When will it stop … can it stop??

Damien
You mentioned the interest on our National Debt in a 'passing' manner ... but ... I believe it has a bigger impact on our national budget than most people can really grasp. The payment of interest is taking a bigger and bigger bite out of our yearly budget every single year and is now approaching the point where this interest repayment has eclipsed the total budget of some large third world country's total yearly budgets.

You mentioned both the Republican and the Democratic parties and hinted that the Republican had 'balls' and the Democrats were 'better' at managing the budget but weren't good at addressing the economy.

I would like to point out to you that the Democrats had a very large surplus of money and were in the process of reducing the National Debt when Bush was 'elected' to office the first time ... now the budget is so far into the red that the National Debt has spiralled to in excess of 8.6 trillion dollars ... so who was the best overall at minding the 'store' ... Republicans (or) Democrats?

The answer is obvious to me ... but ...
 
Damien435 said:
My philosophy.

Republican president because I like their approach to foreign policy more. (ie. they have balls)

Democratic control congress because they are better and managing money. Not necessarily the economy, but the budget, deficit spending should not be allowed under any circumstances, especially not in a planned manner. I can see spending a few billion more than anticipated on say Katrina but planning to spend $526 billion more than you have is asking for trouble. I support Bush's foreign policy (you know, invading Afganhistan and Iraq, even if I don't agree with how he did it.) but the whole JSF fiasco and this money mis-management is driving me more and more into the anti-Bush collumn, again. Paying off the debt should be bumped up quite a few spots in our list of priorities, I think at this time it should be above education in all honest, with the F-22A and JSF we have spent enough money on our R & D that we can rest for say 10 years and not fall bahind our enemies and allies alike. It's just common sense to me, so much of our budget is going to paying the interest on our debt that in only a short time it would start paying off to have repaid our debt.

Also, outsourcing, really need to put an end to that. Oh sure we might be able to cut down costs by outsourcing but then we are taking our capita and shipping it overseas, once people start losing jobs here demand goes down and the companies really find themselves in a shitheap of their own making.
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en...I think we have some honest differences here.
1.democratics have balls too, look at Roosvelt, or Truman, or Wilson, these were brave and courageous presidents.

2. Outsourcing is a way to make American companies to become globally competitive. It is true that there will be job cuts, but if those companies do not seek to reduce costs by oursourcing low end jobs, they will soon face tough competitions from companies in China and India. Remember, today's global economy has much less barriers and ground for competition is leveled. U.S has to invest money into education and research to train the workers so they do not have to rely upon low-end jobs but move on to high-tech ones. Remember, most oursourced jobs are low-end manufacturing hard labours.
 
I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, particularly if they have a cushy desk job in the OBM, but...

our defense sucks up huge amounts of cash which ultimately leads nowhere. I take the B-1 bomber as a case in point. Reagan cut the defense budget,and it was one of the best things to happen to the military.

The military's primary goal is to get the largest cuts from budgeting for each respective branch for 35% good use and 65% wastage. Do some background research and find out why the Air Force attempted to falsify records of its budgeting.
 
also, I think tax breaks for the rich is not a good idea, i think we should go back to Clinton's tax policy
tax increase for the rich, tax breaks for the middle class, tax breaks for innovative companies and things like that
 
Chief Bones said:
so who was the best overall at minding the 'store' ... Republicans (or) Democrats?

The answer is obvious to me ... but ...
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Pretty sure I answered that in my statement.

And as for outsourcing.

These "low-end jobs" are the backbone of the American economy, it is the man breaking his back for $9 an hour to build an economy car who or the woman working 60 hours a week at two jobs that pay on average $10 an hour who are the backbone of the economy. Not these $300 an hour doctors. If you try and give everyone an education so they can get a high paying jobs then suddenly inflation accures and you are no better than you started off, except that the person wasted several more years of their life to further their education in a manner that would never pay off. In order for the economy to grow you have to make something. You have to take some aluminum, rubber and oil and produce a car. The economy can only survive so long on service side jobs. These jobs are being outsourced to foreign countries with no minimum wage laws, no worker rights laws and who are working for less than $2 an hour, often paying to live on the site, pay for food and paying for their utilities, so much so that they are making only a few dollars a month when all is said and done. These jobs should stay in America, they are jobs that can be taken by those in this country who need them. Not by people who came from the upper middle class and were able to go to college, but by those who were forced to drop out of High School to help pay the bills at home because their parents have too many bills and can't made ends meet.

