Yup... we fought Iraq for oil

[03USMC]

Do you believe any human deserves to die simply for their existence? I'm not talking criminal records, personal beliefs, or anything like that... Do you think any person deserves to die just because they live?

What I believe and how the world works are two totally different things. Unless you figure out how to wholesale change human nature, that's how it is. No matter how much you want to change the world first you have to figure out how to change human nature. You can preach this all you care to, it changes not one damn thing about reality.

Reality is this. There are people who will kill you for your skin color, your religion (or lack off), your country of orgin, your ethnicity, your choice of clothing even if you have done nothing directly too them. That is reality.

The world is not a pleasant loving caring place where we are all brothers and sisters. The world is ugly, cold and cruel. If you'd walked the places I have instead of the halls of a University you might understand that.

 

[The Other Guy]

Yes, the world is a cold and cruel place. But that does not mean that we should feed into the system and be cold and cruel like everyone else, and blame "human nature" for our own deeds.

 

[03USMC]

Yes, the world is a cold and cruel place. But that does not mean that we should feed into the system and be cold and cruel like everyone else, and blame "human nature" for our own deeds.

Which deeds? I'll stand by anything I have personally done. The decisions made by persons above me I have no control over except to complain within my circle.

 

[A Can of Man]

People will also come and try to kill you and your family for what your great grand father did to their great grand father in some fight that people can barely remember the details of.

Sometimes you find the fight, sometimes the fight finds you.
And when it finds you, you better be good at it. Or have some very good friends who are very good at it. Or die.

 

[bulldogg]

Unsolicited advice to follow:

TOG, you can die for your beliefs, that is your right in our country.

However, do not even dream of being able to change the mind of men who have bled to secure those rights at costs you have merely read about. If someone is trying to kill me or mine I do NOT care why, I only care to stop them dead before they succeed.

 

[A Can of Man]

It's like the whole "I don't kill. If attacked I will die with honor."
Is a pack of BS.
What do you achieve by doing nothing and just dying?
1) You've broken the hearts of a lot of those around you.
2) You've let crime pay.
3) You're dead and you can't fulfill whatever obligations you have.
4) A murderous criminal is still on the loose.

Name one good thing that ever comes about by choosing to die without struggle.
I guess removing someone stupid enough to believe in that stuff from the face of the earth might be one good thing.

 

[Rob Henderson]

There's a difference between rolling over and taking it and thinking that the entire world is out to get you 24/7.

I highly doubt TOG or myself would just sit back and let something happen to us or our family, but we don't go out looking for trouble or expect trouble to be around every corner... I wouldn't bring heat to Chuck E. Cheese...

 

[A Can of Man]

In the case of 5.56, he lives in a world where the possibilities of danger does lurk behind every corner and behind every car door. So it is valid to him, though perhaps on campus, only rarely does it happen to you (though when it does, boy do you wish you had a weapon!).
Me, I'm in the camp that in regular civilian life I may not need protection 99.99% of that time, but that 0.01% is why being prepared mentally and equipment wise is necessary. But other threats include people trying to take my money, take my information etc.
In this country, guns are not legal as are many objects. "Defending" myself with sword for "decoration" may not fly in court. I have the next best thing. I have various home objects that can double as home defense aids in pretty strategic locations in the house. It gives me a slight edge, and the rest I deal with Krav Maga.

 

[mmarsh]

The world is not a pleasant loving caring place where we are all brothers and sisters. The world is ugly, cold and cruel. If you'd walked the places I have instead of the halls of a University you might understand that.

Your're accusing Henderson of living in a bubble, but that description applies to you as well in the exact opposite sense.

If you globe-trot to places where wars, crime, strife, and misery are prevelent that I am not surprised that you have such a bleak view of the world. The fact is you CHOSE to walk where you did. Did you really expect the military/police was going to send you to Fantasy Island when you joined up? The government doesnt send soldiers/police officers like you into places where things are pleasant, they send people like you into places where things are very bad. What you saw was the bad part of the world, but fortunately most of the world isnt like that. Have you ever lived (not visited, actually lived) in a country outside of military/police service where things are calm and peaceful?

