A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Perhaps, but it would be misleading to mention one and not the other.
Where is the wikileak-thread?
HokieMSG
Active member
In America we have the benefit of congressional oversight. I do not believe that the general public needs to know EVERYTHING that the government is doing. We have to trust the system. If we cannot, then it should be changed. I realize how this sounds but it is a VERY FINE LINE that we tread and determining what should be released is NEVER easy.
seno, I have NEVER doubted that Assange is anti American. All he has released is American documents, but please don't tell me that he has not recieved anything from people from other countires. I question why? I return to what I said before. Assange should realize that in taking on the US government he has made himself a target.
senojekips
Active member
Whaaa??... He has,... and if you had made the slightest attempt to read and understand what is going on, you would have known that. Maybe it's not reported in the US, but there are plenty of Australian politicians and military leaders pulling their hair out if you are to believe the press, and I have no doubt the same is the case in the UK and other places. I'm absolutely sure that he merely released what he has been given, and made no attempt to focus on any one country.
I'd say it was done because, It was time that proof was shown to support what most of the world was already aware of, we are being lied to on a grand scale, and it is costing trillions of dollars, not to mention thousands of lives of both our Servicemen and the nationals in the countries concerned. I think that might be a good start as to why this type of thing is needed every now and then. In Australia, we call it "Keeping the bastards honest".
Like the hundreds of totally innocent persons who were incarcerated and tortured in Gitmo and otherplaces I suppose, sold out by their own countrymen (and others) for cash incentives put up by your Government, and more to the point, even when this was discovered, virtually none of them were released.
The USA has a bloody long way to go before they can start preaching morality to the likes of Assange.
Once again, you neglect to say anything about the person(s) who actually stole the information. Patriotism is admirable (in certain circumstances), but self centred jingoism is not.
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
So then you trust your government completely?
Considering the profession is rated barely higher than ambulance chaser I would suggest that few if any trust politicians.
The fact is whether we (individually) like it or not these people act in our name and using our financing, we put them in the position to do this therefore we have every right to know what they are up to and lets be honest here had the documents leaked been in line with what we were told by these people there would be no issues.
I have to agree with Seno here, while the majority of the documents are American I have read Australian, New Zealand and a host of other nations ones as well.
Chukpike
Banned
In general I do trust the government to do what is in my countries best interest. That does not mean I trust all politicians, after all I did not vote for all those elected.
Diplomacy means working with others who may not have the exact same goals.
In general it has worked well, as since the United States has become a Super Power there have been no World Wars. When the United Kingdom was in that position there were two World Wars.;-)
Could you supply some examples?
As the Wikileaks website lists no Australian or New Zealand documents leaked. The site also does not list any United States leaked documents mentioning either Australia or New Zealand. Could mean the Australian an New Zealand governments are so truthful that Wikileaks could find nothing newsworthy to reveal.
Don't know if you can access this Wikileaks website. If you can, it gives instructions for searching for documents plus being able to download the released archived documents.
Wikileaks website:
http://wikileaks.ch/
"All released leaks archived
2010-11-28
Due to recent attacks on our infrastructure, we've decided to make sure everyone can reach our content. As part of this process we're releasing archived copy of all files we ever released - that's almost 20,000 files. The archive linked here contains a torrent generated for each file and each directory."
Because of the 1St Amendment the US government has little recourse towards Wikileaks. While US government officials may wish it would go away, Wikileaks is protected. Like any representative of the press if they were found to have received the material by a illegal means they could be prosecuted. But, Wikileaks is an organization not just Julian Assange.
Julian Assange's legal difficulties have little to do with the US.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Could you supply some examples?
As the Wikileaks website lists no Australian or New Zealand documents leaked. The site also does not list any United States leaked documents mentioning either Australia or New Zealand. Could mean the Australian an New Zealand governments are so truthful that Wikileaks could find nothing newsworthy to reveal.
On the contrary by all accounts there are 1490 cables relating to New Zealand and I have no idea how many Australian ones exist, the ones I have read have been somewhat innocuous and hardly earth shattering stuff such as politicians resigning, the resumption of intelligence ties with the USA etc. etc.
http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/secrets-kept-public-interest-says-key-3967433
And for the record John Key can go F... himself as well, our politicians are as dodgy an anyone else's and he is the leader of them all, the prick would sell us in a heart beat for an extra 15 mins of fame.
Oh and here is a site with some of the New Zealand documents (nothing remotely interesting though)...
http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2010/12/12/another-break-new-zealand-wikileaks-edition/
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HokieMSG
Active member
I find it interesting that he is having legal troubles with Sweden, not the USA. I stand by my statement that he is Anti American and will do anything he thinks will undermine the USA.
