House Democrats Pass Healthcare Reform

[rattler]

Am I to trust this new health care system? I remember when I was paying for medical insurance, I had it for about 3-4 months when I ended up in the ER with a good part of my hand shredded by rusty barbed wire fencing. That whole thing was a mess. My hand and trying to get stitched up & vaccinated.
First ER turned me away, said it looks fine (without removing the bandages).
Second ER took me, shot me full of tetenus vaccine, stitched it back together, and a week later I found out that my full coverage medical....wouldn't cover the ER bill.
Lessons like that taught me that I'm better off fixing myself instead of going to a doctor or ER.

If I understand everything right (which I doubt, our system is so many lightyears different from yours that I sometimes as European don´t even grab the basics), this won´t happen anymore to anyone in your situation under the new law.

And your a Vet correct? Guess what? I am paying for you through Veterans Affairs. Do you hear me complaining about it? Answer: NO

That's the utter hypocrisy I hear from the right. They don't want to pay for anyone else plan but they don't want anyone to touch their government plan either. Remember the women who screamed at Biden "We don't want your Socialism (referring to HCR), -dont you touch my medicare". I wanted to reach through the screen and give her reality check B**** slap. (Medicare being the biggest most expensive government social program out there). To this day I wonder if that women was selfish, stupid, or both.

And why stop at healthcare? I don't want to pay for useless wars in Iraq, subsides for agro-businesses, bank bailouts, useless weapon projects, bridges to nowhere in Alaska population: 50. I could list a thousand things far more useless than healthcare. Think I was given the choice? At least this actual helps people who need it. We in America, need to stop being so selfish. Everything we are now is defined by greed and excess.

If you read the Bill, there was nothing about a tax increase EXCEPT for those holding a "Cadillac Health Plan", and if your a public employee you probably don't have, unless you happen to own the city you work in. So no worries about your taxes going up.

What we need is a single payer system. This is how it works: The government creates a fund. Taxes which everyone pays are aloted into the fund. When you need to pay medical bills money is withdrawn from that fund. Some things are not covered (but that's what HMOs are for). Things like elective surgury, certain types of medication, etc, but the fund covers all the important stuff.

Advantages to the system: Its fair (everyone is covered), there is no HMO to deal with (they are optional), it saves money, It provides competition to the HMOs and it actually works! All first world countries have such a system or a variety of it. We are the only country stuck with the crap system that we have now.

You ask why did we have something we know was crap? You can thank your friends on the rightwing for that. They are the ones who killed the public option, that was our first step in breaking away from the for-profit system we have now. The GOP and their HMO lobbyists killed it.

Well, while not going long in every detail here with mmarsh, but one thing re really got right on the spot: The Right is always advocationg a "compassionate donors" system to take care of the woed of this planet, but when hammer is going to hit nail, they bug out: It is *no* (not even moral) obligation, hypocrisy allright:

Hypocrisy is the act of persistently pretending to hold beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does throw overboard when it comes to himself to comply with what he stated earlier. Hypocrisy is thus a kind of lie. For example, a man who complains of cars speeding down his street, but speeds himself would be considered a hypocrite, in Spanish and German we have it shorter: "Preaching water while drinking wine".

This definition (a mix of sources and my personal take) applies very well to this kind of people.

What is wrong with paying taxes or insurance? The idea behind both is clear, logical and even makes sense not only in the broad (national) scope (discussion on how money coming through those channels is administered or not is for a secondary level, I agree there always are forms to improve it, much is wasted, more so as times are a´changing more rapidly with every decade):

Life of each individual (you, me) is covered by some kind of statistics drawn from large numbers (300+ millions in the case of US). From the health POV (for the individual) it is a mix of genetical disposition, cultural life style, opportunities and barriers (economical setup from start, education, know-how-in-time) and character. The last item influences least (you can have the best character dispostion, but the probabilityof becoming ill still mainly stems from your genes, family/environment examples to learn from, etc. ).

Statisctics says: X people in the US will develop a form of cancer every year, differently distributed over age: 1.7 Million contract cancer roughly every year, 700.000 die from it (2007 numbers USUS: http://www.cancer.org/docroot/STT/STT_0.asp, DL "Global Cancer Facts & Figures 2007").

Average cost p.p. (10 yrs ago, Medicare data 2001 US: http://www.usnews.com/health/family...costs-for-cancer-treatment-soar.html?PageNr=2) are around 45.000 per annum, with an average survival rate of 7 yrs that makes 300.000+ per year per person (Medicare has a 20% pay on drugs and treatment, that still would be 60k per victim to raise).

