Second Australian VC awarded in Afghanistan.
In fact, I respect your "culture".
I dont agree with you on many things, but I dont call you names. Some of you on the other hand...
What if I was an extremist hippie? What If I told you that you shouldnt reward a man for killing other human beings? That rewarding violence is a mistake.
It's a very valid opinion by the way. Not mine, as I believe that there is violence in human nature and that sooner or later we will have to bash each others skulls to maintain a minimum level of peace.
But you have to absolutely understand that people are free. They dont owe you anything. They dont have to bow to your culture.
If you think that a cow is sacred/holy, It doesnt give you the right to take out my right to eat a burger.
We do the same with Muslims, you dont eat pork and you dont drink alcohol, well, I'm happy for you, but I enjoy a good casse-croute with ham and butter. And I will certainly not stop enjoying wine. And I will have a beer watching a soccer game with friends. I dont force you to live and think like me. And you will do the same.
And we werent even here. I dont know what you took from my interventions here... But I will try to explain one last time.
Call it lack of imagination or lack of knowledge... But I guess that I over-estimate the firepower of both artillery, gunships and even Western troops/infantry in general. They have snipers capable of ripping a man with 50cal at huge distances, they have good guns, well trained soldiers (our best soldiers in fact are there)... Well the works...
Using conventional weapons, may it be machine guns, tanks etc... against Western troops is pure suicide.
The enemy have to resort to guerrilla tactics and terrorism to take out a few soldiers a year (I know it's horrible to say, but I'm talking about casualties as a statistic).
Well, long story short, in my mind: Western troops kicking ass in conventional combat = normal stuff.
And the report isnt very detailed. Well, I didnt see the "nightmare" that makes it a "medal material". Honest mistake. Do you have to get mad for that?
And the simple rule with me is that if you are jerk with me, I'm a jerk with you... I saw that some people got angry. I could easily "back off" with a "I'm sorry, didnt mean to..." but I believe that it's not my fault. They chose to get angry. Their problem...
I dont agree with you on many things, but I dont call you names. Some of you on the other hand...
What if I was an extremist hippie? What If I told you that you shouldnt reward a man for killing other human beings? That rewarding violence is a mistake.
It's a very valid opinion by the way. Not mine, as I believe that there is violence in human nature and that sooner or later we will have to bash each others skulls to maintain a minimum level of peace.
But you have to absolutely understand that people are free. They dont owe you anything. They dont have to bow to your culture.
If you think that a cow is sacred/holy, It doesnt give you the right to take out my right to eat a burger.
We do the same with Muslims, you dont eat pork and you dont drink alcohol, well, I'm happy for you, but I enjoy a good casse-croute with ham and butter. And I will certainly not stop enjoying wine. And I will have a beer watching a soccer game with friends. I dont force you to live and think like me. And you will do the same.
And we werent even here. I dont know what you took from my interventions here... But I will try to explain one last time.
Call it lack of imagination or lack of knowledge... But I guess that I over-estimate the firepower of both artillery, gunships and even Western troops/infantry in general. They have snipers capable of ripping a man with 50cal at huge distances, they have good guns, well trained soldiers (our best soldiers in fact are there)... Well the works...
Using conventional weapons, may it be machine guns, tanks etc... against Western troops is pure suicide.
The enemy have to resort to guerrilla tactics and terrorism to take out a few soldiers a year (I know it's horrible to say, but I'm talking about casualties as a statistic).
Well, long story short, in my mind: Western troops kicking ass in conventional combat = normal stuff.
And the report isnt very detailed. Well, I didnt see the "nightmare" that makes it a "medal material". Honest mistake. Do you have to get mad for that?
And the simple rule with me is that if you are jerk with me, I'm a jerk with you... I saw that some people got angry. I could easily "back off" with a "I'm sorry, didnt mean to..." but I believe that it's not my fault. They chose to get angry. Their problem...
Spartan613
Active member
Actually, those who enjoy their freedoms today DO owe something to military personnel. And that's the bit you clearly don't get.
