Greece rejects joint maneuver with Israel against Iran

[I3BrigPvSk]

I believe this thinking is a major part of the problem it assumes this issue is solely the "perception" of the Palestinians when it isn't.

Now this is my guess and it is just a guess as I don't know a huge number of Israeli's or Palestinians but if you were to separate the rank and file Israeli and Palestinian you would discover that they would quite happily live together peacefully and I base this on the fact that the vast majority of people just want to get on with their lives.

The problem is that both sides are being ruled by fanatic's or zealot's if you please and as such neither of them really want peace, the Hamas and co can't accept peace because that will strip them of power, Israel can't accept peace because that will make them irrelevant to the world and worst of all it will confine them to borders.

The only solution to this mess is to take the leadership of all parties concerned out and shoot them and keep repeating this process until you find a bunch that value life above power.

Alternatively you can fall back to my original catch all solution and nuke the entire region thus solving a lot of the worlds ills.

To achieve a change, the perceptions of the others must change. It begins there; I have met many Palestinians, and discussed Israel, the conflict, and their attitudes toward Israel. The surprising attitude I faced from them was, they had more hostile feelings toward the Egyptians than to the Israelis, especially if they were from the Gaza strip. Another thing was the majority of the Palestinians were more pragmatic than many of the members of this forum. To reach a peace in the region, the people can do it as they have done in other places, the collapse of totalitarian governments in East Europe, especially Romania. What we are calling "the Arabic Spring" started by the people, not by their own governments

 

[Der Alte]

OUR LAND given to Abraham by God.

From Torah, in "Genesis":

"God appears to Abram and says, "To your descendants I will give this land."

This means Arabs and Muslims have the same right. Hagar (the mother of Ishmael) was from Egypt. Ishmael the son of Abraham was brought up among arabs. His decedents were Arabs. And not to forget that Mohammad the Muslim's Prophet was Ishmael's decedent...so they have the same right just like Jews???

The Palestinians could equally well claim that their God gave it to them. The ancient Israelis lived there thousands of years ago. If everyone had the right to claim land because their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago, there would be chaos worldwide. Therefore, if there were any effective international law, such a right would never be included in it. No-one's objecting to Jews having a country of their own. But they weren't morally entitled to take another people's country without their consent. And that consent was plainly lacking.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

From Torah, in "Genesis":

"God appears to Abram and says, "To your descendants I will give this land."

This means Arabs and Muslims have the same right. Hagar (the mother of Ishmael) was from Egypt. Ishmael the son of Abraham was brought up among arabs. His decedents were Arabs. And not to forget that Mohammad the Muslim's Prophet was Ishmael's decedent...so they have the same right just like Jews???

The Palestinians could equally well claim that their God gave it to them. The ancient Israelis lived there thousands of years ago. If everyone had the right to claim land because their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago, there would be chaos worldwide. Therefore, if there were any effective international law, such a right would never be included in it. No-one's objecting to Jews having a country of their own. But they weren't morally entitled to take another people's country without their consent. And that consent was plainly lacking.

Which God? Many Palestinians aren't Muslims. There is another thing we need to take under consideration; the Palestinians still have a clan based society, so to reach a peace agreement with Israel require not only one agreement, its require many peace agreements

 

[MontyB]

From Torah, in "Genesis":

"God appears to Abram and says, "To your descendants I will give this land."

This means Arabs and Muslims have the same right. Hagar (the mother of Ishmael) was from Egypt. Ishmael the son of Abraham was brought up among arabs. His decedents were Arabs. And not to forget that Mohammad the Muslim's Prophet was Ishmael's decedent...so they have the same right just like Jews???

The Palestinians could equally well claim that their God gave it to them. The ancient Israelis lived there thousands of years ago. If everyone had the right to claim land because their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago, there would be chaos worldwide. Therefore, if there were any effective international law, such a right would never be included in it. No-one's objecting to Jews having a country of their own. But they weren't morally entitled to take another people's country without their consent. And that consent was plainly lacking.

Well there ya go I grew up only knowing one Hagar...

We learn something new each day, besides it seems applicable to the thread.

Which God? Many Palestinians aren't Muslims. There is another thing we need to take under consideration; the Palestinians still have a clan based society, so to reach a peace agreement with Israel require not only one agreement, its require many peace agreements

The problem is that you are arguing with people living in a bubble of time, history started when they say it did and it ends when they say it does what happened outside that bubble has no effect on the story, it is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "LALALALALALAALALAL I cant hear you" when ever something that does not fit your time line.