Now, *you* could be one of the ppl catching it, or me. At a polulation of 320 Millions this means you have a *basic* chance of 6% every year (not age corrected) to get cancer and to face (if you are on medicare, private will chuck you out when your contract ends at the current system) the average 60k from your own pocket - or not be treated after a certain stage and age.

What better idea do you have to reduce your 6% risk anually for having to confront 60,000$ over your life time (for one illness only!, multiply by 8 for all illnesses) to a 100% risk of having to confront 1.800$ anually over life time (for *all* illnesses!).

Accumulate your 6% basic risk over you estimated life time (US: 78.2 yrs, 75+ as male; interestingly US is only position #38 in terms of life expectancy worldwide - 195 nations, all Europs are way ahead and also Canada and the Aussies: Spain #6, France #10, Canada #11, Germany #23, even Martinique is #18! - and this bad result is attributed to so many ppl dying young becase they cannot afford treatment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy) and you will see that you end up with some 97.000$ overall to pay stretched out over 57 yrs (assumed ingress age 18), and, as said before, this is for *all* your potential illnesses you might contract over those 75 yrs. Tell me again that this is stupid, and then, plz, prove it (your insurances use the same data to chuck you out). A small price to pay to live 3 yrs longer as we do in Spain, no? Also economically makes sense: 3 yrs life of anybody not working still create around 54k in revenues for the TurnoverPerCapita, if you have a business you will understand that having every client 3 yrs longer is an interesting perspective...)

The idea of insurance always has been that the guys who are lucky to not have an accident/illness/fire/whateverDisaster are paying for the few unlucky every year that run into trouble normally outside of the scope of a normal person to deal with economically.

(The idea of taxes also: *Everybody* has to pay for having roads, even if 12% of people never will use them. OTOH *those* will pay equally with their taxes for schools, even if 35% of people never have children, etc. ...)

Folks, get real over there, start to do your calculations (as in "calculate!", get the machine out and apply statistics, present us here with the numbers, dont let others "think" for you...) and don´t succumb to the brainwashing propaganda the interested parties like insurances are submitting you to to achieve *their* goals (making more with less) without contrasting it with *your* own maths, it is fairly easy to see everybody will be basically better off economically (and the nation) and even live longer with the new law, the insurance companies might take a (well deserved: They have not been following the basical principle of charging-for-covering since a long time anymore) hit, though.

Rattler

 

[wolfen]

But you already are paying for someone else. Example: Medicare, Medicade, the VA, SCHIPS, FEHBP, there are tons of federal programs that provide healthcare to specific groups. The only ones NOT getting Government healthcare are ordinary private citizens.

Furthermore if you are a Public Employee you might (probably) have a local state health plan -which means someone else is paying for yours. And your a Vet correct? Guess what? I am paying for you through Veterans Affairs. Do you hear me complaining about it? Answer: NO

That's the utter hypocrisy I hear from the right. They don't want to pay for anyone else plan but they don't want anyone to touch their government plan either. Remember the women who screamed at Biden "We don't want your Socialism (referring to HCR), -dont you touch my medicare". I wanted to reach through the screen and give her reality check B**** slap. (Medicare being the biggest most expensive government social program out there). To this day I wonder if that women was selfish, stupid, or both.

And why stop at healthcare? I don't want to pay for useless wars in Iraq, subsides for agro-businesses, bank bailouts, useless weapon projects, bridges to nowhere in Alaska population: 50. I could list a thousand things far more useless than healthcare. Think I was given the choice? At least this actual helps people who need it. We in America, need to stop being so selfish. Everything we are now is defined by greed and excess.

If you read the Bill, there was nothing about a tax increase EXCEPT for those holding a "Cadillac Health Plan", and if your a public employee you probably don't have, unless you happen to own the city you work in. So no worries about your taxes going up.

What we need is a single payer system. This is how it works: The government creates a fund. Taxes which everyone pays are aloted into the fund. When you need to pay medical bills money is withdrawn from that fund. Some things are not covered (but that's what HMOs are for). Things like elective surgury, certain types of medication, etc, but the fund covers all the important stuff.

Advantages to the system: Its fair (everyone is covered), there is no HMO to deal with (they are optional), it saves money, It provides competition to the HMOs and it actually works! All first world countries have such a system or a variety of it. We are the only country stuck with the crap system that we have now.

