Why can't Taiwanese people accept their Chinese heritage?
MadeInChina
Active member
lemme correct ur errors:
taiwan was reclaimed from imperalistic dutches before the downfall of the ming dynasty
manchu cant take on ming honestly, its just too powerful
how they ruled china then was a good oppertunity, in which there were rebellions all over china
these rebelions soon became more heated and under a single control of a militarist rebel leader
they took over southwestern china, north western china, eastern china
the ming dynasty was soon locked in an area centered in beijing
the rebels besieged beijing and took it over
at this time a general controlling the most powerful ming army at *shan hai guan ( the easternmost of the great wall) negociated with qing leader and proposed to kill the rebels ina joint arm operation
the rebels were slaughtered just outside the great wall, and soon manchu bannermen took over ming land, which included xinjiang and xizang ( from now on i will not call that place tibet anymore, for obvious reasons)
the ming emperor hanged himself before the rebels came btw
the ming emperor's relatives escaped to taiwan
third emperor of qing took back taiwan when it was obvious that ming rebel forces were bothering mainland populations in coastal provinces
it was easy and taken over
Corocotta
Active member
Godofthunder910 wrote
You history is very beautiful, but full of mistakes:
1544 : Mr. Portugal "discovered" Taiwan, and called it Ilha Formosa, the beautiful island.
1582: Mr. Spain ship was wrecked on the island of Formosa. This was the earliest mention of the Island in the accounts of European navigation although it had been in the charts previous to 1579 according to James Burney.
1624: Mr. Dutch erected Fort Zeelandia on an islet, named Tayouan or Taywan, close to today's Tainan
You history is very beautiful, but full of mistakes:
1544 : Mr. Portugal "discovered" Taiwan, and called it Ilha Formosa, the beautiful island.
1582: Mr. Spain ship was wrecked on the island of Formosa. This was the earliest mention of the Island in the accounts of European navigation although it had been in the charts previous to 1579 according to James Burney.
1624: Mr. Dutch erected Fort Zeelandia on an islet, named Tayouan or Taywan, close to today's Tainan
godofthunder9010
Active member
Reclaimed? How was it reclaimed? Taiwan was no more a part of China under the Ming Dynasty (before the Dutch came) than Korea and Japan were a part of China under the Ming. http://www.artsmia.org/arts-of-asia/china/maps/ming-map.cfmUrbanboy said:
http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Dynasty/dynasty-Ming.html
http://www-chaos.umd.edu/history/imperial3.html
So if it was not a part of China at any other time under Ming rule, how can the Ming "reclaim" something that was never really theirs to begin with?
The half-hearted, but perhaps well meaning several attempts to make Taiwan a vassal kingdom of sorts (the greatest of which probably occurred under the Han Dynasty) are represented by the two illegitimate children that Ms Taiwan has from romances with a certain resident of China Village.
The Manchus, an ethnic Tatar group, most definitely did take on the Ming. The Ming, earlier in its existance, was one of the most powerful nations the world has ever seen. But even the greatest can fall, and the Ming certainly did. They fell th the invading Machus invaders. To deny this would be to say the last imperial dynasty of China, the Qing (1644-1911), never actually happened.
In depth treatment of that happened I did leave incomplete. But good enough. The analogy is very long already and adding details would just make it longer. I plead guilty to oversimplifying the process of the Ming Dynasty collapsing from within prior to being conquered from without.
Saying that Mr. Ming escaped is to say that an heir did survive so the Dynasty of the Ming was not necessarily completely over, hence our landlord we are using to represent him was not killed. He escapes.
In the end, it is an alalogy, and it is incomplete by its very nature. The point is, Ms. Taiwan never asked to become anyone's slave, never asked to be raped and never invited anyone else to come run her island for her.
staurofilakes, you are right that it would probably be more accurate to include a third person to the matter. Mr Portugal, Mr Spain and Mr Dutch. Just to represent all the mysterious arrivals that happened leading up to Dutch rule of the island.
MadeInChina
Active member
are you trying to emphasize that ethenic tatar groups are superior than the average han group??