What would France be like today, if not for the blood shed by MILLIONS of Brits, Aussies, Canadians and Yanks during WW1? (And FYI, my Grandfather lost an eye, and his Regiment lost a lot of good men in that process).
So here's the scoop, ace, everyone who is free DOES owe something to the Sailors, Soldiers, Marines and Airmen who ensure that freedom. Now go do us all a favour and choke on your cheese. :biggun:
Spartan613, once again, you throw an opinion. And we can discuss it. With total honesty.
When I say "I dont owe you anything" it means that I'm a free man. I have every right to have different opinions and to be different.
To some extent, I can agree with you and say "a soldier died for my freedom. And I will enjoy it by being different." And in this situation, it's up to you to be tolerant as "your people" are fighting and sometimes even dying to protect this freedom."
It's funny to see this answer coming from you.
But the problem is that I dont agree with you on that point neither. I do think that there is some naive people somewhere who believe that they are fighting for my rights. But that doesnt make it "the truth".
I say so because I really dont believe in the economic, politic, financial system...
You volunteered to be swallowed by the industrial-military complex... I didnt ask you to do that.
When I say "I dont owe you anything" it means that I'm a free man. I have every right to have different opinions and to be different.
To some extent, I can agree with you and say "a soldier died for my freedom. And I will enjoy it by being different." And in this situation, it's up to you to be tolerant as "your people" are fighting and sometimes even dying to protect this freedom."
It's funny to see this answer coming from you.
But the problem is that I dont agree with you on that point neither. I do think that there is some naive people somewhere who believe that they are fighting for my rights. But that doesnt make it "the truth".
I say so because I really dont believe in the economic, politic, financial system...
You volunteered to be swallowed by the industrial-military complex... I didnt ask you to do that.
brinktk
Active member
Damned if we do...damned if we don't.
If maybe only one or two others felt this way about you LeMask, I can see your argument being validated...But every one of us feels that you piss on our profession. You minimize the sacrifice we make and if we point out something you don't like you bring up some arbitrary fact or OPINION that causes you to not face the reality of what we are trying to say. Why do you feel that you can disregard our EXPERIENCE so much. You admit that you are not an expert on military affairs, yet you disregard everything the EXPERTS say. Is that not the definition of ignorance? If it's not that then it's definitely arrogance because despite all we've been through and all we've trained you still feel that you know better.
We are not saying that you should bow down. We are not saying that you should not embrace the freedom that has been afforded to you. What we are saying is that you are in no position to comment with ANY authority on these matters. So don't get pissed when people don't appreciate your opinions or people don't take you seriously. You ARE NOT a peer to us. You have not earned to the right to have the mutual respect here that is given by soldiers as a matter of courtesy. WE understand what it takes to live the way we do. You have no idea. This is normal human behaviour, you cannot be accepted by a group until you prove your worth to the group. Thus far, you have not contributed to the group. You are coming into OUR world. The site is called International MILITARY forums...you are not military, you have not studied anything military, you have not done ANYTHING to try to understand the military. Instead, you point fingers and insult us with your arrogance and refusal to respect our hard earned experience. Until you can prove that you're as objective as you claim to be, you will not be taken seriously. Accept it, or be prepared to be ridiculed every time you post something.
If maybe only one or two others felt this way about you LeMask, I can see your argument being validated...But every one of us feels that you piss on our profession. You minimize the sacrifice we make and if we point out something you don't like you bring up some arbitrary fact or OPINION that causes you to not face the reality of what we are trying to say. Why do you feel that you can disregard our EXPERIENCE so much. You admit that you are not an expert on military affairs, yet you disregard everything the EXPERTS say. Is that not the definition of ignorance? If it's not that then it's definitely arrogance because despite all we've been through and all we've trained you still feel that you know better.
