OCTOBER 1973 WAR (YUM KIPPUR)- AN EGYPTIAN VICTORY

johnmacadam said:
I don't think the problem is the money, its the professionalism. I'm always impressed by the numbers of aircraft, tanks and naval assets that Israel has given its small size both in population terms and economy, even allowing for US aid. The UK spends 50 billion dollars each year on defence and it can't even afford a completely independent nuclear deterrent, the US has the ability to prevent the UK from firing the trident system, which was bought from the US, but I digress.

When the US wargamed the iraq war, the opfor general "sunk" US carriers with speedboats, they also managed to communicate with units despite the us interfering with communications in the game. However the iraqi generals never tried any alternative or unorthodox strategies.

As someone mentioned earlier arab countries have large armies for power, I would define that as good for internal repression, for hoovering up lots of ill educated men and looking good for other third world countries. The exception is Saudi Arabia, who are scared of having a large army in case it overthrew the regime, but they do have a large airforce. how good it is, I couldn't say.

I never get the impression that any of the arab countries are serious about their militaries. Paper tigers, I would describe them.

As for this topic, I'm not the most knowledgeable person about the 73 war, but after the surrounding of 2 arab armies, didn't the americans have to stop the israelies from destroying them both in the sinai, and didn't they also have to stop them from effecting speeding across the sinai and into cairo (literally), because the russians were threatening to get involved.[/QUi


i feal sorrow for who told you all of these lies , for ur knowldge*

the israelie force across sinai after *our victory was just a thin line and it was already surronded by 3rd army ...... and also fail to enter suiz or ismailiya city ...... so who told u that they won is dreaming......... we won the war man and we clear them outside our country and soon outside palestine .
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Hagez... tell me one thing please, did you read that in Egyptian newspapers?

They are all BS, just a pile of lies you know?

I cant believe you say that, even the most naive egyptian knows that the Egyptian newspapers cant tell some truths.
 
LeMask said:
Hagez... tell me one thing please, did you read that in Egyptian newspapers?

They are all BS, just a pile of lies you know?

I cant believe you say that, even the most naive egyptian knows that the Egyptian newspapers cant tell some truths.
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u cant depend on newspapers for anything man :) , specialy the governmental*

but i read the history from books , hear the truth from soldier that they fought their , Our history man *is the only truth that u can beleive *:)


for ur knowldge man am anti zionist *not anti jeduism , and their are a billion of km between both of them ...... jeduism is a religion we respect more than any one..... and i will be proud to have a jewish friend but our target to clear zionist from world cuz they brought death , damage & all of rabish every where .

example i respect *Naturi Carta tooo much*

again to till i'll be proud to have a jewish friend but zionist *is our enemy*
 
Listen man, I understand your character, I met many Arab people and many Muslims. It's nice to see the difference between a jewish person and a Zionist.

But you should push your understanding a little further. There is Zionists who are nice people too. I dont like some zionist right wingers myself... But there is some Israel supporters who can care about the Palestinians.

But the debate about the legitimacy of Israel is not useful, because Israel is here. You have to understand that people were born in Israel. It's their lands now. They have their whole lives there.

It would be unfair to strip them from their rights because their parents and grand parents did some unfair things...

So this debate about Zionism is sterile.

And it's nice to look out for different sources... but you cant trust soldiers to give you the whole picture about a war. Dont trust newspapers, even in democratic countries they are BS...
And in books, there is many versions about the same thing... Once again, you have to check the content and the agenda of the people writing these books.
 
LeMask said:
Listen man, I understand your character, I met many Arab people and many Muslims. It's nice to see the difference between a jewish person and a Zionist.

But you should push your understanding a little further. There is Zionists who are nice people too. I dont like some zionist right wingers myself... But there is some Israel supporters who can care about the Palestinians.

But the debate about the legitimacy of Israel is not useful, because Israel is here. You have to understand that people were born in Israel. It's their lands now. They have their whole lives there.

It would be unfair to strip them from their rights because their parents and grand parents did some unfair things...

So this debate about Zionism is sterile.

And it's nice to look out for different sources... but you cant trust soldiers to give you the whole picture about a war. