Mexican Gun Laws are a result of the ease with which firearms can be obtained and smuggled across your borders, no wonder they are unenforceable.

So why did the U.K.'s strong gun Laws not work in N. Ireland?

 

[senojekips]

So why did the U.K.'s strong gun Laws not work in N. Ireland?

George, lets get this debate above the level of desperate stupidity,

The answer is: For the same reason as Hamas doesn't recognise Israeli law,... or are you saying that the situation on the sttreets of the US has degenerated into civil war?

As I've said all along, single biggest stumbling block to any form of sensible legislation in the US is people who just don't want the present situation to change, and will use any reason to avoid the real issues.

 

[senojekips]

No I am quoting a way of life, of what I have experiance in, and when people who do not understand it that want to threaten that way, which is not part of the gun crime problem, with unthought bans and prohibitions of those ways yes, it gets my attention.

Thats not a call to violence, yes that's right, guns owners who are not maniacs, and won't threaten to kill you, hard to think about is it?

You are talking rubbish, avoiding anything that will lessen the problem and that is where you become part of the problem. You are as bad as those who do the crimes, because in effect you support the laxity that allows them to commit the crimes.

Proposed legislation is far from unthought, in fact I would say that it has been thought over in far greater detail and far more even handedly than you have. In short, it is persons such as yourself who are in large part, the cause of the problem and the longer you persist, the worse it will get. I would say that the truth is, that you just don't care about the crime, you are too interested in your own "rights".

 

[Yossarian]

You are talking rubbish, avoiding anything that will lessen the problem and that is where you become part of the problem. You are as bad as those who do the crimes, because in effect you support the laxity that allows them to commit the crimes.

Proposed legislation is far from unthought, in fact I would say that it has been thought over in far greater detail and far more even handedly than you have. In short, it is persons such as yourself who are in large part, the cause of the problem and the longer you persist, the worse it will get. I would say that the truth is, that you just don't care about the crime, you are too interested in your own "rights".

Mr. Senojekips, I am attacking criminal activity with firearms, not the 2nd amendment itself, what you are saying is right but, Me and people like me are not the problem, I do not know personally one firearm owner who has killed someone, and I know a lot, it's the criminals I am seeking to disarm, not the law abiding citizen.

Disarming good law abiding citizens will not avoid the problem, you say I support it? How, how do I help put the criminal mind to work? How do I support any armed rape or murder?

I do not stand for such actions, but by saying as you said, aparently I am the source of the problem for criminals, how? I do not support such notions, and if you are in the presence of armed crime, would you not wish to arm yoursefl as well?

I will never, ever ever ever ever, feel confortalbe with monopolizing armed criminals with the sole right to bear arms, and will always oppose it, I am not a criminal, and will never intend to assualt and man woman or child with a firearm , so please I and those like me are not the problem, just those who's AMERICAN rights will be violated if we are the ones made to pay for it.