Over the holiday season I worked in a call center, do you have any idea how many times I heard "Thank god, you I can understand." Nobody wants to place a call for a tow truck and get patched through to some women in New Delhi who you can't understand. It is a miracle I was able to get the tow truck to show up. How much sense does that make to call for a tow truck in Sioux Falls, SD, middle of the nation and end up talking to a woman in India? It doesn't! I could barely understand her and the company she then called to tow my certainly couldn't understand her either, they ended up calling me directly to find out where I was and where I needed to go. it makes no sense for a company whose job it is to take phone calls from Americans to hire people from India who talk with such a thick accent that it is impossible to understand them. I was amazed, working in that call center, how often peple thanked me for simply being who I am, a midwesterner with a flat accent whom they could understand.

Sending jobs overseas does not help us at all, it lowers our purchasing power, decrease the demand for other goods and adversly affecting those industries as well, it is common sense, keep as many jobs as possible here so that we may have more competition by the employers to get employees and the economy wll go up.
 
Damien
One of the 'facts' that you seemed to miss in your response was who is responsible for the largest single outsourcing cycle with the greatest number of jobs outsourced in history? (Republicans).........(King George Bush).......

REMEMBER - according to George, "outsourcing jobs is good for America" ......

The posture of the Republican Party and the President of the United States, has gone a very long way towards setting these new record highs. Almost every single piece of legislation which has gone over Bush's desk for his signature has favored business over the working stiff ... is it any wonder that outsourcing has become the new mantra of large American businesses?
 
That's because Bush believes in free trade, an opinion that I don't share with him. Why should we let American jobs go overseas to nations that do little to respect free trade in their own nation? And yes, for these who don't get it, I am referring to China's government controlled economy.

However, the Republicans do have the right position on tax cuts for the "rich" (business owners) because they will take the money the government returned to them and expand, increasing the number of jobs available. Of course these rich bastards are greedy, the Republicans exploit this while the Democrats try to sweep it under the rug.
 
Damien435 said:
That's because Bush believes in free trade (Bush's view of free trade only relates to big business making lots of money that can be contributed to the Republican coffers), an opinion that I don't share with him. Why should we let American jobs go overseas to nations that do little to respect free trade in their own nation? And yes, for these who don't get it, I am referring to China's government controlled economy (the biggest free trade agreement with China was as a result of a Bush backed agreement).

However, the Republicans do have the right position on tax cuts for the "rich" (business owners) because they will take the money the government returned to them and expand, increasing the number of jobs available (the statistics don't support your supposition ... most of the profits went to investors ... (and) most jobs that have been created are low paying jobs). Of course these rich bastards are greedy, the Republicans exploit this while the Democrats try to sweep it under the rug.
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Democrats also support free trade ... the biggest difference that I can see though, is that Democrats believe that there should be some kind of governing control placed on free trade agreements ... Republicans don't want ANY kind of control placed in the way of their profiteering.
 
Damien my friend, i got to disagree with some of your statements
If you think low-end jobs are what make U.S economy the best in the world, you are wrong.
If U.S can only compete with China and India on low-end jobs, U.S will collapse overnight because in China and India, people can use 1 dollar to buy what Amercians have to use 9 dollars. You simply cannot win the wage war. In long run, if you just stuck with these jobs, you will lose foreign market and consumers also suffer.

The whole reason why U.S is so strong today is because of the advanced technology and high-end industry. Also, skilled workers. By the way, i dont consider automobile workers low-end, they are skilled workers who are trained to operate complicated machinaries.

Also, you fail to see that although free trade takes away jobs in outsourcing, it also creates jobs as Indian and China open their markets to U.S
trading with China creates 4-8 million jobs for Amerians.
Medias always obsess with bad news like losing jobs, few report creating jobs of trading


I recommand you to read Tom Frieman's "The world is flat" to have a better understanding on free trade and the whole outsourcing concept.
 
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Try Real Life Instead Of Theory.....

chinese-canadian said:
If you think low-end jobs are what make U.S economy the best in the world, you are deadly wrong (nowhere did I say low-end jobs make our economy the best in the world ... just the opposite ... they hurt us because many of the hi-tech jobs have gone over seas and are not returning in any great numbers).
If U.S can only compete with China and India on low-end jobs, U.S will collapse overnight because in China and India, people can use 1 dollar to buy what Americans have to use 9 dollars. You simply cannot win the wage war. In long run, if you just stuck with these jobs, you will lose foreign market and consumers also suffer (the reason this occurs is because the countries you are talking about control their economy, industries and workers wages).

The whole reason why U.S is so strong today is because of the advanced technology and high-end industry. Also, skilled workers. By the way, i don't consider automobile workers low-end, they are skilled workers who are trained to operate complicated machines (I agree ... however ... these were some of the first jobs to be lost because of cutbacks - they are not rebounding).

Also, you fail to see that although free trade takes away jobs in outsourcing, it also creates jobs as Indian and China open their markets to U.S trading with China creates 4-8 million jobs for Americans (again you seem to have missed an important fact ... most of these jobs that you say are created are low-level jobs ... see US Government statistics).
Medias always obsess with bad news like losing jobs, few report creating jobs of trading (at least they don't try to honey cover the facts like the politicians do).

I recommend you to read Tom Frieman's "The world is flat" to have a better understanding on free trade and the whole outsourcing concept (I don't need to read a book to know what is happening ... all I have to do is look at the statistics pre-Bush and where we are now to know that %99 of the programs Republicans and Bush have instituted have hurt the job market ... that includes the tax cuts ... government statistics support this statement and all of the books in the world don't change this fact).
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Theory (as espoused by economists and book authors) sound very good when you read the words ... however ... I live in the real world where my friends and neighbors are hard pressed to have ends meet due to the economy and many people in my community are out of jobs because the Republicans and the President have the power to push through legislation that has a great impact on the economy that doesn't fall within the formulae in books, etc.
OTHERWISE ... IT HAS MEANT THE LOSS OF MANY HIGH AND MEDIUM PAYING JOBS ... AND ... THEY ARE NOT COMING BACK (THIS IS FACT).
 
lol..sorry chief
I was talking to Damien, sorry again for this misunderstanding
(I will correct it)

by the way,
the reason wages are low in China and India is because cost of living is so low there..
like a bottle of beer in China costs about 0.4 U.S dollar, a different story in U.S

also, by selling high-end items like airplanes, cars
well paid jobs for skill workers are created..
like how many planes are sold to China and INdia..how much well-paid jobs are created by that? (India just bought another 100 some planes, China bought a couple hundred few years ago, about 200 planes from Airbus last year)
you see the potential here, Chinese and Indians sell you some low-end products, maybe mid-end, but U.S sell things like computer chips, medicines, airplanes, cars, and stuff
 
chinese-canadian said:
lol..sorry chief
I was talking to Damien, sorry again for this misunderstanding
(I will correct it)

by the way,
the reason wages are low in China and India is because cost of living is so low there..
like a bottle of beer in China costs about 0.4 U.S dollar, a different story in U.S

also, by selling high-end items like airplanes, cars
well paid jobs for skill workers are created..
like how many planes are sold to China and INdia..how much well-paid jobs are created by that? (India just bought another 100 some planes, China bought a couple hundred few years ago, about 200 planes from Airbus last year)
you see the potential here, Chinese and Indians sell you some low-end products, maybe mid-end, but U.S sell things like computer chips, medicines, airplanes, cars, and stuff
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Ahh yes, and the Chinese and Indians are able to give anywhere from 100-1000 people jobs for those low end items where as the "well-paid" jobs are far fewer in number thanks to the automation that is necessary to produce those items to the exact specifications needed. The average American does not benefit from outsourcing or illegal aliens sneaking in and taking jobs that supposedly no American would take. Things like garbage men and picking crops, well I can tell you that is BS. My old garbage man just retired and built himself a house paid for by garbage, the cost of the house? $1,000,000. My family has made a living for several generations, picking crops, a job that supposedly no American would take. Ever since my family emigrated to this country from Sweden during Jackson's administration we have been farming. Without farmers Americans would starve to death or be forced to buy crops from China, despite their great importance farmers in this nation are damn near completely dependant on the government to survive because there is no money in farming, well, no profit that is.

Whether you will admit it or not it is the guy breaking his back for $9 an hour that made America what it is today. There simply is not enough demand for high end products to make this country function, we need these jobs that are being sent overseas, how many millions of Americans who need a job are without one? Way to many, that's how many. And why do you act like selling aircraft to China is a good thing? Should America feel nice and smug that we are selling China the weapons they will likely one day use against American soldiers?

Chief, I appreciate your trying to help (not really) but in the future if you are going to quote me actually quote me, don't throw your crap in with what I have said. If you insist on doing that however I am sure FOX can set you up with your own show weekdays at 2:30pm. But if you insist on putting words in my mouth I would be more than happy to return the favor.
 
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yet, those who are making 100$ somethig are really those who make U.S economy the most advanced and powerful in the world.