You ask why did we have something we know was crap? You can thank your friends on the rightwing for that. They are the ones who killed the public option, that was our first step in breaking away from the for-profit system we have now. The GOP and their HMO lobbyists killed it.

Lets get one thing straight right here and now, I don;t get Va health care, when I was discharged I was labeled a disabled vet given one years pay in a lump sum and told " see ya sorry about your back, hope you get better" ALL my benefits ran out 90 days later, My city insurance costs me money, I pay about the same as I paid when I worked at Tread Quarters, and since my back was a preexisting condition, thank God I'm not fully dialed yet and bale to work cause guess what....my back isn't covered, so before you even start to think you pay ANYTHING for my health care, you might want to remember this, I pay for MY own health care, the city I work for pays their part just like every other employer, I get NOTHING free, I ask for NOTHING FREE. And I honor ANY veteran of the United States Military that does get free health care, because basically THEY EARNED IT!

I know I already pay somebody else's health care, along with my own, thats what I'm sick and friggin tired of, people need to get off their lazy asses and get a job to pay their own part, not leach off everybody else.
Obama care will cost ME more money in taxes, the "cadi plans" will get the bennies like they always do, and what about Congress and the senate? theirs is free, if this Obamacare is so good, why doesn't congress use it on themselves?
I just heard a commercial trying to ram this down my throat about how this plan will save the country 143 billion in debt, thats just friggin great since his health care reform will only cost a few trillion.
You say the advantages to the program is that everybody is covered? Yea right. theres no way in hell that will ever happen

 

[mmarsh]

Wolfen

I am sorry to hear about you medical situation, but the point remains. By your own admission someone else did pay for you. You got a year lump sum + 90 days do you think that money was on the house? That was taxpayer money.
Perhaps it wasn't much, perhaps you deserved more or better care, but its a lot more than I ever got which was zero. As I said: People always want to cut someone else's benefits never their own.

I agree our vets deserve the best care possible but not at the expense of everyone else. You cannot honestly expect people to pay into the VA when they cannot even afford healthcare for themselves or their families. I will happily pay for someone else care as long as I and my family are also covered. I respect our vets, but we don't live in a North Korean type society where the military gets all the advantages and everyone else is made to starve.

As for people without insurance being lazy. No offence intended, but that's a very naive+ignorant comment to make. I worked for Egghead Software for 3 years doing about 35 hours a week as a part time employee. My manager deliberately made sure I never worked more that 35H because otherwise by NY law she would have had to make me full time and pay for health benefits.
This was done deliberately and there are millions of Americans who are in precisely the same situation I was 15 years ago. People don't have insurence because its too expensive and they cannot afford it.

This is an amendment working its way through congress that will require employers pay for health insurance for any person working over 20H, how much you wanna bet the GOP attempts to block that too? How about a case of Belgian Beer vs. Domestic (something good though, not piss ).

You think I could afford an HMO premium at $80 a month making only $6.50 an hour? I couldn't even afford my own apartment, I had to live with my parents and I was doing 4 hours of night school most nights. But obviously, according to you, I was simply lazy. That explains everything.

The Bill costs $950 Billion, not even one Trillion and only raises taxes on the most expensive health plans, Look it up yourself if you don't believe me. It saves $140 Billion

And BTW a system that cover all citizens (what we call universal healthcare) exists in most other civilized countries. Even the Chinese with their Billion+ population have a system, so do countries that are poor like Cuba. It is only the US that clings on to this expensive and inept system that has no system at all for the entire of its population. So Yes I think its absolutely possible to have such a system back at home, in fact I think we eventually will. The question is how much time will it take to ditch the old one, the HMOs will make every attempt to resist any change.

Furthermore you are lucky to have some insurance. But say you need a $400,000 operation on your back, you think your HMO is going to be there for you...good luck, they probably cover the asperin. Ill stick with a government plan.

I have to admit your're a mystery to me. You agree the system is sh** but you seem against any attempt to try and reform it, which is exactly what the CEOs of the healthcare industry you despise want. I don't want people to go through what I did.

 

[Chukpike]

It is amazing to read some of the completely inaccurate bilge brought up about VA Health Care, it just shows how silly a thread about Health Care is. No one here brings up anything about what will be accomplished by the Health Care plan.

Those who support it see 35 million people getting Health Care. Nothing about when or what kind of care.