For the last 65 years Israel has been able to hide behind two phrases "Remember the holocaust" and "Never again" and relied heavily on Western guilt for the holocaust to get away with anything and everything but I think the one thing Israel needs to come to grips with fast is that current generations do not remember the holocaust nor do they feel guilty for it, because if they do not figure this simple reality out they will have painted themselves into a corner with no way out.

For the record there is also a growing number of atheists and agnostics in the world that don't buy into the "But god said" story either.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

Well there ya go I grew up only knowing one Hagar...

We learn something new each day, besides it seems applicable to the thread.





The problem is that you are arguing with people living in a bubble of time, history started when it says they did and it ends when they say it does what happened outside that bubble has no effect on the story, it is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "LALALALALALAALALAL I cant hear you" when ever something that does not fit your time line.

For the last 65 years Israel has been able to hide behind two phrases "Remember the holocaust" and "Never again" and relied heavily on Western guilt for the holocaust to get away with anything I think the one thing Israel needs to come to grips with fast is that current generations do not remember the holocaust nor do that feel guilty for it because if they do not figure this simple reality out they will have painted themselves into a corner with no way out.

For the record there is also a growing number of atheists and agnostics in the world that don't buy into the "But god said" story either.

The majority or people are not interested in discussions about theology, they want to solve the problem. All countries are using their history to validate their actions.

 

[Cartman]

Well there ya go I grew up only knowing one Hagar...

We learn something new each day, besides it seems applicable to the thread.





The problem is that you are arguing with people living in a bubble of time, history started when they say it did and it ends when they say it does what happened outside that bubble has no effect on the story, it is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "LALALALALALAALALAL I cant hear you" when ever something that does not fit your time line.

For the last 65 years Israel has been able to hide behind two phrases "Remember the holocaust" and "Never again" and relied heavily on Western guilt for the holocaust to get away with anything and everything but I think the one thing Israel needs to come to grips with fast is that current generations do not remember the holocaust nor do they feel guilty for it, because if they do not figure this simple reality out they will have painted themselves into a corner with no way out.

For the record there is also a growing number of atheists and agnostics in the world that don't buy into the "But god said" story either.

basicly what you are saying is that all the israelis are orthodox jews who base their knowledge on the torah and they live in the past?
i myself dont go to the sinagog, i dont pray ofter and i dont always eat kosher food. but it doesnt mean i dont believe in the jewish beliefs. many of the israelis hate the orthodox jews here. they are very similar to the muslims. they spit on women and throw stones at people who drive at shabbat. some of them doesnt support the state of israel because they believe we should come back to this land when the massiah arives. those people are so different than most of the jews in israel... i only mentioned the god issue because he kept mentioning the past and the palestinians history in this land but we were here before them...

 

[hamidreza]

For the last 65 years Israel has been able to hide behind two phrases "Remember the holocaust" and "Never again" and relied heavily on Western guilt for the holocaust to get away with anything and everything but I think the one thing Israel needs to come to grips with fast is that current generations do not remember the holocaust nor do they feel guilty for it, because if they do not figure this simple reality out they will have painted themselves into a corner with no way out.

Exactly. I want to discuss about two matters Ahmadinejad talked about them 6 years ago in the UN annual meeting in New York. I don’t want to say Ahmadinejad is a good person but his questions are provoking. These two matters are:
1- Is the Holocaust true as the Zionist propaganda claim about it? Did really 6000000 people killed in this disaster? If it is true why it is forbidden researching about it but researching about other disasters are not? What is the thing they afraid of it? There are some people in west, who some of them were taken to prison and some of them were exiled, claim that the Holocaust was not as big disaster Zionist say about it.
2- OK. We suppose that all the claims about Holocaust are true. So the question is why the Palestinians should pay it cost? The European did this crime why the Palestinians should give their land to Jews as the compensation? The West closed their eyes to Israelis crimes because they didn’t want to say anything against Jews since of Holocaust they had done it before.
But poor Ahmadinejad was faced to a lot of propaganda instead of getting his answer. As another example they also accuse Ahmadinejad that he said he want to destroy Israeli by war!! Just stupid people can believe this silly matter and unfortunately we have a lot of them in the world.
I am an Iranian and Farsi is my Native language. The thing that Ahmadinejad said was the Israel will be destroyed because it is founded on an absurd theory. It will be destroyed the same as communist which was destroyed in Soviet Union not by war but because of itself.
Just see how do threats to war every day? Iran or Israel? Who has nukes and hasn’t signed the NPT? Iran or Israel? But till there are stupid people there isn’t any problem for Zionist propaganda.

