queens_ranger
Banned
while the same could be said for the US regarding eventual lawsuits from Taiwanese victims of J-10
[edit: and so is this]
[edit: and so is this]
Why Japan is spending a lot of money on armament?
CABAL
Active member
This discussion about intellectual rights over Gunpowder is plainly ridiculous.
This is the first time I've heard something like this. The Chinese purchased an incomplete blueprint of the aircraft from the Israelis. Though the US funded the program and offered some technical assistance, the Lavi Design did not have any paperwork for licensing or leasing so therefore this aircraft was in complete control under Israel. Therefore Israel has all the right to sell the Lavi Program.
This is the first time I've heard something like this. The Chinese purchased an incomplete blueprint of the aircraft from the Israelis. Though the US funded the program and offered some technical assistance, the Lavi Design did not have any paperwork for licensing or leasing so therefore this aircraft was in complete control under Israel. Therefore Israel has all the right to sell the Lavi Program.
bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
PershingOfLSU said:
Pershing, you really need to take some Asian studies courses. I am not picking on you but I simply find it astounding you can say things that are in clear opposition to the facts. Have you lived in China or Japan or is your opinion second-hand spoon fed information? Japanese are NOT pacifists anymore than the Chinese are. The roots of militarism in Japan run long and deep. And there have been peaceful transfers of power in China since the revolution. When Mao died, there was no armed struggle for succession nor with Zhou Enlai nor Deng Xiaoping nor Jiang Zemin and neither with Hu Jintao. You're flying in the face of facts.
About being nuclear, the Pentagon itself has declared in reports to congress that China is the ONLY nuclear power that keeps its meager nuclear warhead arsenal with the rockets unfueled and the warheads NOT attached. And you claim THEY are beligerrant? You want to talk about being beliggerant? How about the over 300 military actions around the world since 1945 where the US was the aggressor? This is dangerous territory to tread into from the US mate.
PershingOfLSU
Active member
Alright, now that I know you're going thread to thread argueing with everything I say. The kiddy gloves are wearing thin.
How about I list the countries China has invaded in the last fifty years.
Tibet
Vietnam
India
Not to mention a division sized engagement with Russia after the Chinese decided to ambush a Soviet patrol. Which ended up almost leading to a nuclear war except for Soviet efforts to cool down tensions.
Now, let's list the countries Japan has invaded in the last fifty years:
Alright, now that we're done with that; polls show that most Japanese don't want to change article 9 of their constitution. While the Chinese certainly haven't show any inclination to go about things non violently.
And by the way, I lived in Japan for 4 years.
How about I list the countries China has invaded in the last fifty years.
Tibet
Vietnam
India
Not to mention a division sized engagement with Russia after the Chinese decided to ambush a Soviet patrol. Which ended up almost leading to a nuclear war except for Soviet efforts to cool down tensions.
Now, let's list the countries Japan has invaded in the last fifty years:
Alright, now that we're done with that; polls show that most Japanese don't want to change article 9 of their constitution. While the Chinese certainly haven't show any inclination to go about things non violently.
And by the way, I lived in Japan for 4 years.
CABAL
Active member
The Sino-Vietnam, Sino-Indian, Sino-Soviet Conflict were border clashes quite similar to what we seen during the Indian-Pakistani Conflict. However none of these countries deployed troop beyond foreign consolidated Boundaries and often fight in Diputed Areas so in this case China or its opponents did not invade any country of such sort.
Secondly, the Tibet Discussion is a seperate issue and have been discussed too many times, hence I will not go into that any further. Using Tibet as one of your supporting example does not apply to the situation between Japan and China.
As Bulldog have correctly stated, I recommend you to take several Asian Studies Courses if you wish to understand the situation more in depth.
Instigating for war with China is not a smart thing to do. Simple as that. And sadly the Right-Wing Faction of Japan is doing so during China's Military Buildup.
With China already hosting the 2008 Olympics and attempting to aim for a "Peaceful rise" in the international community, the new generation of China's Leadership is much more subtle and internationally open than it was 30 years ago. I fully recommend U.S. Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger's commentaries on China.
Lastly, China still remains a low profile country for military aggression as in comparison with other Militarily Industrialized Nations around the world during the Modern Age.
I'm not supporting any of these nations here, I'm providing a balanced view based on Facts.
PershingOfLSU
Active member
The Sino-Vietnam war was hardly a border clash. The Chinese invasion cost them some 60,000 casaulties and 20,000 dead with an equal number of Vietnamese military casaulties as well as 10,000 civilians.