As far as paying Health benefits for Veterans it works on a scale.

Service related injuries are mostly fully covered for life.
Non service related Health issues are not covered. (Although, as of this year, personnel leaving military service are eligible to get two years of VA Health Care upon separation).

So implying that the government is "covering" veterans Health Care is wrong and has nothing to do with this government Health Care program.

Most it might do is serve as a model for the how effective the Obama Health Care plan will be. Which should scare the H*ll out of you, as current backlog for veterans cases is around 100.000.

 

[George]

Only been a couple of years since the VA health care scandal, of course for Dems that wasn't an example of Govt health care in action, but an opportunity to bash Bush.

 

[Czin]

Only been a couple of years since the VA health care scandal, of course for Dems that wasn't an example of Govt health care in action, but an opportunity to bash Bush.

Nitpick: Bush was the kind of man who was ridiculously easy to make fun of. His quotes alone offer an veritable gold mine of comedy.

 

[Rob Henderson]

It is amazing to read some of the completely inaccurate bilge brought up about VA Health Care, it just shows how silly a thread about Health Care is. No one here brings up anything about what will be accomplished by the Health Care plan.

Those who support it see 35 million people getting Health Care. Nothing about when or what kind of care.

As far as paying Health benefits for Veterans it works on a scale.

Service related injuries are mostly fully covered for life.
Non service related Health issues are not covered. (Although, as of this year, personnel leaving military service are eligible to get two years of VA Health Care upon separation).

So implying that the government is "covering" veterans Health Care is wrong and has nothing to do with this government Health Care program.

Most it might do is serve as a model for the how effective the Obama Health Care plan will be. Which should scare the H*ll out of you, as current backlog for veterans cases is around 100.000.

http://www.banks.com/blogs/mortgages/2010/03/22/10-benefits-of-the-healthcare-reform-bill/

10 IMMEDIATE benefits of the health care reform bill. How's that for "nothing about when or what kind of care"?

 

[wolfen]

http://www.banks.com/blogs/mortgages/2010/03/22/10-benefits-of-the-healthcare-reform-bill/

10 IMMEDIATE benefits of the health care reform bill. How's that for "nothing about when or what kind of care"?

the only thing I saw that even comes close to benefiting anybody in my house is the kids on your plan til their 17th birthday, and that will benefit my kids, and from what I hear ( haven't verified it yet) I can't take them off if they don;t want to be taken off. which is a good thing for them if they can't get insurance, but a bad thing for me if I was planning to drop them and save money after they turn 18, not that I'd drop my own children, but still.

 

[wolfen]

Wolfen

I am sorry to hear about you medical situation, but the point remains. By your own admission someone else did pay for you. You got a year lump sum + 90 days do you think that money was on the house? That was taxpayer money.
Perhaps it wasn't much, perhaps you deserved more or better care, but its a lot more than I ever got which was zero. As I said: People always want to cut someone else's benefits never their own.

Yea MY taxes too, EVERY veteran who served honorably deserves the free medical they were promised, not this bull crap we get.

I agree our vets deserve the best care possible but not at the expense of everyone else. You cannot honestly expect people to pay into the VA when they cannot even afford healthcare for themselves or their families. I will happily pay for someone else care as long as I and my family are also covered. I respect our vets, but we don't live in a North Korean type society where the military gets all the advantages and everyone else is made to starve.

taxes are SUPPOSED to cover that

As for people without insurance being lazy. No offence intended, but that's a very naive+ignorant comment to make. I worked for Egghead Software for 3 years doing about 35 hours a week as a part time employee. My manager deliberately made sure I never worked more that 35H because otherwise by NY law she would have had to make me full time and pay for health benefits.
This was done deliberately and there are millions of Americans who are in precisely the same situation I was 15 years ago. People don't have insurence because its too expensive and they cannot afford it.

Ok let me clarify on that. the ones too dam lazy to even try to get a job,

This is an amendment working its way through congress that will require employers pay for health insurance for any person working over 20H, how much you wanna bet the GOP attempts to block that too? How about a case of Belgian Beer vs. Domestic (something good though, not piss ).

Personally I think you should be offered company health insurance no matter how many hours you work for a company

You think I could afford an HMO premium at $80 a month making only $6.50 an hour? I couldn't even afford my own apartment, I had to live with my parents and I was doing 4 hours of night school most nights. But obviously, according to you, I was simply lazy. That explains everything.