as a western i understand how you dont understand history
the ming army was very powerful, they had built forts and wall fortifications everywhere among the great wal lof china
moreso was an extra wall bult in southern manchuria, which is basically a line drawn so the manchu cannot invade
before a horrible mistake by the chinese emperor, the ming army fought off much of the sieges by manchu forces, because the most powerful elite units are posted there with new cannons and weapons
one historic battle marked the change in manchu army, in which they were defeated badly in the battle of jinzhou, which is an important fort city blocking the passage to the great wall
the battle after that one also changed the type of strategy used in the manchu army, in which an attack through mongolia was defeated when the han general took heavy troops from the manchurian frontier and put them in monogolia, a heavily gambled move
this battle made the manchu realize that frontal attacks are simple deadly aginist the walls and advanced weaponery of the han
the next battle unfolds into a almost manchu victory, in which from the use of intelligence, a han traitor told rumors of the general commanding the manchurian defensive region of having no trust and being a traitor
thus he was dismissed and replaced with a incopetent general
the manchu mnaged to take several cities of the southern liaoning province
this was teh footstep for them
soon after, the peasants rebelled, and good generals were purged by the gullible emperor who really wanted to rule the country well and peaceful
however this was too late as the peasaants defeated ming garrisions of corrupted and badly trained militias
the manchu this time had heavily casulties, so high that a draft came to order for the first time, however, this paid off as walls and forts outside the great walls were allc onquerored, also they annexed several tribes and land of mongolia
the great wall wasnt breeched, but from a traitor general
godofthunder9010
Active member
Urbanboy, in all honesty you might be fishing for bigotry/racism against the Chinese people where there is none. I am not trying to emphasize the Manchus as being anything other than what they were: A semi-barbaric band of thugs that came to conquer. Opportunists that jumped at the chance when the Ming started self-destructing. Sure they'd been trying for years, but that is nothing new to China. The threat was ALWAYS in the north.Urbanboy said:
The Manchus were ultimately absorbed by the China anyways, just like so many before them. The Manchus had already mostly adopted Chinese culture as their own well before they even began their systematic conquest of China. They went to greater lengths than anyone before them to preserve their distinct identity. In the process, they replaced the primary spoken language with a much changed version of their native language. The world knows it as Mandarin Chinese. All the rest: their laws and prohibitions against mixing ethnic Manchu with ethnic Han Chinese and other such things only delayed the inevitable. Such laws only became more and more pointless as time passed. Mission failed, they became Chinese anyways. And its the same China. The delusions of superiority of Mandarin/Manchu roots still exists today but its foolishness is more evident all the time. But nobody needs to delude themselves into believing that they were alwasy Chinese. The most definitely weren't. Not anymore than Ghengis Khan was Han Chinese.
Their belief in their own racial superiority is silly, of course. The harsh environment of Siberia, Mongolia and Manchuia to a lesser degree. We're looking at a bitter northern climate and land that makes hard men. Take any group of human beings and force them to survive in the same region and you get the same effect: A group of people that are harder than steel.
There are things about Chinese culture that I will never fully comprehend but that will not stop me from trying anyway. I do not know Chinese history as well as most Chinese, most likely. I can imagine that is certainly the case, but you should consider that in the USA, very little of Chinese history is ever bothered with. The majority of Americans have no concept of what "Han Chinese" might be, for instance. Hardly any of them have any understanding of what the whole Taiwan business is all about. Many Americans are entirely unaware that the island is "officially" a part of China. When the controversy heats up (as it always seems to do), if they manage to even notice at all, they are often surprised that what they always think of as an independent country (Taiwan) is the mysterious source of Chinese anger. That's if they even bother thinking about it at all. "Some fight in some remote corner of the world, why do I care?" Most would be very hard pressed to find Taiwan on a map. Let's be honest, the controversy over Taiwan is confusing as hell. I think we're improving somewhat on American ignorance, but it is quite silly that so many Americans give so little thought to the outside world.
For my part, I find it frustrating that the only things about China that ever seem to get discussed are such things as Taiwan, Tibet, Tianamen Square, and the border wars with Vietnam, India and the Soviet Union. Controversies. But just watch: If a topic is started on something like the grand fleet of the Ming Dynasty, hardly anyone will bother with it. Much of the forum knows far too little about it.
The sufferings of China in World War II seems to seems to be a worthwhile subject on the surface. And yet, it leads to nothing good ... just a hostile rehashing of Japan's attrocities against China. Japan seems determined to focus all attention on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and how terrible the United States was to drop the Atom Bomb on them. They did far worse to China, Korea, the Phillipines and all of the long list of victimized countries. Their greatest determination as a nation is to deny that any of it ever happened. Japan's determination in this regard leads right into flame wars as well. And that too becomes a pointless discussion. You're never going to wake someone up until they are willing to let you wake them.
You could have a wonderful discussion about the oldest semi-continuous nation on the planet. The glorious past of China is hardly bothered with on this forum. The long history of what could be compared to a completely unified Europe lasting well over 2000 years (fading an reemerging as one Dynasty dies and another rises from the chaos to eventually takes its place.) We Westerners are quite familiar with Egypt following the same pattern, but China is the pattern of Egypt on so much bigger of a scale that it absolutely blows your mind. On top of all that, the Egypt of that pattern died out a long long time ago. China is still going strong with no hint of ever stopping. The oldest nation in the world, if I am not mistaken. Westerners haven't a clue for the most part.