Ill agree that there are some particularily nasty parts of the globe, but you really cannot make such a general desciption as the world as some pit. And I say this because like yourself, I too have done my own share of globe-trotting across many continents. I can safely say that most of it isn't too bad. There are places to avoid, but thats exactly what I do: I avoid them.

What your saying is like going to going to the North Pole and then stating "Sh*t! the whole planet is a freaking ice cube". Some of it is, but most of it isnt.

 

[Rob Henderson]

It really doesn't matter mmarsh... Words and breath are wasted on men like them. Better just let them suck on their sores and not pay them any attention.

 

[03USMC]

Your're accusing Henderson of living in a bubble, but that description applies to you as well in the exact opposite sense.

If you globe-trot to places where wars, crime, strife, and misery are prevelent that I am not surprised that you have such a bleak view of the world. The fact is you CHOSE to walk where you did. Did you really expect the military/police was going to send you to Fantasy Island when you joined up? The government doesnt send soldiers/police officers like you into places where things are pleasant, they send people like you into places where things are very bad. What you saw was the bad part of the world, but fortunately most of the world isnt like that. Have you ever lived (not visited, actually lived) in a country outside of military/police service where things are calm and peaceful?

Ill agree that there are some particularily nasty parts of the globe, but you really cannot make such a general desciption as the world as some pit. And I say this because like yourself, I too have done my own share of globe-trotting across many continents. I can safely say that most of it isn't too bad. There are places to avoid, but thats exactly what I do: I avoid them.

What your saying is like going to going to the North Pole and then stating "Sh*t! the whole planet is a freaking ice cube". Some of it is, but most of it isnt.

Guess what oh enlightened one. I knew what I was getting into I went there and go there of my own free will. I observe I see what people are really capable of. You and those like you who avoid the dark side whether thru fear or lack of fortitude or the feeling that you are too good or better than that and thus more intelligent or special will never understand that.

It really doesn't matter mmarsh... Words and breath are wasted on men like them. Better just let them suck on their sores and not pay them any attention.

Oh I got something for you to...................never mind kid. You and your and your ilk can have your high minded notions and voice your little the world is wonderful opinions because of men like me, and Bulldog, and KJ, and DTop and tomtom and 5.56 etc, etc etc. Because those type of men have stood between you and nasties since 1775. Those type of men have guarenteed your rights under the Constitution, they have bled, died, and sacrificed to keep you from losing those rights. And all you can come up with is that kinda crap. Screw you you little light wieght college turd.

 

[Rob Henderson]

Who said anything about them? Did they post in this thread? I didn't think so.......

 

[USMC1990]

:read:Oh my lord, sometimes I wonder about the collective IQ of the world. We didnt invade iraq for oil. I admit it may have been part of it but that wasnt it. If you havent noticed the people voted. I know this is an outrageous suggestion but isnt that a good thing? Oh and has anyone fogot about the fact that there were and still are some insurgents their? We were trying to stop the taliban and alkida from gaining yet another safe haven. It wasnt all about the oil people. If it was why am i still paying $2.50 a gallon?

 

[Rob Henderson]

First of all, Sadaam Hussein was doing a better job than we are of keeping the insurgency OUT of Iraq...

Secondly, we can't control what the oil industry (read: monopoly) does with the prices of oil. All we (read: American gov't. at the time) knew was that we needed oil, and Iraq was the best bet, because drilling into wildlife refuges and offshore drilling is political suicide.

And I don't think anyone really believes that it was ONLY oil, but oil was DEFINITELY a reason... A big reason.

 

[KJ]

Your're accusing Henderson of living in a bubble, but that description applies to you as well in the exact opposite sense.

If you globe-trot to places where wars, crime, strife, and misery are prevelent that I am not surprised that you have such a bleak view of the world. The fact is you CHOSE to walk where you did. Did you really expect the military/police was going to send you to Fantasy Island when you joined up? The government doesnt send soldiers/police officers like you into places where things are pleasant, they send people like you into places where things are very bad. What you saw was the bad part of the world, but fortunately most of the world isnt like that. Have you ever lived (not visited, actually lived) in a country outside of military/police service where things are calm and peaceful?

Ill agree that there are some particularily nasty parts of the globe, but you really cannot make such a general desciption as the world as some pit. And I say this because like yourself, I too have done my own share of globe-trotting across many continents. I can safely say that most of it isn't too bad. There are places to avoid, but thats exactly what I do: I avoid them.