If we are being lied to then the media is certainly aiding and abetting. I think that it is good that we have taken the fight to the insurgents. We are combating them on their turf and the turf of their supporters. Better there than here.
They were never released because their countries wouldn't take them back. Admit it, these guys were living better in US prison than they would at home. If you have a source proving that the insurgents were tortured please provide it. The US Army currently uses the Human Intelligence Collector Operations FM 2-22.3. This was last updated in 2006 and President Obama has ordered a review. Still pending.
Never brought morality into it. You did.
OK I'll adress that now. It seems that Manning was not only a deeply troubled individual, but he was also desperate for attention. This is his way to get his 15 minutes. At the conclusion of his military trial, if he is found guilty, he should be sentenced to the maximum punishment. If it was discovered that the information he released led to the death or deaths of people who were helping us, then he should be tried for accessory to murder.
You say I am a self centered jingoist. Name calling should be left on the playground. I admit to being patriotic, nothing more.
And it is exactly for this reason that Wikileaks will continu leaking. They have to same fervent believe in anti-patriotism, as you have in patriotism. The harder people like Assange are punished, the more people will see this as censorship. And the more information they will receive to publish.
Some of the greater minds said the following:
HokieMSG
Active member
If everything is so bad here in America, why do a lot of people emigrate here? Why do we have such a problem with illeagal immigration? I believe that the standards of living are better here than in their home countries. America is still the land of opportunity. America is by no means perfect but we still represent a lot of ideals that people want to emulate.
It is true I was born here, but America has provided me with many opportunities, as long as I am willing to work hard.
The extremists attacked our way of life because they resent us. When we defend our interests we are called empire builders, racists and a bunch of other things. Just tired of the double standards.
While it is important for democracy to have transparency, our enemies will continue to use that against us. Wikileaks, in theory, is a watchdog group. Assange seems to be set on releasing information just because he can, without regard for the consequences. Responsible people would have considered the consequences of their actions. Assange does not care and blasts everything out to everyone and let the chips fall where they may.
It is true I was born here, but America has provided me with many opportunities, as long as I am willing to work hard.
The extremists attacked our way of life because they resent us. When we defend our interests we are called empire builders, racists and a bunch of other things. Just tired of the double standards.
While it is important for democracy to have transparency, our enemies will continue to use that against us. Wikileaks, in theory, is a watchdog group. Assange seems to be set on releasing information just because he can, without regard for the consequences. Responsible people would have considered the consequences of their actions. Assange does not care and blasts everything out to everyone and let the chips fall where they may.
Long time sat on fence, until bloke got "dirty arrest"
watched WikiRebels- documentary... kinda recovered by now..
Wish him well!
anw- made me grin endless!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/interpol-the-worlds-datin_b_793033.html
Julian Assange Captured by World's Dating Police
watched WikiRebels- documentary... kinda recovered by now..
Wish him well!
anw- made me grin endless!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/interpol-the-worlds-datin_b_793033.html
Julian Assange Captured by World's Dating Police
Same could be said about South Africa. People from all over Africa fled to South Africa prefering Apartied to thier own cesspool dictatorship.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Umm before you get carried away most "developed" countries have a problem with "illegal" immigration be it Hispanics, East Europeans, Asians or Pacific Islanders and they will go anywhere not just to the USA.
Again same thing applies to all "developed" countries, in fact I would suggest that they have become developed for exactly that reason, they worked hard.
You know it is precisely the attitude that "every one wants to be us, and they all resent us" that gets you attacked, if you recall much of the world waved goodbye about the time good ole George W came up with the "if you are not with us you are against us" statement.
If you travel the world you will discover that for the most part no body mentions the USA just like while I was in the USA; New Zealand wasn't on the tip of peoples tongues and I think I know why... People the world over have far better things to occupy themselves with than you or me, they have their own daily problems to deal with.
In short "get over yourselves" the rest of the world certainly has.
Umm what is your point, releasing information is what these groups do.
HokieMSG
Active member
Yes releasing information is what these groups do. However, I fell that Assange wants to consider himself a journalist (Conveniently hiding behind our 1st Ammendment) but what he has done is dangerous as well as irresponsible. I fear that in his rush to bash the US government he failed to adequately consider the consequences of his actions. He has placed the lives of US and coalition soldiers at risk, he has placed the lives of the Iraqi and Afghani people who are helping us at risk as well. Responsible journalists would have vetted the information and at least redacted names, tribes, towns that type of thing in order to prevent reprisals against them.
senojekips
Active member
But of course, just as anyone who criticises Israel, regardless of the fact that they are correct is an "Anti Semite", like many of the persons Assange is uncovering , you seem determined to divert the blame from your own country or citizens. Assange is the owner of a website publishing leaked documents, no different to any other form of media be it newspaper, or TV or whatever, and you still seem to neglect the fact that most, if not all of the information was stolen by a US citizen.