But all everyone ever wants to talk about is Taiwan, Taiwan, Taiwan. Why?
MadeInChina
Active member
good explanation thunder, and good analysis on the reason why we flame and dissagree
taiwan is the interest of topics because currently it is the so-called frontier of civilization for ignorant americans and westerns, what they think of the avearge chinese is horrendous and i for one wanted to change that
to many americans, maybe not thunder, their views are imperalistic and based on the fact that west of america is commies/evil while to the east of america is allies facing the frontier of good
thereby many people take taiwan too seriously and began to be view it as american territory that must be defended
such thinking is just terrible
taiwan is the interest of topics because currently it is the so-called frontier of civilization for ignorant americans and westerns, what they think of the avearge chinese is horrendous and i for one wanted to change that
to many americans, maybe not thunder, their views are imperalistic and based on the fact that west of america is commies/evil while to the east of america is allies facing the frontier of good
thereby many people take taiwan too seriously and began to be view it as american territory that must be defended
such thinking is just terrible
godofthunder9010
Active member
I don't think it is viewed as that exactly. The viewpoint has never been that Taiwan is American territory. To say so is a severe misjudgement of the viewpoint of American People and its government. You might as well say that we consider all of Western Europe to be officially owned and opperated by the USA. Nonsense!Urbanboy said:
It is more along the lines of what the USA did when the tiny nation of Kuwait was overrun by the much bigger and more powerful nation of Iraq in 1991. The USA went in and threw the Iraqis out of Kuwait post-haste. From the American perspective its this is another really big strong nation that is directing threats at (as far as they've ever heard of) the independent country called Taiwan.
How much sense does it make to tell such a person that Taiwan is a part of China starting from that perspective? The "One land two systems" policy is most likely to get the following reaction: "Okay, Mr China guy, you've just thoroughly confused the hell outa me. You say there is one government that rules one chunk of land and another government that rules another chunk of land. Sure sounds like two different coutnries to me!" There isn't really another nation on earth today (that I can think of) that could be use as an example to illustrate the concept either. So what do you get? Blank stares at best, in all truth.
It would be if Americans actually thought that. They don't.
Additionally, it is quite interesting that anyone and everyone in Southeast Asia that maintains anthing resembling a miltary alliance with the United States is depicted as "yet another example of American imperialism." In cases like Japan, the nation is mostly just terrified that China might start a fight they cannot hope to win alone. This is a Chinese stereotyping that drives me absolutely nuts. Example: Just because Brandon and me are friends and look out for each other doesn't mean I own him and it doesn't mean I own him either. It means we're friends and nothing more.
If the goal is educate people about things that they incorrectly understand, the above paragraph really really needs to be understood by the people of China.
CABAL
Active member
Political relations cannot be compared to personal friendships Godofthunder03. It cannot be correlated to simple logic such as that. Foreign Policy is a very very complex science and perhaps takes decades for this situation to be resolved through a more logical approach. So don't simplify to a vague conclusion without understanding the dangerous gamble of International Politics.
MadeInChina
Active member
however ur example is missing out something lemme add it
we east asians view america as a very distant country, it shouldnt meddle in asian politics, and its various military prisons and bases in asian territory clearly given the image that this is truly imperalism
japan could be said as the running dog who kisses america's ass, while deeply in herself she felt anger and the will to fight anotherday
south korean could be described as teh running dog that kept on bitting its collars to break free of it, and between japan and south korea they are biting each other, south korean dog however, misses its old pal north korea when the twins split apart from an angery political argument
Taiwan is yet another running dog of us, however it remains some ties to her old home, china, and constantly misses home, however in the hands of american she learned some stuff and felt the old house was worse than the new owner
this was from a chinese university professor on politics who described the above to students, pretty funny it seems, and it was posted on line
we east asians view america as a very distant country, it shouldnt meddle in asian politics, and its various military prisons and bases in asian territory clearly given the image that this is truly imperalism
japan could be said as the running dog who kisses america's ass, while deeply in herself she felt anger and the will to fight anotherday
south korean could be described as teh running dog that kept on bitting its collars to break free of it, and between japan and south korea they are biting each other, south korean dog however, misses its old pal north korea when the twins split apart from an angery political argument
Taiwan is yet another running dog of us, however it remains some ties to her old home, china, and constantly misses home, however in the hands of american she learned some stuff and felt the old house was worse than the new owner
this was from a chinese university professor on politics who described the above to students, pretty funny it seems, and it was posted on line
MadeInChina
Active member
lol, its just a funny way of describing modern politics, quite clever i thought
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Let's settle it at this: None of us care if we got Chinese heritage or not. We're not a part of China and we thank El Jesus for it every day.