Like I said before the ones too dam lazy to even look for a job

The Bill costs $950 Billion, not even one Trillion and only raises taxes on the most expensive health plans, Look it up yourself if you don't believe me. It saves $140 Billion

How good are you at math? subtract 140 from 950, even if it really is under a trillion that still leaves 810 Billion to make up where? gonna take that away from the old people too?

And BTW a system that cover all citizens (what we call universal healthcare) exists in most other civilized countries. Even the Chinese with their Billion+ population have a system, so do countries that are poor like Cuba. It is only the US that clings on to this expensive and inept system that has no system at all for the entire of its population. So Yes I think its absolutely possible to have such a system back at home, in fact I think we eventually will. The question is how much time will it take to ditch the old one, the HMOs will make every attempt to resist any change.

And yet your boy obama backed off of a free health care system just to get his precious broken bill passed in a hurry before America figures out how much it will REALLY cost in the long run

Furthermore you are lucky to have some insurance. But say you need a $400,000 operation on your back, you think your HMO is going to be there for you...good luck, they probably cover the asperin. Ill stick with a government plan.

gee I get that from the free veterans health care I can get now, why would I even need another govt program that helps me?

I have to admit your're a mystery to me. You agree the system is sh** but you seem against any attempt to try and reform it, which is exactly what the CEOs of the healthcare industry you despise want. I don't want people to go through what I did.

you notice I said a few dozen posts ago that eth health care system is not what needs reform? I'll say it again.the American Health care system doesn't need reform, what needs reform is the INSURANCE COMPANIES WHO RUN THE AMERICAN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM. I have NEVER been denied health care, BUT there have been MANY times when the doctor can't do this unless I want to pay for it myself because the INSURANCE company wont cover it.
the United States Government no longer works for the benefit of the American People, they work for the benifit of themselves and the high paying insurance companies, obama proved that when he bailed them out along with the crocked bankers.

 

[Rob Henderson]

the only thing I saw that even comes close to benefiting anybody in my house is the kids on your plan til their 17th birthday, and that will benefit my kids, and from what I hear ( haven't verified it yet) I can't take them off if they don;t want to be taken off. which is a good thing for them if they can't get insurance, but a bad thing for me if I was planning to drop them and save money after they turn 18, not that I'd drop my own children, but still.

Kids stay on the plan until their 27th birthday, not their 17th birthday. They can stay on their parents' plan up through 26 years of age.

And just because it doesn't affect your house directly doesn't mean it won't help about 35 million Americans.

 

[Chukpike]

http://www.banks.com/blogs/mortgages/2010/03/22/10-benefits-of-the-healthcare-reform-bill/

10 IMMEDIATE benefits of the health care reform bill. How's that for "nothing about when or what kind of care"?

Great, after ten pages of bilge you post a link, couldn't even post the 10 benefits, so you proved my point. No real discussion of the Obama Heath Care Bill.

Thanks for agreeing with me.:thumb:

 

[wolfen]

Kids stay on the plan until their 27th birthday, not their 17th birthday. They can stay on their parents' plan up through 26 years of age.

And just because it doesn't affect your house directly doesn't mean it won't help about 35 million Americans.

Yea that was a typo I meant 27, not 17

Rob helping 35 million Americans is a good thing, helping ALL Americans is the best thing Obama says he can help ALL Americans, I have yet to see it in any bill he's signed. Oh and I head on the news that one of the "fixes to health care" includes a student loan fix.................tell me how a student loan fix helps my health care?
call me old fashioned but I feel a status quo coming about in the white house disguised as "change"

 

[Rob Henderson]

Yea that was a typo I meant 27, not 17

Figured as much. Just didn't want folks getting the wrong information. Apparently *some* people are too lazy to click the link, and could thereby be mislead by someone else's post.

Rob helping 35 million Americans is a good thing, helping ALL Americans is the best thing Obama says he can help ALL Americans, I have yet to see it in any bill he's signed. Oh and I head on the news that one of the "fixes to health care" includes a student loan fix.................tell me how a student loan fix helps my health care?
call me old fashioned but I feel a status quo coming about in the white house disguised as "change"

35 million is just the beginning. Realize that President Obama has only been in office for a little over a year. Just imagine what he's gonna do with 7 more!

Student loan fixes will encourage more children to attend college, seeing as one of the biggest speed bumps on the road to higher education is financing.