Once again you won't look at the root cause but attribute the blame to others. The Media were reporting what they are told, the actual lies are being diseminated by the Government and their agencies.
Their countries were not ever consulted when they were removed, how come they are consulted about their return? In fact, in most cases their respective countries were not even aware that they had ever been removed from that country.
As for torture I would go so far as to say that you are lying (very poorly). How can you even pose such a question after all of the fuss and admissions of waterboarding, in the media, not to mention such gems as the totally innocent Cab driver who was beaten to death by US military personel whilst just being "softened up" prior to an "intrerogation session". Read http://www.truth-out.org/article/the-court-martial-willie-brand
| CIA Torture in Iraq | |
The whole argument is based on morality, and you well know it, that is the whole point of Wikileaks
That does not hold water. If, as you allege, Manning was such a deeply troubled individual, why was he left in such a sensitive job? I would say that this is no more than another typical attempted cover up to discredit him.
Take a look at some of the rubbish you have presented here. e.g. "US not torturing insurgents" I don't have to demonstrate that you are a jingoist, you are doing a far better job than I ever could, it's not "name calling", merely an honest statement of fact.
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I disagree to date there is no evidence that any information released has lead to reprisal actions, the only reason this issue has been blown out of all proportion is that a few governments have been shown to be lying on a grand scale and rather than resolving to clean themselves up they have chosen to shoot the reporter while almost ignoring how he got the information.
When this thing first blew up my arguments were very much the same as yours but the longer it has gone on and the more I have looked into it for myself the more I am beginning to think that I agree with him.
I also find the "rape" allegations a little odd given that they were dismissed back in August...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/21/julian-assange-rape-case-_n_690009.html
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Lots of countries have that problem, and it is not the issue here. It is the arrogant foreign policy that left the US without many friends. In many places, here in Europe and all over, people haven't forgotten the: you are with us or against us.
Assange merely put the finger on the sore spot, that is all.
Chukpike
Banned
Europe and other countries shift as the wind blows. You suggest that the US is with out friends because of: "you are with us or against us". That is fine, it is also many years in the past. Since then, as I recall Europeans were tripping all over themselves when President Obama was elected, even gave him the Nobel Peace Prize.
So what is the current flavor of the month?
The US can probably do with out the "what have you done for us lately" crowd. Fair weather friends are a dime a dozen.
I sincerely doubt that the US has anything to do with Julian Assange's problems. That is probably some unhappy European governments. Let's face it Assange may not be a choirboy, but Wikileaks will continue to operate, with or with out him.
When everyone gets finished with whining about the mean, nasty US oops... that was Last President, now it is Nobel Peace loving not so good with secrets US.:lol:
Getting back to the topic, why aren't we talking about the leaks more? Per Ted, "Frankly, I am quite surprised that the whole wikileak-affair is about as lively as Grace Jones on this forum."
I think the reason is they are turning out to be pretty boring. Mostly just straight analyzes with only some colorful metaphors. Most of the stuff bears out the fact that most governments are saying the same thing behind closed doors, but more diplomatically in public. In other words we have not gotten any really juicy dirt or gossip yet. That translates to boring.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
You mean finished whining in the way you guys are about Wikileaks, Assange and "the world is against/hates/is jealous of us" BS we have to hear every time you lot don't get what you like?
He is a thought, if this was Iran, Russia or any other country you would be spouting on about how this would never happen in the USA because of all your perceived freedoms and how corrupt these "commie/Islamofacist" countries are but the second it happens to you its the greatest crime on earth.
Oh and WTF... "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire(1694 - 1778)... This is your signature, I think you need to look up irony...
Lets up date it, "I disapprove of what you say, but as long as it makes someone else look bad and not me I will defend to the death your right to say it." Chukpike(2010)
He is a thought, if this was Iran, Russia or any other country you would be spouting on about how this would never happen in the USA because of all your perceived freedoms and how corrupt these "commie/Islamofacist" countries are but the second it happens to you its the greatest crime on earth.
Oh and WTF... "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire(1694 - 1778)... This is your signature, I think you need to look up irony...
Lets up date it, "I disapprove of what you say, but as long as it makes someone else look bad and not me I will defend to the death your right to say it." Chukpike(2010)
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Even China has an illegal immigration problem.