What your saying is like going to going to the North Pole and then stating "Sh*t! the whole planet is a freaking ice cube". Some of it is, but most of it isnt.

You are right in one sense.
We knew we were going to have to walk the shitholes of this planet when we signed up.
Some of us did it so that you wouldn´t have to walk around in your country being afraid.
Yeah I know...Kids and their romantic thoughts of making a difference.
At the same time I can´t help wonder were this world would have been without those kids ya know?
The kids that actually stepped forward when called upon.
The kids that picked up a weapon and stood a post, because they realized it was their responsibility to protect the ones that couldn´t protect themselves.

Now, I personally never thought.."Hey I am going to protect the ones that choose not to protect themselves".
I picked up that weapon because of the ones who can´t.

Do you think you anology of the north pole have any bearing on lets say New Yorkers working at the World Trade Center?
Or on Londoners who took a bus to work on the wrong day?
Or the tourists on Bali out to have a bite to eat, a drink and a dance..Perhaps even go on a date with that girl they met on the second day of their vacation.
Or the spansh people who took the train on that summerday back when someone decided they should die because of....Religion, skin color, politics or just the fact they were soft targets to hit?
You pick any survivor and tell them that analogy of yours..


Fast forward a few years.
Today I have seen some **** that I never thought could exist between people.
Today I have been spat at for wearing the uniform my country gave me to wear while protecting the people that for one reaon or another couldn´t protect themselves.
Today I listen to people saying my job isn´t honorable, that I do it because of oil or I do it to profit from other peoples missfortunes.
I listen to it with a smile on my face while my insides are burning with anger.

Why, you might ask?
Why don´t I just tell them?

There is no use in getting into that argument, because they would never get it.
They are the ones that did not step forward.
They are the ones that left that responsibility to someone else.

Yes, today I am a colder, some would even say a harder man.
I recognize that comes with the job while you do what some on this site do for a living.
I am ok with paying that prize.
Because I know I have made an impact on several lives during my career.
And hopefully, when the time comes to sum it up the positive will overpower the negative.

Today I have realized that, whatever sacrifice I make.
However much I give of my life and of myself there will still be people in this world that are ready to kill others over whatever reason.
I just hope that when the time comes for me to stand down there are other kids ready to step forward when called upon.
There are other kids that decide it is their responsibility to protect those who can not protect themselves.

After all, it´s just a job..................Right?

//KJ.

 

[A Can of Man]

Well put KJ. I don't think anyone could have put it better.
It's not only just military folks who know how bad the world can be but those who dare to go to places where things have obviously gone really bad.
There are bad guys everywhere and they're not always far away. They come in all kinds of shapes and sizes with different motivations and methods.

Doctors know what's truly dangerous and not in terms of disease and illness. The rest of us don't know a thing until something nasty hits the news.
A guy who works in the sewers has a better idea of how much junk we actually flush. The rest of us can only guess.
A cab driver actually gets to see psychos that live in the city at work (read up on some taxi driver stories... nuts...) while we usually think most people we meet are pretty normal (at least in the beginning).

And a lot of us folk here who have military/police experience know that there are some nasty people in the world who do seriously bad things.
Our eyes are open to that, but yours are not. On the other hand, I'm sure your eyes are open to things that many of ours are not.
If a doctor or experienced nurse's opinion on diseases is different from you, are they necessarily wrong?
If 5.56, 03, KJ etc. tell you how nasty the world can be, are they necessarily wrong?

It's all about what you see and what you don't see.

 

[The Other Guy]

I saw a country that rejoiced being rid of the US Army in its cities after a six year occupation.

I see a country that is putting too much emphasis or military service and not enough on education. A country where a service medal is valued more than a diploma. A country that supports using service to threaten its own citizens to step back in line while riding a moral high ground that they gave them the ability to step out of the line.

Yes, I have a bleak view of the world, and I'm not even talking about the word's dictatorships.

And since when did four incidents in usually peaceful nations dictate some to believe the entire world is evil?

 

[KJ]

I saw a country that rejoiced being rid of the US Army in its cities after a six year occupation.