 

[MontyB]

Exactly. I want to discuss about two matters Ahmadinejad talked about them 6 years ago in the UN annual meeting in New York. I don’t want to say Ahmadinejad is a good person but his questions are provoking. These two matters are:
1- Is the Holocaust true as the Zionist propaganda claim about it? Did really 6000000 people killed in this disaster? If it is true why it is forbidden researching about it but research about other disasters are not? What is the thing they afraid of it? There are some people in west, who some of them were taken to prison and some of them were exile, claim that the Holocaust was not as big disaster Zionist say about it.

No my understanding is that between 10 and 12 million people died in that disaster, but as Kurt Tucholsky wrote in Französischer Witz "The death of one man: that is a catastrophe. One hundred thousand deaths: that is a statistic" after a while does it really matter whether it was 10,000 or 10,000,000 they are both impossible numbers to comprehend properly in terms of human life.

Personally I have no idea why it has become unacceptable to question the numbers killed but I can certainly understand why it is unacceptable to deny it happened at all.

In my opinion it is something we should be able to research and debate openly seriously would it be any less of a disaster if it only turned out to be 5.5 million instead of 6 million or would it be more of a disaster if it was 6.5 million?

2- Ok. We suppose that all the claims about Holocaust are true. So the question is why the Palestinians should pay it cost? The European did this crime why the Palestinians should give their land to Jews as the compensation? The West closed their eyes to Israelis crimes because they didn’t want to say anything against Jews since of Holocaust they did it before.
But poor Ahmadinejad was faced to a lot of propaganda instead of getting his answer. As another example they also accuse Ahmadinejad that he said we want to destroy Israeli by war!! Just stupid people can believe this silly matter and unfortunately we have a lot of them in the world.
I am an Iranian and Farsi is my Native language. The things Ahmadinejad said was the Israel will be destroyed because it is founded on an absurd theory. It will be destroyed the same as communist which was destroyed in Soviet Union not by war but because of itself. Just see how threats to war every day? Iran or Israel? Who has nukes and hasn’t signed the NPT? Iran or Israel? But till there are stupid people there isn’t any problem for Zionist propaganda.

No offence but Ahmadinejad should have known better he is a career politician and lives in a world where vested interests twist and manipulate everything he says hell I have no doubt that he does the same to his opposition.

As to whether the Palestinians should pay the cost of the holocaust no they shouldn't have had to but the reason they are comes back to the Western guilt thing again and the fact that the Palestinians were not strong enough to prevent it being imposed on them personally if justice was served Israel would be in Britain, France or Germany after all it was the three of them that screwed over the Palestinians and the Jews.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

No my understanding is that between 10 and 12 million people died in that disaster, but as Kurt Tucholsky wrote in Französischer Witz "The death of one man: that is a catastrophe. One hundred thousand deaths: that is a statistic" after a while does it really matter whether it was 10,000 or 10,000,000 they are both impossible numbers to comprehend properly in terms of human life.

Personally I have no idea why it has become unacceptable to question the numbers killed but I can certainly understand why it is unacceptable to deny it happened at all.

In my opinion it is something we should be able to research and debate openly seriously would it be any less of a disaster if it only turned out to be 5.5 million instead of 6 million or would it be more of a disaster if it was 6.5 million?



No offence but Ahmadinejad should have known better he is a career politician and lives in a world where vested interests twist and manipulate everything he says hell I have no doubt that he does the same to his opposition.

As to whether the Palestinians should pay the cost of the holocaust no they shouldn't have had to but the reason they are comes back to the Western guilt thing again and the fact that the Palestinians were not strong enough to prevent it being imposed on them personally if justice was served Israel would be in Britain, France or Germany after all it was the three of them that screwed over the Palestinians and the Jews.

There is scientific research going on about the holocaust, the actual numbers are moving, I have seen numbers between 5.5 up to 7 million Jews killed. The data is within the 10% margin of error, another problem is the documentation is from the Nazis, but only for the camps and some of the documentations were destroyed, furthermore, the documentations about people in some of the German occupied parts of Europe prior the war, during the war, and after the war is inconsistent as well. Tricky to know how many people killed, if we don't know how many they were from the beginning, all the data is even more inconsistent when it comes to other ethnic groups, political groups, religious groups, and POWs. However, the research is not focusing on the numbers killed, they are researching the steps before the final solution, which is more interesting than the actual numbers, and it doesn't matter if we have 5.5 or 7 million killed.