We are not saying that you should bow down. We are not saying that you should not embrace the freedom that has been afforded to you. What we are saying is that you are in no position to comment with ANY authority on these matters. So don't get pissed when people don't appreciate your opinions or people don't take you seriously. You ARE NOT a peer to us. You have not earned to the right to have the mutual respect here that is given by soldiers as a matter of courtesy. WE understand what it takes to live the way we do. You have no idea. This is normal human behaviour, you cannot be accepted by a group until you prove your worth to the group. Thus far, you have not contributed to the group. You are coming into OUR world. The site is called International MILITARY forums...you are not military, you have not studied anything military, you have not done ANYTHING to try to understand the military. Instead, you point fingers and insult us with your arrogance and refusal to respect our hard earned experience. Until you can prove that you're as objective as you claim to be, you will not be taken seriously. Accept it, or be prepared to be ridiculed every time you post something.
brinktk I'm sorry if you interpret my words this way. But I really dont understand how you believe that I "piss" on your profession. This is absolutely not true, and I know it because I dont feel this way at all.
I dont minimize the sacrifice you do in your difficult jobs. I havent experienced what you are doing first hand, but I know it's not easy. In fact, I'm interested in military affairs for a very simple reason, because it's a nice example of what a human being can accomplish.
And in fact, I could reverse the roles and say that you are the ones pissing on "our profession" because we are civilians.
You are in the military, you are a hero. You are civilian, you are a coward and a weakling...
I try to be tolerant as a I believe that you need to think a little like that as this "pride" is necessary... But I'm afraid that some made it into a real superiority complex.
Well, there is some truth in what you say... Sometimes I dont listen to experts. And take it as a professional deformation from me. It would be a long story to explain... I will try to be brief. Experts have a huge problem... They are blinded by their own knowledge. They are full, they dont adapt.
If you care about car business, you will see that in a big car company like Renault, they have extremely skilled car designers, extremely skilled engineers... These guys are top notch. Extremely intelligent people. You tell them "make me a car" and they make you a high tech car so advanced... With so much electronics... With such complexity... But this complex technology, as advanced as it is, doesnt answer to the need of the market. The cars are too expensive and nobody buys them...
And if you ask them to make "simple" cars... They moan and feel insulted. How can you ask a chef to cook a cheap meal for 50 hungry soldiers with large appetites? He is an artist, he doesnt want to cut potatoes...
And we have a ridiculously small part of the company in Romania (Dacia)or god knows what... We despise them as they cant do half of what we can do... But these simple people can make simple cars. The biggest sales of the whole company... We were throwing them pennies and using them to sell cars to under-developed countries... Now, they are teaching us how to rethink our whole company spirit...
Sometimes, you have to go against the advices of the experts... The world is changing...
Of course, if we start firing the experts to replace them by ignorant people, we wont achieve nothing... But we have to put expertise in a very precise context.
When you speak to me, I add context in my mind. I think "this is a professional soldier speaking." It's your perspective. Nothing forces me to adopt it, to accept it, to not doubt and discuss it...
Do you understand? I dont do that with you. I do that with everybody. Some are annoyed deeply by that... Others give your monthly paycheck for that. Crazy world huh?
And I'm sorry, but there should be no condition to mutual respect except mutual respect. It's not different in the military, it's never different.
And I'm not responsible for your misinterpretations of my words. And you guys stick together and for each others way too much. Way too much on the defensive... It's staggering. I dont want to offend you, but you look real insecure about a lot of things...
With you, one little misunderstanding, and one fool (I wont name him) will try to have you a cross... And all his buddies jump on his boat.
Here it's:
me: "I dont know, I dont feel comfortable with a shorter gun. And I heard bad stories about it."
"Oh, it's not a good enough weapon for you in your video game."
me: "What? No, I just prefer good old fashioned designs."
"oh? you are the expert. No, I'm the expert, it's very good. And you are an idiot."
me: "I never said it was a bad gun, I just dont feel it right."
"oooh, mister have feelings... I'm an expert, I told you it's very good."
Then, they talk to you like crap... And they add "I have been patient enough with you." Wonderful people... Who needs enemies with such friends...
Nah, here, you have to bow to the "experts" fast... you have to be fast and aware. It's "omg he didnt like what I said... Quick quick, beg for mercy."