godofthunder9010
Active member
Perhaps, perhaps not. In my experience is FAR more prevelant amongst Chinese people. I'm talking about the idea that "America has no business having any presence whatsoever in SE Asia." not "We don't appreciate the Americans doing _______."Urbanboy said:
Japan doesn't seem to be a willing pet or slave, or whatever ananogy is acceptable to His Magesty Cabal, lord of acceptable analogies (just picking on you Cabal). Otherwise they'd actually honor US demands to apologize to warcrimes committed against us and everybody else, for one thing. They've tried to flood the US market with cheap cars and other merchandise in order to run their competition in the USA out of business. The USA most certainly has tried to change Japan the Lion into Japan the Lamb, with some degree of success perhaps. As a result, we have to help them maintain the defense of their own country. Is that what we're talking about though?
Bear in mind that Japan most certainly isn't going to trade friendship with the USA for friendship with China. China doesn't want friendship, they want revenge for the terrible things that Japan did in WW2. They also make demands for Japan to give them their islands and territories back to them "or else!" Lousy way to encourage them to trade the USA for China I'd say, even if there are some good reasons for Chinese anger.
South Korea's dilema is very similar, but not as pronounced. They have to keep ties to the United States largely because North Korea and China may try to attack them again at some point. I sincerely hope that China stays out of it, but they have their promises to NK contrary to that.
You greatly overstating the role of the United States in it all. The KMT did their own thing and the system that exists now, the KMT's descendant, continues to do its own thing. Taiwanese Independence certainly isn't something that the USA has pushed for that I can recall.
Well, it sounds like he is either being a propagandist for the PRC or he just very strong believes in all that nonsense. There may be some valid points certainly but consider: It seems that China is the only one calling every nations around it "America's Obedient Dogs" or whatever other insult for it. The USA doesn't need to act like it owns SE Asia. Neither does China.
MadeInChina
Active member
dude, dont be racist, ur breaking these human rights code
no disgriminating aginist country of origin
no disgrminating aginist race
no disgriminating aginist ethenic backgrounds
just a warning this time redneck 13, if u get out of control with ur verbal abuses, then u deserve some time to think about it
personally it is very insulting, just like what one forumer said : a good chinese is a dead chinese"
i mean cmon, wtf is wrong, i keep my convs clean of racism but you cant seem to handle it
thank u for ur time
well, personally every chiense thinks that way, we think of japan and south korea as running dogs, hope i didnt offend anyone here
this american imperalism sorta felt like when the british empire came to asia and colonzied, hatred is growing out of it because of what they have done
godofthunder9010
Active member
Except for the fact that China apparently is dreaming a huge share if it up. The United States has no true control over anybody. Japan is welcome to tell us to get lost and go away. So is South Korea. The mistake is equating "Influence" with "Control". Those are not the same thing. And please consider that calling the Taiwanese, Japanese, Koreans or whoever else, "Obedient dogs to American Imperialism" is just as racist as what 13th_Redneck said if not more, and it is a direct insult to peoples coutries. Fine if that is what China teaches its people to believe, but if they are teaching such things then they are teaching hate and racism, whether intentionally or not.
CABAL
Active member
godofthunder9010 said:
You cannot judge one man's insights as a national level. I'm definetily positive that there are many Chinese Citizens who do not share Urbanboy's views.
Actually, the notion of "Obedient dogs to American Imperialism" is a common statement umong Middle Eastern Militant factions. According to current events, thousands of demonstrators protest in front of the US Consulate/Embassy building in Beirut expressing outrage of US involvement in the crisis.
Well....perhaps it may be time for you to know that the United States is DEEPLY involved in Foreign Affairs in the last few years since 9/11.
MadeInChina
Active member
dude, first of all i described the government of taiwan, korea and japan as running dogs, not racial tobedient dogs to american imperalism
i never mentioned any race or nationality of anybody on my comments, only governments
true, america always comes up with these probably threats, which is really annoying
thunder, i may have offended ur comments but i get some pretty hotheaded views from 90% of the americans i have talked to on some 5 forums
one example is: get out of our backyard china
another is ; dont go near taiwan, dont molest our women
i get a pretty good idea of how americans view asia from those comments, which is degrading and retarded
godofthunder9010
Active member
Okay, but the terminology being used is still insulting to other peoples countries and I thought both of you ought to be aware of that. Try say it more diplomatically perhaps. Just calling another country any sort of "dog" implies that you are belittling said country.
If people from the Middle East use such terms, they get banned pretty fast on this forum.
And it is a lousy thing to believe about another person's country and people in my humble opinion.
If people from the Middle East use such terms, they get banned pretty fast on this forum.
And it is a lousy thing to believe about another person's country and people in my humble opinion.