Swedens attempt to join NATO

BritinBritain

BritinBritain

Per Ardua Ad Astra
Turkey is continuing to block Sweden's membership of NATO.
The ink had barely dried on Finland and Sweden’s joint application letter before Turkey started conditioning their aspiring NATO memberships, saying they posed a threat to its national security and they needed to take more concrete steps if they ever wanted its blessing to join the military alliance.

“Neither country has an open, clear stance against terrorist organisations,” President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said just hours after the application was filed, accusing them of acting as safe havens for Kurdish militant groups such as the banned Kurdistan Workers' Party, PKK. He also demanded they lift an arms export ban imposed on Turkey in 2019 after it launched an offensive in northern Syria targeting the YPG, the Kurdish militia fighting the Islamic State group there.

Is it just me, but does Turkey sound more pro Russia then NATO/Europe? Personally, I think NATO would be far better off getting rid of Turkey and admitting Sweden and Finland into NATO.
 
Fears Turkey is on brink of all-out invasion as military trucks seen rolling into Syria.

Turkey might be just days away from an all-out war with Syria as troops continue to attack northern parts of the country. According to Reuters, "Turkey's army needs just a few more days to be ready for a ground offensive into northern Syria and such a decision may come at a cabinet meeting on Monday".

The commander of the main US-backed Kurdish-led force in Syria said Saturday they have halted operations against the Islamic State group due to Turkish attacks on northern Syria over the past week.

Mazloum Abdi of the Syrian Democratic Forces told reporters that after nearly a week of Turkish airstrikes on northern Syria, Ankara is now preparing for a ground offensive. He said Turkey-backed opposition fighters are getting ready to take part in the operations.

Abdi added that Turkish strikes over the past week have caused severe damage to the region's infrastructure.

Abdi said Turkey is taking advantage of the deadly November 13 bombing in Istanbul that Ankara blames on Kurdish groups. Kurdish organisations have denied any involvement in the Istanbul attack that killed six and wounded dozens.
 
BritinBritain said:
Turkey is continuing to block Sweden's membership of NATO.
The ink had barely dried on Finland and Sweden’s joint application letter before Turkey started conditioning their aspiring NATO memberships, saying they posed a threat to its national security and they needed to take more concrete steps if they ever wanted its blessing to join the military alliance.

“Neither country has an open, clear stance against terrorist organisations,” President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said just hours after the application was filed, accusing them of acting as safe havens for Kurdish militant groups such as the banned Kurdistan Workers' Party, PKK. He also demanded they lift an arms export ban imposed on Turkey in 2019 after it launched an offensive in northern Syria targeting the YPG, the Kurdish militia fighting the Islamic State group there.

Is it just me, but does Turkey sound more pro Russia then NATO/Europe? Personally, I think NATO would be far better off getting rid of Turkey and admitting Sweden and Finland into NATO.
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I have argued that both Turkiye and Hungary have shown to be more pro Russian than NATO and that perhaps NATO needs a rethink on its constitution to sideline these vested interest processes.
Erdogan has been like this ever since the EU put him on hold and if I was NATO or the EU I would be concerned about how secure any shared information might be at the moment.
 
BritinBritain said:
Turkey is continuing to block Sweden's membership of NATO.
The ink had barely dried on Finland and Sweden’s joint application letter before Turkey started conditioning their aspiring NATO memberships, saying they posed a threat to its national security and they needed to take more concrete steps if they ever wanted its blessing to join the military alliance.

“Neither country has an open, clear stance against terrorist organisations,” President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said just hours after the application was filed, accusing them of acting as safe havens for Kurdish militant groups such as the banned Kurdistan Workers' Party, PKK. He also demanded they lift an arms export ban imposed on Turkey in 2019 after it launched an offensive in northern Syria targeting the YPG, the Kurdish militia fighting the Islamic State group there.

Is it just me, but does Turkey sound more pro Russia then NATO/Europe? Personally, I think NATO would be far better off getting rid of Turkey and admitting Sweden and Finland into NATO.
Click to expand...

Erdogan does it of domestic reasons. There is an election next year and the polls are not in his favor. He also wants the US to lift the hold on the upgrade of his F-16 planes.

There is another option and that is to ignore Turkiey and Hungary. All the other NATO countries have ratified Finland and Sweden as members.

Hungary might be losing their Gripen planes if they say no. They haven't bought them, they are leasing them.
 
It would be a mistake to expel Turkey from NATO. Turkey is a strategically important member of NATO and there isn't a structure in NATO to expel a member state so it will be difficult to do it. It isn't in Tukey's interest to leave NATO either, if it does they problems with Greece will be on a different level when Greece can use the article 5 against Turkey. To expel Turkey will most likely push Turkey further into the Russian camp and maybe ruin the Turkish economy even more than what Erdogan has done so far.

It was maybe a mistake to support the Kurdish groups in Syria and Iraq. Maybe it had been better to create an anti-IS coalition with Turkey to fight IS. We are living in an interesting time.
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
It would be a mistake to expel Turkey from NATO. Turkey is a strategically important member of NATO and there isn't a structure in NATO to expel a member state so it will be difficult to do it. It isn't in Tukey's interest to leave NATO either, if it does they problems with Greece will be on a different level when Greece can use the article 5 against Turkey. To expel Turkey will most likely push Turkey further into the Russian camp and maybe ruin the Turkish economy even more than what Erdogan has done so far.

It was maybe a mistake to support the Kurdish groups in Syria and Iraq. Maybe it had been better to create an anti-IS coalition with Turkey to fight IS. We are living in an interesting time.
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Why shaft them when Kurdish groups seem to have been the most reliable allies in the middle east the west has in order to support an egomaniacal dictator?
 
MontyB said:
Why shaft them when Kurdish groups seem to have been the most reliable allies in the middle east the west has in order to support an egomaniacal dictator?
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I was thinking about the US when the US is supposed to be allied to Turkey. It alienated Turkey and might have been a better ally than the Kurds to fight IS. Just a speculation from my side of things.
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
Ukraine got MBTs, now it wants fighter planes. Does Germany have any to give to Ukraine? Hehe
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We have spoken about fighters for quite a while, I lean toward the F-16 as there are plenty of them around in storage but I do think the Grippen is the best aircraft for them when you take into account the maintenance and runway conditions.
Unfortunately I don't think Sweden can supply the volumes needed.
 
MontyB said:
We have spoken about fighters for quite a while, I lean toward the F-16 as there are plenty of them around in storage but I do think the Grippen is the best aircraft for them when you take into account the maintenance and runway conditions.
Unfortunately I don't think Sweden can supply the volumes needed.
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The F-16 is the air equivalent of the Leo2, there are a lot of them around the world. The Ukrainians have asked for the Gripen, we have a lot of older versions of it, but the logistics around the Gripen speaks against it. Maybe the Ukrainians can get older versions of the F-18.
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
The F-16 is the air equivalent of the Leo2, there are a lot of them around the world. The Ukrainians have asked for the Gripen, we have a lot of older versions of it, but the logistics around the Gripen speaks against it. Maybe the Ukrainians can get older versions of the F-18.
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There is no doubt the Gripen is the best aircraft for Ukrainian conditions but they also need lots of aircraft quickly and I suspect the US has the mass training and maintenance capacity that Sweden probably doesn't.
There is also some suggestion that older block Eurofighters might be an option but I imagine the learning curve on that would be rather steep.
 
Shall the west give the attack helicopters too? They are actually not getting the stuff for free. Ukraine is leasing what they get.
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
Shall the west give the attack helicopters too? They are actually not getting the stuff for free. Ukraine is leasing what they get.
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The role of helicopters in this conflict seems pretty limited and the number being shot down means sending anything more than transport helicopters could be expensive with little to no benefit.
If we are going to do more then I would stick with aircraft and long range missiles.
 
MontyB said:
So how much does Turkiye want its F-16s?

Seems the choice is, approve NATO expansion or rattle around in old F-16s.

https://www.france24.com/en/america...ingent-on-turkey-s-support-for-nato-expansion
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Finland and Sweden have done what the three countries agreed on in Madrid. Turkiye has added more conditions for approval of Finland and Sweden. The Turkish economy is in the drain, Erdogan wants to be reelected and what is better than portraying himself as a strong leader. His objections have been directed to the US and I bet he will say yes if he gets the F-16 upgrades and the new F-16. The US has another possibility to pressure Erdogan and that is to sell more advanced weapons to Greece.
 
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