I dont minimize the sacrifice you do in your difficult jobs. I havent experienced what you are doing first hand, but I know it's not easy. In fact, I'm interested in military affairs for a very simple reason, because it's a nice example of what a human being can accomplish.
And in fact, I could reverse the roles and say that you are the ones pissing on "our profession" because we are civilians.
You are in the military, you are a hero. You are civilian, you are a coward and a weakling...
I try to be tolerant as a I believe that you need to think a little like that as this "pride" is necessary... But I'm afraid that some made it into a real superiority complex.
Well, there is some truth in what you say... Sometimes I dont listen to experts. And take it as a professional deformation from me. It would be a long story to explain... I will try to be brief. Experts have a huge problem... They are blinded by their own knowledge. They are full, they dont adapt.
If you care about car business, you will see that in a big car company like Renault, they have extremely skilled car designers, extremely skilled engineers... These guys are top notch. Extremely intelligent people. You tell them "make me a car" and they make you a high tech car so advanced... With so much electronics... With such complexity... But this complex technology, as advanced as it is, doesnt answer to the need of the market. The cars are too expensive and nobody buys them...
And if you ask them to make "simple" cars... They moan and feel insulted. How can you ask a chef to cook a cheap meal for 50 hungry soldiers with large appetites? He is an artist, he doesnt want to cut potatoes...
And we have a ridiculously small part of the company in Romania (Dacia)or god knows what... We despise them as they cant do half of what we can do... But these simple people can make simple cars. The biggest sales of the whole company... We were throwing them pennies and using them to sell cars to under-developed countries... Now, they are teaching us how to rethink our whole company spirit...
Sometimes, you have to go against the advices of the experts... The world is changing...
Of course, if we start firing the experts to replace them by ignorant people, we wont achieve nothing... But we have to put expertise in a very precise context.
When you speak to me, I add context in my mind. I think "this is a professional soldier speaking." It's your perspective. Nothing forces me to adopt it, to accept it, to not doubt and discuss it...
Do you understand? I dont do that with you. I do that with everybody. Some are annoyed deeply by that... Others give your monthly paycheck for that. Crazy world huh?
And I'm sorry, but there should be no condition to mutual respect except mutual respect. It's not different in the military, it's never different.
And I'm not responsible for your misinterpretations of my words. And you guys stick together and for each others way too much. Way too much on the defensive... It's staggering. I dont want to offend you, but you look real insecure about a lot of things...
With you, one little misunderstanding, and one fool (I wont name him) will try to have you a cross... And all his buddies jump on his boat.
Here it's:
me: "I dont know, I dont feel comfortable with a shorter gun. And I heard bad stories about it."
"Oh, it's not a good enough weapon for you in your video game."
me: "What? No, I just prefer good old fashioned designs."
"oh? you are the expert. No, I'm the expert, it's very good. And you are an idiot."
me: "I never said it was a bad gun, I just dont feel it right."
"oooh, mister have feelings... I'm an expert, I told you it's very good."
Then, they talk to you like crap... And they add "I have been patient enough with you." Wonderful people... Who needs enemies with such friends...
Nah, here, you have to bow to the "experts" fast... you have to be fast and aware. It's "omg he didnt like what I said... Quick quick, beg for mercy."
GHR
Active member
Exactly! because we are brothers!
And I do not want to explain it to you. You would never understand a damn thing about it.
That's where you are wrong... I understand this.
I was in a sport team when I was younger and I have brothers and a few very good friends who proved their loyalty in hard times...
But a real friend doesnt give you unconditional support. A real friend should kick your ass when you are doing something wrong...
There is a huge difference between being "buddies" and being "friends".
And by the way, if someone in your unit breaks the law, you are supposed to stop him/arrest him. This kind of attitude pushes people to cover up for their "buddies". And this is where discipline goes by the window...
And what's with the "I dont want to explain it to you."? As a civilian I cant understand fidelity?
I was in a sport team when I was younger and I have brothers and a few very good friends who proved their loyalty in hard times...
But a real friend doesnt give you unconditional support. A real friend should kick your ass when you are doing something wrong...