The reasons for the Sino-Vietnam were not related to territorial borders. The war was China's way of punishing Vietnam for siding with the Soviet Union.
Now, if you choose to believe that China is a pacifistic giant incapable of hurting a fly, while Japan is still secretly plotting to conquer all of Asia. Then obviously nothing I say will be able to change your mind. And if you honestly believe that Japan should depend on the good will of China to keep it safe, nothing I say will be able to change your mind.
But, Japan itself knows that it cannot depend on the United States to protect it forever.
The reasons for the Sino-Vietnam were not related to territorial borders. The war was China's way of punishing Vietnam for siding with the Soviet Union.
Now, if you choose to believe that China is a pacifistic giant incapable of hurting a fly, while Japan is still secretly plotting to conquer all of Asia. Then obviously nothing I say will be able to change your mind. And if you honestly believe that Japan should depend on the good will of China to keep it safe, nothing I say will be able to change your mind.
But, Japan itself knows that it cannot depend on the United States to protect it forever.
CABAL
Active member
PershingOfLSU said:
Vietnam's decision to side with the Soviet Union does not appear to persuade much of Mao Zhedong to declare war. Mao Zhedong's decisions were based on his concerns over Vietnam's actions against Cambodia, which was China's strategic ally.
I'm sorry, but your assumption is incorrect. I believed none of your conjecture above.
Personally, I believe that Japan and China are both stubbornly uncooperative. Japan will need to follow the examples of post-war Germany and China will need to tone down its Anti-Japanese Sentiment in their own country. Otherwise this stupid nonsense will never seem to end. That is what I believe. You read?
PershingOfLSU
Active member
Yeah. But last I checked West Germany rearmed once the western allies were willing to at least consider the idea.
Vietnam invaded Cambodia because Cambodia was murdering ethnic Vietnamese within Cambodia as well as launching raids into Vietnam. And yes, I'm aware that one of China's stated reasons for invading Vietnam was persecution of Chinese in Vietnam.
Even to this day Vietnam maintains one of the world's largest armies for fear of what the Chinese might do. They certainly aren't expecting a Cambodian or American invasion. With all of the ominious anti-Japanese rumblings comeing out of China it is foolhardy for Japan to just hope that China won't do anything and that if they do America will come and save them. You read?
Vietnam invaded Cambodia because Cambodia was murdering ethnic Vietnamese within Cambodia as well as launching raids into Vietnam. And yes, I'm aware that one of China's stated reasons for invading Vietnam was persecution of Chinese in Vietnam.
Even to this day Vietnam maintains one of the world's largest armies for fear of what the Chinese might do. They certainly aren't expecting a Cambodian or American invasion. With all of the ominious anti-Japanese rumblings comeing out of China it is foolhardy for Japan to just hope that China won't do anything and that if they do America will come and save them. You read?
CABAL
Active member
Germany was allowed for re-armament on a limited defensive role. Japan on the other hand allowed itself to deploy troops off-shore independently (ex. Iraq) , something Germany cannot possibly do right now. Though, I'm beginning to question Japan's motives and its definition of Defense. Why send troops to Iraq if the Japanese military poses to be a defensive force? Was it necessary for the security of Japan itself? Absolutely not, instead it was a political action rather than a strategic one.
The presence of the US military in Japan is not for the defense of the island. Instead, they are there to continue to upheave the US Political/Military dominance in Asia or in other words to Expand US Military Capabilities in the region.
Speaking of America, the neo-conservatives and Sec. of Defense Donald Rumsfeld are lobbying for preparations for war with China, claiming it would be a primary national security threat in the future from now on. Again, this is another form of Instigation. From this point of view, most Politicians and Analysts can easily spot this. America will have to admit it some time later, but they are attempting to Contain China by all means. And as Kissinger have warned, it will negatively impact America instead.
PershingOfLSU
Active member
Japan's troops in Iraq are there entirely on a non-combat basis. Sending engineers to help rebuild a country is hardly what I'd call an act of wanton aggression.
However Germany deployed troops to Kosovo where they had a combat role and indeed saw fighting. And according to Globalsecurity.org Germany also has troops deployed in Kenya, Djibouti, Kuwait, and Poland. And how many thousand German troops are in Afghanistan? I believe those would count as political deployments as well.
As you apparently don't want United States troops in Asia, are you proposing that the United States withdraw entirely? Because that would simply idiotic. The purpose of having troops in that area is, believe it or not, to preven nations from getting into a shooting war. Without United States support Taiwan would be gone in short order.
No one wants to get into a shooting war with China. But sometimes the best way to prevent that is for the belligerent to know that any war would not end favorably for them. Dangling a defenseless and juicy treat infront of their nose is not how you create peace.
However Germany deployed troops to Kosovo where they had a combat role and indeed saw fighting. And according to Globalsecurity.org Germany also has troops deployed in Kenya, Djibouti, Kuwait, and Poland. And how many thousand German troops are in Afghanistan? I believe those would count as political deployments as well.
As you apparently don't want United States troops in Asia, are you proposing that the United States withdraw entirely? Because that would simply idiotic. The purpose of having troops in that area is, believe it or not, to preven nations from getting into a shooting war. Without United States support Taiwan would be gone in short order.
No one wants to get into a shooting war with China. But sometimes the best way to prevent that is for the belligerent to know that any war would not end favorably for them. Dangling a defenseless and juicy treat infront of their nose is not how you create peace.
CABAL
Active member
Yes, they are political deployments though not strategically important to Germany but they are there to support America's War against Terror.
During the last line, you said it quite reasonably yourself.
This idea supports the idea of the United State's of becoming a World Order. Good or bad, this is how America expands its Military presence. Whether you don't like the word usage of it or not, but this is what as known as Military Expansion.
From what I see, America's and Japan's potential enemy in Asia is not China. Instead it is North Korea, where the anti-Americanism is rampant all across the country. Plus the country has already have nuclear weapons, testfire missiles across Japan into Japanese Waters, abducted Japanese Citizens, a large North Korean spy agency operates in Japan, sent numerous Spy Ships to Japanese Waters, involved in fire fights in high sea standoffs with Japan, sent disturbing communiques to Washington and Tokyo to continue on with the childish duel of name calling.
China's newly elected Leadership knows that the outcome of war will not favor them. The United States is not the only tool that intimidates them from launching an attack against Taiwan. Instead, they are more concerned with their Domestic issues instead of International Affairs since many problems and prospects exists in their own country. And if a war over Taiwan was to happen, China will loose its role as a leading Economic Powerhouse in Asia.
PS: Japan is not what people called a "Juicy treat". There is some ackward analogy in that.
When Mao was alive, he supplied Vietnam with weapons and personels to fight americnas, that was called Kang Mei Yuan Yun (fight against Americans and help Vietnamese)
according to the book "Modernizating China's military", China sent as many as 300,000 soldiers to Vietnam, mostly anti-air and engineering troops, Chinese also made weapons for Vietnamese, like pistols, type-56 (ak-47 chinese version), other gears like radio (interesting thing is that during sino-Vietnam war, both side often recieve others' signals because they use the same made-in-china radios)
according to the book "Modernizating China's military", China sent as many as 300,000 soldiers to Vietnam, mostly anti-air and engineering troops, Chinese also made weapons for Vietnamese, like pistols, type-56 (ak-47 chinese version), other gears like radio (interesting thing is that during sino-Vietnam war, both side often recieve others' signals because they use the same made-in-china radios)
Damien435
Active member
CABAL said:
Yes and no.
China is the real rival to America, right now North Korea is little more than a nuisance. A country to weak to defeat a US invasion but powerful enough to cause the public to whine at the thought of war with North Korea. Their missiles can not reach America, American bases in South Korea and Japan yes, but not America. Their military personel are about the only people in North Korea who are not starving or freezing, fuel is in short supply, the only country truly threatened by North Korea is South Korea. From what I have seen North Korea would not be able to sustain a war with South Korea for more than three months. They might not run out of bullets but fuel they most definetly would. Supply lines would be impossible to maintain. The better armed, supplied, and if my memory serves me correctly numerically superior South Korean army might be pushed back and they could quite possibly lose Seoul but their supplies would out last those of the North.
China is still the greater threat. Their military is the largest in the world (in terms of number of troops) and they have an almost unlimited supply of reinforcements. As some members of this forum has pointed out the PLA will do whatever it takes to win (or at least kill as many of the enemy before being defeated) an invasion of China by anything short of a combined NATO-Russian force is almost sure to fail, maintaining order of China would be almost impossible. While the offensive capability of China may be almost non-existant if not by an overland route their defenses would be very formidable. China is still the greater threat in terms of ability to harm the US, Japan, or really any other nation.
North Korea however is a loose cannon. They are the metaphorical straw that could break the camel's back. They might not be able to fight a war but they could very well start one. So in one aspect, yes, Cabal is right in that North Korea is the greater threat for causing war, but in terms of fighting a war China is definetly the greater threat.