If U.S just closes its door and be content with its 9$ 10$ a hour, soon U.S economy will lag behind China and INdia, where workers can get the same job done with 1$, 2$ due to low cost of living.
 
Yep, food's so cheap, which explains why they are in danger of starving to death if their populations expand anymore.
 
Damien435 said:
Ahh yes, and the Chinese and Indians are able to give anywhere from 100-1000 people jobs for those low end items where as the "well-paid" jobs are far fewer in number thanks to the automation that is necessary to produce those items to the exact specifications needed. The average American does not benefit from outsourcing or illegal aliens sneaking in and taking jobs that supposedly no American would take. Things like garbage men and picking crops, well I can tell you that is BS. My old garbage man just retired and built himself a house paid for by garbage, the cost of the house? $1,000,000. My family has made a living for several generations, picking crops, a job that supposedly no American would take. Ever since my family emigrated to this country from Sweden during Jackson's administration we have been farming. Without farmers Americans would starve to death or be forced to buy crops from China, despite their great importance farmers in this nation are damn near completely dependant on the government to survive because there is no money in farming, well, no profit that is.

Whether you will admit it or not it is the guy breaking his back for $9 an hour that made America what it is today. There simply is not enough demand for high end products to make this country function, we need these jobs that are being sent overseas, how many millions of Americans who need a job are without one? Way to many, that's how many. And why do you act like selling aircraft to China is a good thing? Should America feel nice and smug that we are selling China the weapons they will likely one day use against American soldiers?

Chief, I appreciate your trying to help (not really) but in the future if you are going to quote me actually quote me, don't throw your crap in with what I have said. If you insist on doing that however I am sure FOX can set you up with your own show weekdays at 2:30pm. But if you insist on putting words in my mouth I would be more than happy to return the favor.
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I think you have a fundemental misconception about the whole outsourcing and free trade thing

First, when U.S companies move some of its operations to other nations, they become bigger and more profitable (by lowering cost and gaining foreign market), in turn, they pay more taxes and government will have more revenue to help ordinary folks.

2. outsourcing helps to lower cost and price of many items, do you except to pay 200$ for a pair of made in U.S jean? or a same quality one but for 20$? consumers benefit at the end

3. I guess you are fed with too much of media crap on obsessing with job losess but cannot see the job gains from the free trade. when low-end jobs are lost to Indian and Chinese, U.S gain market in China and INdia and sell other high-end products or mid-end products made by skilled workers (most of americans are). As a result, other jobs are created like aircraft industry, computer industry, cars, medicines. These jobs also tend to pay more than those outsourced jobs. So people have more money in their pocket (also due to low cost of other items). THus they can spend more on services and create more service jobs.
4. You except U.S economy continue to dominate the world when Americans stuck in the stage of the so call "garbage man" thing (your word)????? No. U.S companies have to outsource and stay competitive, otherwise, they die and go bankrupt, even those jobs left in U.S will be lost

5. by aircraft, I mean civil aircraft, I don't fly to U.S with a F-18
 
Damien435 said:
Yep, food's so cheap, which explains why they are in danger of starving to death if their populations expand anymore.
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BS
show me the evidence that CHinese are starving? in fact, obesity is now a problem

cost of living is low, that is reflected in all areas.
beer, clothes, services, cars, video games, computer parts (except CPU and GPU i think)
 
Another person who misses the point

Damien435 said:
Chief, I appreciate your trying to help (not really) but in the future if you are going to quote me actually quote me, don't throw your crap in with what I have said. If you insist on doing that however I am sure FOX can set you up with your own show weekdays at 2:30pm. But if you insist on putting words in my mouth I would be more than happy to return the favor.
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Damien
If you are going to accuse me of something get your facts straight ... I didn't put words in your mouth.

NOTE: Parens () and blue lettering contained within your 'quote' were my comments about your post ... in no way were they your words. This is one accepted way of commenting on a lengthy or complicated post.

As far as crap ... I didn't call what you posted crap even though I might have ... that is not how you have a discussion on this forum.

In the future feel free to contact me via PM if you have a problem with something I have posted before you make an *ss out of yourself.
 
Damien435 said:
Wow, I umm couldn't undestand most of your second to last post so I really can't comment on it.
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that is why I recommand you to read The WOrld is Flat by Thomas Frieman

because you seem to have a fundemental misconception about the whole free trade and globalization thing
 
Here's the thing, I read to be entertained, years of schooling has taught me that any other way of reading requires sifting through 99 pages of BS to find that one paragraph you need where as on the internet you can find a spot where that one paragraph has already been singled out.
 
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