I see a country that is putting too much emphasis or military service and not enough on education. A country where a service medal is valued more than a diploma. A country that supports using service to threaten its own citizens to step back in line while riding a moral high ground that they gave them the ability to step out of the line.

Yes, I have a bleak view of the world, and I'm not even talking about the word's dictatorships.

And since when did four incidents in usually peaceful nations dictate some to believe the entire world is evil?

Who wouldn´t be glad to see foreign soldiers being able to leave your own cities?
Let me state it clearly.
Occupation is not a perfect sulotion.
But sometimes the ONLY sulotion.

You just don´t get it..
You can´t have the right to a diploma without having the people that serve giving you that right.
That is why in some instances the medal of service/valor are rated higher then the diploma.
I can´t speak for your feelings.
But Service is not a threat, it is an honor.

Four instances?
Are you kidding me?

I brought up those four instances as examples, not as a record over everything that has happened.
Do you want me to go on?
If you take it just half a step further Pentagon officials probably didn´t know a plane were going to be flown into their building on 9/11..
The thwarted attack, the plane that were taken down by it´s passengers were probably not heading back to be landed on a tarmac?
The two hostiles that were shot in the London subway on that summersday were probably not there to sell cookies?
The plane that were taken down on a Swedish tarmac before the people onboard had a chance to lift off heading for London to crash it into civilian buildings..
The different hijackings that have been defeated by the very people you question the merits of.

What you see are very different from what I see.
But that is ok.
I do what I do so you don´t have to do it.
And so that, hopefully, you can continue to say.
"Four incidents are all there have been, this is a peaceful world"

But maybe you should sit down and think about it.. Atleast once, where your security comes from...


If you still don´t get it I don´t think I can explain it better or more clearly.

 

[A Can of Man]

I saw a country that rejoiced being rid of the US Army in its cities after a six year occupation.

You didn't see that. I don't claim to have seen anything over there, though I see if any of the things that I did see run some parallels with it, so neither should you.

As for emphasis on the military, the military has been at war since 2001, that is why there is a lot of emphasis on it. Once the fighting ends, the people come home and life returns to normal, less emphasis will be placed on military service, as was the case in the mid and late 90's. It'll be back to the "He's in the Army? He must be stupid," sort of thing. So don't you worry.

Remove the intellectuals etc etc. and the gunslingers will still be doing their thing, though missions will be different and organizations will be different (yeah it'll be a bit like Afghanistan in a way but for many of us, we really don't care about going to the mall much). Remove the gunslingers from their posts and the bankers, teachers, doctors etc. won't have a stable society in which to ply their trade.

The problem with education, basic services etc., is not the military or the emphasis on the military. It's political short sightedness that unfortunately comes with 4 year Presidential terms. Something that takes 12 years to see the results of just simply takes the back seat.

 

[mmarsh]

Guess what oh enlightened one. I knew what I was getting into I went there and go there of my own free will. I observe I see what people are really capable of. You and those like you who avoid the dark side whether thru fear or lack of fortitude or the feeling that you are too good or better than that and thus more intelligent or special will never understand that.

I originally wrote something much stronger to your rude post but thought better of it later. So I am going to speak to you calmly. I was only pointing out a certain double-standard in your post, I wasn't attacking you personally. So take a chill. I'm not trying to be a mod or tell you how to do your job, but your reply to me and to Henderson espicially the "Screw you you light-weight college turd". that was out of line. I am telling you that as an adult, man to man, POLITELY. It was against the rules, and it was out of line. Both of us know that if someone else here said that they would be facing a strong warning if not a outright ban. That's all I am going to say to you for now, because otherwise I might lose my restraint.

KJ

Yes bad things can happen anywhere. The incidents you mention (9-11...etc) But that really is the exception not the rule. Do you know what the odds are of such a thing happening to an individual? You are more likely to be struck by lightning. There is the flip side, good things can randomly happen too. The story of the women how donated a kidney to a total stranger, the philanthropist who decided to build a school in a poor neighborhood etc...
The problem is the media always focuses on all that's horrible, which is why we think the world is worse than it really is.

But these are "Wild Cards", Wars (which is what USMC03 was talking about) are universally bad. Nobody can expect to enter a conflict zone and expect to have cheerful memories.