More children going to college = more doctors, more nurses, more specialists, more lawyers, more pharmaceutical reps, more scientists.

More doctors, nurses, lawyers, specialists = More widely available health care.

More pharmaceutical reps = more people who genuinely care about medicine and getting that medicine to people for low prices.

More scientists = more people who can develop medicines, thus potentially finding cures for diseases, making more effective medications, more specific treatments for diseases, etc.

Surely more kids getting higher education will have a direct benefit to health care.

 

[mmarsh]

Wolfen

You missed the two key works about saving of this law. Its $150 Billion PER YEAR not total. It designed to pat itself off with a profit within a decade (about $1.2 Trillion). Do you really think they would have written a law that costs more than it saves total? I know DC is stupid but its not that stupid.

You think all employers should offer heath insurance, that's a start. But what about people who lose their jobs? (10.2% unemployment) what about those who are too infirm, old, or young to work, what about students? There are millions of people who don't qualify simply for one reason or another aren't working...and its not laziness. How do they get insurance?

Also who runs the health insurance fund? The government or HMOs? We agree on the fact that for profit schemes don't work because the CEO's cannot be trusted to run the business honestly. But you don't seem to want to want a government fund, so who is going to administer it?

You could do a private non-profit organization but that would still require a certain level of government intervention, otherwise people will simply steal from it, it be like ENRON and their crooked auditors where the entire senior management was robbing the company blind. Sooner or later at some level you have to bring the government in, there is no other way. And as I said before: this is the model that almost all other major countries use EXCEPT the USA. So if its good enough for the the modern world its good enough for us.

Personally I'd just fold the other programs like Medicare, Medicade, the VA under one giant umbrella and let the government do it and be done with it.

 

[George]

Figured as much. Just didn't want folks getting the wrong information. Apparently *some* people are too lazy to click the link, and could thereby be mislead by someone else's post.

35 million is just the beginning. Realize that President Obama has only been in office for a little over a year. Just imagine what he's gonna do with 7 more!

Student loan fixes will encourage more children to attend college, seeing as one of the biggest speed bumps on the road to higher education is financing.

More children going to college = more doctors, more nurses, more specialists, more lawyers, more pharmaceutical reps, more scientists.

More doctors, nurses, lawyers, specialists = More widely available health care.

More pharmaceutical reps = more people who genuinely care about medicine and getting that medicine to people for low prices.

More scientists = more people who can develop medicines, thus potentially finding cures for diseases, making more effective medications, more specific treatments for diseases, etc.

Surely more kids getting higher education will have a direct benefit to health care.

Wolfen

You missed the two key works about saving of this law. Its $150 Billion PER YEAR not total. It designed to pat itself off with a profit within a decade (about $1.2 Trillion). Do you really think they would have written a law that costs more than it saves total? I know DC is stupid but its not that stupid.

You think all employers should offer heath insurance, that's a start. But what about people who lose their jobs? (10.2% unemployment) what about those who are too infirm, old, or young to work, what about students? There are millions of people who don't qualify simply for one reason or another aren't working...and its not laziness. How do they get insurance?

Also who runs the health insurance fund? The government or HMOs? We agree on the fact that for profit schemes don't work because the CEO's cannot be trusted to run the business honestly. But you don't seem to want to want a government fund, so who is going to administer it?

You could do a private non-profit organization but that would still require a certain level of government intervention, otherwise people will simply steal from it, it be like ENRON and their crooked auditors where the entire senior management was robbing the company blind. Sooner or later at some level you have to bring the government in, there is no other way. And as I said before: this is the model that almost all other major countries use EXCEPT the USA. So if its good enough for the the modern world its good enough for us.

Personally I'd just fold the other programs like Medicare, Medicade, the VA under one giant umbrella and let the government do it and be done with it.

The total takeover of student laons from the private sector has nothing to do directly with health care, just part of Obama's "were going to take the greatest Nation on Earth & change it", into a centrally planned economy. They will decide what areas get loans. An increase in specialists, doctors, nurses, lawyers(as if we didn't have too many now). I can see it now, people will really want to go into debt studying for fields that the govt will limit entry & pay.
Looks like someone believes the cost fantasy that was used to sell this crap. Big cuts in MediCare, not going to happen, double counting savings, The CBO has to use figures presented to it, regardless of how out of touch they may be for thier estimates. Got prime real estate here in Fla for you if you believe cost are going down with out cutting services.