There is a huge difference between being "buddies" and being "friends".
And by the way, if someone in your unit breaks the law, you are supposed to stop him/arrest him. This kind of attitude pushes people to cover up for their "buddies". And this is where discipline goes by the window...
And what's with the "I dont want to explain it to you."? As a civilian I cant understand fidelity?
You depend on the people around you since the day you are born. It's the human condition, we are made this way. You need others to live and survive.
You dont need an enemy shooting at you to need allies. You dont need bullets and enemy fire to create a life and death situation. Just think of the people who commit suicide when they feel abandoned and alone.
And you need courage and brave people in normal life, not just on the battlefield.
It may be very intense in the situation you described, but to say that it's a thing I cannot understand...
You dont need an enemy shooting at you to need allies. You dont need bullets and enemy fire to create a life and death situation. Just think of the people who commit suicide when they feel abandoned and alone.
And you need courage and brave people in normal life, not just on the battlefield.
It may be very intense in the situation you described, but to say that it's a thing I cannot understand...
Yes, let us equate being halfway around the world in the middle of nowhere surrounded by people who want to kill you to your daily trials and tribulations. Sometimes I run out of sugar for my coffee and have a friend go pick it up for me if they are swinging by. And, I guess that is a friend coming to my aid in a time of need. However, I much like everyone else in this MILITARY forum can see the difference between relying on a friend here in a place where strangers would come to your aid if you needed it and over there where a stranger will just shoot your ass. And please do not continue on some random tirade about sugar and coffee as it was just an example. I know this will be hard for you "educated" brain to do but I would appreciate it none the less. Ignorance is bliss, you must be a pig in **** then.
You know, I agree with you... there is a law they call "non assistance to people in harms way" over here... They jail your ass if you dont assist people in danger.
I wonder how they thought about such a law... As only military personnel display courage, or understand solidarity, brotherhood... etc... beyond me... We need geniuses like you to fix these stupid laws...
I wonder how they thought about such a law... As only military personnel display courage, or understand solidarity, brotherhood... etc... beyond me... We need geniuses like you to fix these stupid laws...
Haha, nothing needs to be fixed, you are now legally obligated to help people around you like us. Hell, we even give aid to people who get shot because they were trying to kill us.
But anyway, like so many threads I read on here you have once again drawn the conversation away from the purpose of this thread. It was posted to honor the courage of one of our own. If you have nothing to say about the amazing soldier we are honoring here go hijack another thread.
But anyway, like so many threads I read on here you have once again drawn the conversation away from the purpose of this thread. It was posted to honor the courage of one of our own. If you have nothing to say about the amazing soldier we are honoring here go hijack another thread.
brinktk
Active member
Let's refocus here. This thread was created to pay respects to a fellow soldiers valor in combat. The fact of the matter is that none of us were there and can only speculate on what went down. His peers and superiors saw it fit that this soldier merited Australia's highest award for valor. Those that conducted the investigation, which would have been extensive, also felt that he deserved the award. Plain and simple, he deserves everyones respect regardless of our personal views on the subject.
I'll raise a toast to this soldier and his brothers in the ADF. You guys are "good people".:bravo::salute::cheers:
I'll raise a toast to this soldier and his brothers in the ADF. You guys are "good people".:bravo::salute::cheers:
tomtom22
Chief Engineer
And now anyone else who wants to say anything had better stick to the subject, or Know the wrath of this moderater will be felt.
NO FURTHER WARNINGS WILL BE GIVEN!
Spartan613
Active member
Okay. Bit by bit, we're peelng back "the mask" and finding what we're really dealing with. You're a Left wing socialist with anarchist tendencies. By definition (and I know from experience) you can't be reasoned with, as Leftards are incapable of rational and logical thought process. You go on feelings, not facts. Other than coming here to stir up ****, what's your purpose? You clearly aren't interested in what we have to say, so why even ask. Wouldn't you be happier discussing the benefits of bicycles over electric cars on a global warming forum?
Spartan613
Active member
I'll drink to that.:drink: