The world only protests when Israel Strikes

To both Sky and AB Shorts Momma, I suggest you base your assumptions on the facts rather than your desires.

The Israeli occupiers have killed far more Palestinians than the reverse.
Below is a copy of some figures released by an Israeli organisation trying to get some justice for Palestinians. Not even all Israelis are as blind as yourselves to the facts.

I would suggest that these figures are very moderate, as I'm sure the Israeli government would be fudging the figures to minimise their culpability.

Death003converted.jpg
 
Last edited:
AB_Shorts_Momma said:
You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything... I can find statistics for anything.
Click to expand...
Therein lies your problem, obviously you don't cross check to see which "statistics" are more likely to be correct and have supporting evidence.

You'd be better of if you stood for what is right rather than what your Government tells you. If you lived and fought through the Vietnam era you would know the truth of that.

SHERMAN said:
intresting stuff there spike.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying it is 100% correct Sherman, but I do think that it gives some perspective to what is going on. I am not so stupid as to think that all of these groups don't have their own little axe to grind. I'd very much like to see the figures published by the Israeli government if they were available. It would be an interesting comparison.
 
Last edited:
senojekips said:
To both Sky and AB Shorts Momma, I suggest you base your assumptions on the facts rather than your desires.


I would suggest that these figures are very moderate, as I'm sure the Israeli government would be fudging the figures to minimise their culpability.


Death003.jpg
Click to expand...


senojekips, please provide a link for the statistics you are quoting.
 
actually my beliefs have nothing to do with my government, my country did and dose alot of things I dont agree with.
 
Last edited:
You know, I talk about things in general. You are making it personal.

First off, you can show me any "document" you like, but where is your supporting proof? You are telling me to look at all sides, yet you aren't telling me where you are getting your "information" so that I can even attempt to look at your side of things.

Play fair. Last I looked, all sides are welcome to his or her opinion.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, it is MY opinion that I posted.
 
AB_Shorts_Momma said:
You know, I talk about things in general. You are making it personal.

First off, you can show me any "document" you like, but where is your supporting proof? You are telling me to look at all sides, yet you aren't telling me where you are getting your "information" so that I can even attempt to look at your side of things.

Play fair. Last I looked, all sides are welcome to his or her opinion.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, it is MY opinion that I posted.
Click to expand...
What we are talking about here is all about "Playing fair", and it is a slap in the face when someone just writes off supporting evidence as "some document". If you have been reading all that is going on here you will note that even Sherman has stated that he regards the organisation that provided the information as being a reasonably credible source even though it is not to his advantage. It is my personal view that honesty such as this makes Sherman a very credible person.

You demand sources from me, yet you state that what you say, is no more than your own personal opinion, then have the temerity to try to discredit my sources which at least have some backing (even from my opposition). This is a debate that is hopefully being based on facts from both sides, personal opinions really don't count for much especially when they have no basis to support them.

I personally "think" that the moon is really made of green cheese, but that doesn't count either.
 
SHERMAN said:
by the way, that table is not a very condeming piece of evidence, at least to me.
Click to expand...
Sherman, please do not tempt me. I could really strike hard "below the belt" here. But in the interests of civillity and peoples personal feelings I will not.

All I will say is: Remember those who try to discredit the Holocaust figures and justify the Nazi's reasoning. To some, those figures were not regarded as condemning.
 
Last edited:
really? Lets have a look at your chart.

Total deaths:
Palestinians: 4918.
Israelis: aorund 1062.
Precentage of civilian/non-combatent deaths out of total deaths:
Palestinians:~58%(I used 650 of the unknowns, so Im on the safe side)
Israelis:~68%

So it would seem Israel maintains a higher level of morality, based on civilian per military casualties.

Next:
~0.05 Foreign citizen deaths were caused by Palestinans per one Israel killed.
~0.005 Foreign citizens deaths were caused by Israel per one armed/military involved Palestinian killed.

So, it would seem Israel maintains a higher standart in keeping foreign nationals safe.


Next:
0.12 palestinian deaths were caused by palestinians, per one palestinian death caused by israel.
120(And I highly doubt this noumber is not too low) palestinians were killed for suspected colaberation with israel.
Not one Israeli, arab or jewish, was killed for suspected collaberation with Palestinians.

So it seems israel maintains a better sense of justice than the palestinians.

You see the problem with "death statistics" is they can be easily toyed with to tell diffrent stories.
 
Last edited:
I'm not great with the quote function on this site so I'm just going to cut/paste...

"You'd be better of if you stood for what is right rather than what your Government tells you. If you lived and fought through the Vietnam era you would know the truth of that."

and

"To both Sky and AB Shorts Momma, I suggest you base your assumptions on the facts rather than your desires."