 

[Czin]

You george are far too idealistic, what's going to stop the private sector from cutting out insurance from sick people to save money? This reform will also force pharmacies to research cures, not treatments meant to force their customers to keep on coming back.

The world of business is every bit as corrupt as the world of politics. It's just that the former doesn't have any armed forces to back up their words.....yet.

 

[wolfen]

Figured as much. Just didn't want folks getting the wrong information. Apparently *some* people are too lazy to click the link, and could thereby be mislead by someone else's post.

35 million is just the beginning. Realize that President Obama has only been in office for a little over a year. Just imagine what he's gonna do with 7 more!

Student loan fixes will encourage more children to attend college, seeing as one of the biggest speed bumps on the road to higher education is financing.

More children going to college = more doctors, more nurses, more specialists, more lawyers, more pharmaceutical reps, more scientists.

More doctors, nurses, lawyers, specialists = More widely available health care.

More pharmaceutical reps = more people who genuinely care about medicine and getting that medicine to people for low prices.

More scientists = more people who can develop medicines, thus potentially finding cures for diseases, making more effective medications, more specific treatments for diseases, etc.

Surely more kids getting higher education will have a direct benefit to health care.

And get jobs where?
Remember.....obama says the economy is getting better, with a 10.2% unemployment rate and more jobs going away evey day cause there isn't enough money to keep going

 

[wolfen]

Wolfen

You missed the two key works about saving of this law. Its $150 Billion PER YEAR not total. It designed to pat itself off with a profit within a decade (about $1.2 Trillion). Do you really think they would have written a law that costs more than it saves total? I know DC is stupid but its not that stupid.

Lets remember this conversation in 4 years and see who' is right, if your right I'll say I'm wrong, will say your wrong if I'm right?

You think all employers should offer heath insurance, that's a start. But what about people who lose their jobs? (10.2% unemployment) what about those who are too infirm, old, or young to work, what about students? There are millions of people who don't qualify simply for one reason or another aren't working...and its not laziness. How do they get insurance?

Yes I think all employers should offer health insurance to the vest of their ability. 10.2% unemployment? I think obama should have fixed that first, students? are you referring to children in grade school of college students? the way it is now they can be on their parents insurance till they are 27, that means little Johnny can get married drive a car have a job drink, and hell even die for his country, all the time still being under mommie and daddy's insurance, 27? Come on get real. And again I find myself saying the currently unimployed are NOT the ones I call lazy, here we go again the ones I call lazy are (1) the welfare Recipients who have never bothered to look for a job in their life cause good old uncle Sam gives them money. (2) the able bodied people who just don;t give a crap about doing anything except smokeing pot and have never worked a day in their lives, to me both the above are what I call human debris, and should be hauled to the local landfill!

[
Also who runs the health insurance fund? The government or HMOs? We agree on the fact that for profit schemes don't work because the CEO's cannot be trusted to run the business honestly. But you don't seem to want to want a government fund, so who is going to administer it?

You could do a private non-profit organization but that would still require a certain level of government intervention, otherwise people will simply steal from it, it be like ENRON and their crooked auditors where the entire senior management was robbing the company blind. Sooner or later at some level you have to bring the government in, there is no other way. And as I said before: this is the model that almost all other major countries use EXCEPT the USA. So if its good enough for the the modern world its good enough for us.

Personally I'd just fold the other programs like Medicare, Medicade, the VA under one giant umbrella and let the government do it and be done with it.

Why not pass laws that require the insurance companies to fully disclose where the money goes, work on lowering health care COSTS, ever read what you get charged for at the doctor? I don't know about you over there in France, but personally I don;t see how an X-ray picture should cost over a hundred fifty each. create a agency who's only responsibility is health care oversight, they will make sure everything is fair for everybody, and they are responsible to the PEOPLE not the President, meaning, they screw the pooch, THEY get replaced by somebody who can do the job fairly, and the wrong committed against a person should immediately, be righted. but then there we are again with a govt agency, so I'm contradicting myself with that statement, but its the best I can come up with, thats why I say make them responsible to the people, not the govt.

 

[Rob Henderson]

And get jobs where?
Remember.....obama says the economy is getting better, with a 10.2% unemployment rate and more jobs going away evey day cause there isn't enough money to keep going

Doctors and nurses will never go out of business. As morbid as that is.

 

[-- Dusty]

Yeah, and Obama is now making an army of 6,000 so they can "promote good health". Can you say New Age SS?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKmJwm9nSLU