A Canadian historian said “Adolf Hitler contributed to the creation of Israel”

 

[MontyB]

There is scientific research going on about the holocaust, the actual numbers are moving, I have seen numbers between 5.5 up to 7 million Jews killed. The data is within the 10% margin of error, another problem is the documentation is from the Nazis, but only for the camps and some of the documentations were destroyed, furthermore, the documentations about people in some of the German occupied parts of Europe prior the war, during the war, and after the war is inconsistent as well. Tricky to know how many people killed, if we don't know how many they were from the beginning, all the data is even more inconsistent when it comes to other ethnic groups, political groups, religious groups, and POWs. However, the research is not focusing on the numbers killed, they are researching the steps before the final solution, which is more interesting than the actual numbers, and it doesn't matter if we have 5.5 or 7 million killed.

A Canadian historian said “Adolf Hitler contributed to the creation of Israel”

But now we get into the problem I have here, for some reason the world seems to have forgotten the other 5-7 million that died in concentration camps in fact I am prepared to bet that given the zeal to which we lament the millions of Jews that were killed much of the modern generation have no idea about the fate of Europe's other minorities in this process.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

But now we get into the problem I have here, for some reason the world seems to have forgotten the other 5-7 million that died in concentration camps in fact I am prepared to bet that given the zeal to which we lament the millions of Jews that were killed much of the modern generation have no idea about the fate of Europe's other minorities in this process.

There are especially two groups the scientists at the universities are struggling with, the gypsies and the homosexuals, we have no idea how many they were. The data about the Russian POWs is also very problematic, when the Germans were reluctant and unable of keeping track of how many they were. I would say the other 5-7 million killed during the holocaust is an educated guess. One reason for the total numbers is moving and they have done that since the end of the Cold War, which also complicated the count. They are still finding mass graves of victims, caused by Einsatz gruppen (spelling) this is normally called "the holocaust by bullets."

 

[Cartman]

But now we get into the problem I have here, for some reason the world seems to have forgotten the other 5-7 million that died in concentration camps in fact I am prepared to bet that given the zeal to which we lament the millions of Jews that were killed much of the modern generation have no idea about the fate of Europe's other minorities in this process.

except the jews the natzis killed about 5 million gays, cripples, retards and basicly every person who is different than they are.

 

[MontyB]

Exactly and yet if you ask your average man in the street you would hear that the holocaust was the killing of 6 million Jews not 11-12 million minorities which is why in my opinion the holocaust must be remembered in its entirety not just the Jewish aspect.

 

[senojekips]

Exactly and yet if you ask your average man in the street you would hear that the holocaust was the killing of 6 million Jews not 11-12 million minorities which is why in my opinion the holocaust must be remembered in its entirety not just the Jewish aspect.

In view of that, maybe we could give the mentally incompetent, Homosexuals and Gypsies a country of their own too, where they can use their past problems as an excuse to implement a policy of Ethnic cleansing against the land's previous occupants...

I'm sure we could just turn our head one more time,... couldn't we??

 

[Cartman]

Exactly and yet if you ask your average man in the street you would hear that the holocaust was the killing of 6 million Jews not 11-12 million minorities which is why in my opinion the holocaust must be remembered in its entirety not just the Jewish aspect.

i dont know about other countries but we learn that in school...

 

[senojekips]

i dont know about other countries but we learn that in school...

It would be a better idea if they taught you,that it was a tragedy and you shouldn't be doing the same thing to others.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

Exactly and yet if you ask your average man in the street you would hear that the holocaust was the killing of 6 million Jews not 11-12 million minorities which is why in my opinion the holocaust must be remembered in its entirety not just the Jewish aspect.

I agree, in percentage, the gypsies were hit even harder. There was a group of people killed, which I have problem to classify what they were. When the Germans occupied the Slavic countries, they wanted to turn them into physical labors, servant etc. The Germans wanted to get rid off the people who could be a leader figures and create problems in the future, quite similar as what Pol Pot did many years later. These can be classified as all groups at the same time.

There is something else I think is not so well known about the holocaust, it didn't begin directly when Hitler and the Nazi party reached power. There were these demonization, marginalization, when the reduced their ability to be holding a public office, a business, the confiscation of their businesses and so on. Although, the Nazis didn't really know what to do with the Jews, they were happy if they fled Germany. In the early stage they killed more mentally and physical challenged people than Jews. There was a plan to place them on boats and ship them off, the war changed all that. The not so well known fact for the majority is; what we call the holocaust started after the Wansee conference 1942

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

In view of that, maybe we could give the mentally incompetent, Homosexuals and Gypsies a country of their own too, where they can use their past problems as an excuse to implement a policy of Ethnic cleansing against the land's previous occupants...