These were both directed at ME, MY opinions, etc. I requested, not demanded a link. I was interupted while putting together my post, and a the time I started writing it, you had not replied with the website.

I can agree with trying to share views and opinions. I love a good debate, where facts are given from both sides, and the sides debate the items given. I never agree with going after the PERSON.
 
easy. the debate is heated, all sides feel passionately about it. I know I do. Lets just stick to the toppic.
 
SHERMAN said:
really? Lets have a look at your chart.

Total deaths:
Palestinians: 4918.
Israelis: aorund 1062.
Precentage of civilian/non-combatent deaths out of total deaths:
Palestinians:~58%(I used 650 of the unknowns, so Im on the safe side)
Israelis:~68%

So it would seem Israel maintains a higher level of morality, based on civilian per military casualties.
Click to expand...
I must agree in this case. This is bought about by the fact that the palestinians are fighting a Guerrilla style war against a regular Force. It is merely their war of evening up what they see as an imbalance in manpower, organisation and weaponry, but this, in no way justifies their deliberate targeting of civilians.

Next:
~0.05 Foreign citizen deaths were caused by Palestinans per one Israel killed.
~0.005 Foreign citizens deaths were caused by Israel per one armed/military involved Palestinian killed.

So, it would seem Israel maintains a higher standart in keeping foreign nationals safe..

Next:
0.12 palestinian death was caused by palestinians, per one palestinian death caused by israel.
120(And I highly doubt this noumber is not too low) palestinians were killed for suspected colaberation with israel.
Not one Israeli, arab or jewish, was killed for suspected collaberation with Palestinians.

So it seems israel maintains a better since of justice than the palestinians.
Click to expand...
Correct,... but I would expect no less from a well organised and Governed State populated by a people who have given the world some of it's greatest minds and philanthropists.

You see the problem with "death statistics" is they can be easily toyed with to tell diffrent stories.
Click to expand...
To me, the figures that were of real importance, were those regarding Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces as against the reverse situation. And we must remember, this these figures only cover the last 8 years.
 
AB_Shorts_Momma said:
I can agree with trying to share views and opinions. I love a good debate, where facts are given from both sides, and the sides debate the items given. I never agree with going after the PERSON.
Click to expand...
When one or two particular persons make a statement, replying directly to those persons is purely a matter of good manners, so as to not include others to whom the answer is not addressed.

In view of Sherman's request, I will leave it at that.
 
I must agree in this case. This is bought about by the fact that the palestinians are fighting a Guerrilla style war against a regular Force. It is merely their war of evening up what they see as an imbalance in manpower, organisation and weaponry, but this, in no way justifies their deliberate targeting of civilians.
Click to expand...

No it dosent. Also considering the fact that Israel used weapons with much higher HE ammounts, this is surprise to me as well. I did not know what hte results will be when I did these calculation, I was only trying to make sens of what to me is a useless "death chart". You would expect the side throwing the 1000 pound bombs to cause far higher kill ratios and far higher colleterall damage. In fact this shows(to me at least) that IDF ROEs are actually kept quite stirctly.

Correct,... but I would expect no less from a well organised and Governed State populated by a people who have given the world some of it's greatest minds and philanthropists.
Click to expand...

Double standarts dont work. You cant say that one side is barbaric based on one moral scale and the other isent based on another moral scale.
By the way, only 2 people were executed in Israel. Ever. One was Eichman. The other was a Lt Col who was executed by a military field tribunal, and later vindicated(1948 ).

To me, the figures that were of real importance, were those regarding Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces as against the reverse situation
Click to expand...

Those noumbers are not surprisng. We are talking about a ~1-5 overall kil ratio, with ~1-10 kill ration when you only count combatants. This is expected when one side is much much stronger. If the IDF had a lower kill ratio against Palestinian militia, it would be very odd indeed.

Although the material is a little dated, I found a UN document with some statistics as well...

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/d9d...2!OpenDocument
Click to expand...

That is a very good source, and their results are similar to my little calculations.
 
Last edited:
I just wrote a lengthy answer, only to accidentally delete it when I went to check on another post. Perhaps we will all be better off if I was just to say that I agree with virtually all you have said, with some exceptions to the part about "double standards".

I feel that there is a double standard in the two sides, and therefore they must be judged by the standards that fit their particular circumstances.

One is a well governed State with large well trained regular forces, the other is a gathering of highly fractured groups with little or no organisation and little agreement between them, other than they all see Israel as their enemy.

That's the short answer, and I don't wish to type my original answer all out again. You probably don't really wish to read all of it anyway:smile:.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top