Should the Democratic Primaries in Michigan and Florida Count?

[The Other Guy]

Right now, they don't should they? I want to see others opinions...

My Response? No way. Hilary says that she's winning the popular vote. Well, yeah. The only reason that she won both Michigan and Florida, is because all of the other Democratic candidates pulled out when they found out that the delegates wouldn't count. So she was the only one running. Now that she's losing, she wants those votes to count because it will give here an advantage. Yes she won there. Yes Fidel Castro won many elections in Cuba. What do they have in common? They were both running unopposed.

 

[Team Infidel]

they broke the rules. now they want a do-over.. NOT!

 

[DTop]

They're not looking for a do over, they just want 1 vote for each voter. This whole primary fiasco has left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of people. Maybe now that the DNC has decided to seat all the delegates at the convention (with only half a vote each), things will settle down and they (Democrats) will stop shooting themselves in the foot. Then again, we're talking about politicians and they're not known for their unselfish acts.

 

[5.56X45mm]

I believe that the Votes should count in my opinion. The idea of the party (either one) setting terms to sovereign states kinda pisses me off.

On a funny note. Back in 2000. The Democrats kept on bragging that they want to "Make Every Vote Count" and yet in their own elections for their own primary they don't make every vote count.

 

[tomtom22]

Florida - yes
Michigan - no

 

[Team Infidel]

sorry folks, they knew the rules about WHEN to have their primary. They violated them, and now that it is close, they cry.

They have basically killed the party. Go McCain! See you at 1600 Penn....

 

[bulldogg]

Does it even really matter when corporate donations are the majority of any Rep, Sen or Presidential hopeful and they contribute in equal amounts to BOTH parties? Our votes are a farcical show to keep the herd placated. $ talks, BS walks... and arguing about these issues is just what these people want so you are distracted from real issues that could actually change the status quo.

Now someone get me off this soapbox, heights make me dizzy.

 

[DTop]

Well TI, there are other considerations. It may be a little more complicated than one would first think. Consider this.
Florida’s Primary date, as determined by state law, violated one part of the "Rules" because it came before February 5, 2008. The DNC only allows Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina to go before February 5, but Florida law set theirs for January 29.
The DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) is the only body that can grant final approval of the Delegate Selection Plan, but the Credentials Committee of the Democratic National Convention decides who actually attends the Convention.
Instead if saying it was just Florida going off on its own as some kind of renegade state, consider that the state legislature is controlled by Republicans. So, that early primary date was determined not by Democrats but by Republicans. Interesting, no?
Also, consider that before a specific date had been decided upon by the Republicans, some Democrats did actively support the idea of moving earlier in the calendar year. That changed when Speaker Rubio announced he wanted to break the Rules of the Democratic and Republican National Committees. Following this announcement, DNC and Florida Democratic Party staff talked about the possibility that the FL primary date would move up in violation of the "Rules". Party leaders, Chairwoman Thurman and members of Congress then lobbied Democratic members of the Legislature to prevent the primary from moving earlier than February 5th. Democratic Party leadership spent time
discussing opposition to and the ramifications of a pre-February 5th primary with legislators, former and current Congressional members, DNC members, DNC staff, donors, activists, etc., etc... In response to the Party’s efforts, Senate Democratic Leaders Geller and Wilson and House Democratic Leaders Gelber and Cusack introduced amendments to hold the Primary on the first Tuesday in February, instead of January 29th. These were both defeated by the overwhelming Republican majority in each house.
So, it seems worth considering that even though the Republicans changed the primary date, the DNC wants to "punish" the Democratic voters.

 

[The Other Guy]

Well TI, there are other considerations. It may be a little more complicated than one would first think. Consider this.
Florida’s Primary date, as determined by state law, violated one part of the "Rules" because it came before February 5, 2008. The DNC only allows Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina to go before February 5, but Florida law set theirs for January 29.
The DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) is the only body that can grant final approval of the Delegate Selection Plan, but the Credentials Committee of the Democratic National Convention decides who actually attends the Convention.
Instead if saying it was just Florida going off on its own as some kind of renegade state, consider that the state legislature is controlled by Republicans. So, that early primary date was determined not by Democrats but by Republicans. Interesting, no?
Also, consider that before a specific date had been decided upon by the Republicans, some Democrats did actively support the idea of moving earlier in the calendar year. That changed when Speaker Rubio announced he wanted to break the Rules of the Democratic and Republican National Committees. Following this announcement, DNC and Florida Democratic Party staff talked about the possibility that the FL primary date would move up in violation of the "Rules". Party leaders, Chairwoman Thurman and members of Congress then lobbied Democratic members of the Legislature to prevent the primary from moving earlier than February 5th. Democratic Party leadership spent time
discussing opposition to and the ramifications of a pre-February 5th primary with legislators, former and current Congressional members, DNC members, DNC staff, donors, activists, etc., etc... In response to the Party’s efforts, Senate Democratic Leaders Geller and Wilson and House Democratic Leaders Gelber and Cusack introduced amendments to hold the Primary on the first Tuesday in February, instead of January 29th. These were both defeated by the overwhelming Republican majority in each house.
So, it seems worth considering that even though the Republicans changed the primary date, the DNC wants to "punish" the Democratic voters.

Seems alright, except the the results shouldn't count because Obama pulled out and was not in the primary. Clinton signed a paper that she would recognize that the results were not to count, and ALL candidates pulled out with the exception of Clinton. Who won by default.

 

[DTop]

Florida State law allows candidates who wish to withdraw from the Florida primary to do so by filing an affidavit stating that he or she is not a candidate for President of the United States of America. In other words: to get off the ballot in Florida, a candidate has to swear that he or she isn’t running for President.

 

[WNxRogue]

Florida State law allows candidates who wish to withdraw from the Florida primary to do so by filing an affidavit stating that he or she is not a candidate for President of the United States of America. In other words: to get off the ballot in Florida, a candidate has to swear that he or she isn’t running for President.

I dont think it was that he actually pulled himself off the ballet, just that he never put himself on there in the first place.

Granted, im not really sure. I know thats what he did in michigan, but maybe not in florida.

 

[The Other Guy]

The Republicans want the votes to count, because that means that Hillary gets the nomination, and even a lousy candidate like McCain could beat her.

 

[mmarsh]

sorry folks, they knew the rules about WHEN to have their primary. They violated them, and now that it is close, they cry.

They have basically killed the party. Go McCain! See you at 1600 Penn....

TI

Actually both states violated Republican primary rules as well, not just the Democrats. There is no effect on the GOP because their party race wasn't as close.

But I agree on the main point. Both states were told of the consequences if they broke the rules a year and a half before the primary. Both were told by both parties that the delegetes would not be seated if the defied the rules. Both the GOP and DNC told them this. There really in no position to whine. I am sorry for the voters, but their state local officials made a political gamble and lost.

Nor do I think they killed the Party. Both Hillary and Obama are beating McCain in national polls by 47-43%. McCain has got money issues, a disgruntled base, supports unpopular issues (War, immigration), is facing more questioning about his deals with lobbists, and is weighed down by a hated President Bush. McCain can still win, a 4 point difference is not insurmountable. but he's the one with the bigger problem IMHO.

 

[DTop]

I dont think it was that he actually pulled himself off the ballet, just that he never put himself on there in the first place.

Granted, im not really sure. I know thats what he did in michigan, but maybe not in florida.

You're right, as I recall and that was the point. Obama didn't pull himself off the ballot, he chose not to be on it because he felt he couldn't win, not for the good of the party or any other unselfish reason.

Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight and it really seems like six of one or a half dozen of the other as to which of them survives their primary process. I think that the most interesting phase is about to be upon us. That's when the party faithful and those who reserve the right to make up their minds when they see fit will begin to polarize around their candidate of choice. The VP choices could be a critical factor.

What could damage Obama's campaign is if Clinton's supporters remain angry enough not to vote for him in the general election. Clinton herself could put a fly in the ointment if she decides to contest the seating of the Michigan delegates. I think her backers would see that as a sign to keep on fighting. When I read statements like the one from chief Clinton strategist Harold Ikes that said: "Mrs. Clinton has instructed me to reserve her rights to take this to the credentials committee.", I can see possible trouble on the horizon.

November is still a long way off and things can and probably will change.

 

[mmarsh]

What could damage Obama's campaign is if Clinton's supporters remain angry enough not to vote for him in the general election. Clinton herself could put a fly in the ointment if she decides to contest the seating of the Michigan delegates. I think her backers would see that as a sign to keep on fighting. When I read statements like the one from chief Clinton strategist Harold Ikes that said: "Mrs. Clinton has instructed me to reserve her rights to take this to the credentials committee.", I can see possible trouble on the horizon.