I'm sure we could just turn our head one more time,... couldn't we??

I think there are many countries, which are governed by mentally incompetents. A gay country? Cannot last for so long, or can it?
In all seriousness, we can learn and it is time for Israel to do the same. To use the holocaust as an excuse doesn't work anymore and quit guilt trip the rest of the world for what happened. No one denies the crimes committed by the Nazis, learn from what they did and try to avoid similar events all over the world. But I am very cynical about that

I studied the holocaust during my time at the university, but more the steps leading up to the Wansee, it was a part of the program. There was a faculty (Holocaust and Genocide studies) within the International Relation Department; I remember when the professor holding the course was asked "Isn't this very depressing to work with"? He answered, “Yes, but important”. I almost asked him how many genocides have been prevented from here, but I didn't.

What I never do is to demonize other groups, even the surviving victims from the holocaust never blamed the German population for what happened. A population is not evil, individuals are. If we are crossing the line and begin to demonize others, we are not better than the people responsible for the holocaust. Therefore, Israel has something to do and not demonize the Palestinians and they have the same responsibility to do the same.

Israel is the major military power in the area and with power come responsibility. Israel is spending x amount of dollars into the military, they can defend themselves against their neighbors, but it doesn't have the power to enforce their will on other countries, not by themselves anyway. The Israeli military might cannot prevent terrorist attacks from the Palestinians, which have no other choice than to use terrorist tactics, they cannot fight Israel on Israel’s terms. Even the director for the Shin Bet said a few years ago "We have forced the Palestinians into a corner; we will only see more violence.” All the cost to keep the IDF up and what we have is a stalemate and the Israel and the Palestinians have achieved nothing; only a lot of people killed. Israel needs to take the gamble and negotiate with the neighbors and the Palestinians

Sometimes I think this world had been much better if women were controlling it, especially mothers. A mother is always a mother, regardless if she is an Israeli, Palestinian, an Iranian, an American, a Russian, or any other. They are normally very down to Earth and wise.

 

[MontyB]

I agree, in percentage, the gypsies were hit even harder. There was a group of people killed, which I have problem to classify what they were. When the Germans occupied the Slavic countries, they wanted to turn them into physical labors, servant etc. The Germans wanted to get rid off the people who could be a leader figures and create problems in the future, quite similar as what Pol Pot did many years later. These can be classified as all groups at the same time.

There is something else I think is not so well known about the holocaust, it didn't begin directly when Hitler and the Nazi party reached power. There were these demonization, marginalization, when the reduced their ability to be holding a public office, a business, the confiscation of their businesses and so on. Although, the Nazis didn't really know what to do with the Jews, they were happy if they fled Germany. In the early stage they killed more mentally and physical challenged people than Jews. There was a plan to place them on boats and ship them off, the war changed all that. The not so well known fact for the majority is; what we call the holocaust started after the Wansee conference 1942

Stalin made an interesting quote in Feb 1942 when the German army was at the gates of Moscow, he said...
"Hitlers come and go, but Germany and the German people remain." He called on the people not to identify all Germans with the Nazis.
I think it is very important as well to make the distinction between what Germans wanted and Nazi policy.

 

[Cartman]

I agree, in percentage, the gypsies were hit even harder. There was a group of people killed, which I have problem to classify what they were. When the Germans occupied the Slavic countries, they wanted to turn them into physical labors, servant etc. The Germans wanted to get rid off the people who could be a leader figures and create problems in the future, quite similar as what Pol Pot did many years later. These can be classified as all groups at the same time.

There is something else I think is not so well known about the holocaust, it didn't begin directly when Hitler and the Nazi party reached power. There were these demonization, marginalization, when the reduced their ability to be holding a public office, a business, the confiscation of their businesses and so on. Although, the Nazis didn't really know what to do with the Jews, they were happy if they fled Germany. In the early stage they killed more mentally and physical challenged people than Jews. There was a plan to place them on boats and ship them off, the war changed all that. The not so well known fact for the majority is; what we call the holocaust started after the Wansee conference 1942

until 1941 i think or 1939, every jew that could leave germany was encouraged too. until 1938 they acts against jews in germany were mostly propaganda and Legislation in actions like the "one day economic boycott" against jewish owned stores and such. nirenberg laws against the jewish actions. waving the reich flag was illigal for jews. but in 1938 the crystal night was a sign that the natzis officialy went from verbal abuse to violent.