Hello DTop.

Thats been speculated, but I don't think thats likely to happen. The people that have threatened this are the far left neo-feminist groups and even they know that Obama is more in key with their views than McCain is. A McCain victory is a big defeat to this group than Clinton conceding her presidential aspirations. What I might see is that when Hillary eventually conceeds (and she will) they will be pissed at first and then gravitate toward someone like Michelle Obama. Time heals all wounds, and there is still plenty of time till November as you correctly stated.

 

[5.56X45mm]

Back in 2000 the Democrats kept on preaching "MAKE EVERY VOTE COUNT!" and yet in their own primary election. They will not even count the votes of their own party members. I have one word for this.

Hypocrisy

Josef Stalin said it best.... It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes.


As a Republican I couldn't be happier but I still believe that every vote should count even if it is for the party that I hate and despise. But this shows two major issues.

1) The Democrats don't listen to their own preaching and that they don't give a damn since they're socialist elitists.

2) The common man is not able to vote anymore since it is simply a race between two parties. A major overhaul needs to be done. We the People are the People. Not the Party like how it was done in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, or any other two bit dictatorship. This needs to be changed.

 

[mmarsh]

Back in 2000 the Democrats kept on preaching "MAKE EVERY VOTE COUNT!" and yet in their own primary election. They will not even count the votes of their own party members. I have one word for this.

Hypocrisy

Josef Stalin said it best.... It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes.


As a Republican I couldn't be happier but I still believe that every vote should count even if it is for the party that I hate and despise. But this shows two major issues.

1) The Democrats don't listen to their own preaching and that they don't give a damn since they're socialist elitists.

2) The common man is not able to vote anymore since it is simply a race between two parties. A major overhaul needs to be done. We the People are the People. Not the Party like how it was done in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, or any other two bit dictatorship. This needs to be changed.

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First of all, the GOP did exactly the same thing. They didn't seat Fla or Mich delegates either. As I said earlier the reason, you don't hear about it is because the GOP race is already settled, whereas the DNC race isn't. So its just not the Democrats, its the Republicans too.

Secondly its not hypocrisy. Primaries are private elections as both the GOP and DNC are private organizations just like a company. These organizations have their own rules. Like any organization, you break the rules and you face the music.

A vote in the general election is a protected by the US Constitution. But the Constitution does not not prevent political parties from making their own internal rules.

Both states were warned against moving their primary a year and a half before by BOTH parties. BOTH parties told them of their candidates wouldn't be seated if they proceed in this fashion. They ignored the warning.

Are you suggested we adopt a parlimentary system as its done almost everywhere else? I don't disagree, but it would require several MAJOR changes to the Constitution.

 

[Del Boy]

TI

McCain can still win, a 4 point difference is not insurmountable. but he's the one with the bigger problem IMHO.

That may be so MM - but always remember that there is still my big McCain speech to come in October! :rock:

 

[DTop]

Hello DTop.

Thats been speculated, but I don't think thats likely to happen. The people that have threatened this are the far left neo-feminist groups and even they know that Obama is more in key with their views than McCain is. A McCain victory is a big defeat to this group than Clinton conceding her presidential aspirations. What I might see is that when Hillary eventually conceeds (and she will) they will be pissed at first and then gravitate toward someone like Michelle Obama. Time heals all wounds, and there is still plenty of time till November as you correctly stated.

I don't pretend to comprehend the thought process of any extremist types. I think the fact that they can be illogical creates the potential for them to do anything. The polls indicate a virtual tie with either Clinton or Obama against McCain, as 4 or so points is within the margin of error of most any poll. The McCain camp has only raised about half the money that either of the Dems have so in that sense, I'd agree that the Republicans have a disadvantage to this point. I think it's going to be quite interesting to see what the Dems do during and after the convention.

 

[mmarsh]

I don't pretend to comprehend the thought process of any extremist types. I think the fact that they can be illogical creates the potential for them to do anything. The polls indicate a virtual tie with either Clinton or Obama against McCain, as 4 or so points is within the margin of error of most any poll. The McCain camp has only raised about half the money that either of the Dems have so in that sense, I'd agree that the Republicans have a disadvantage to this point. I think it's going to be quite interesting to see what the Dems do during and after the convention.

I'm in agreement. 4 points isnt much, still lots of time, anything could happen.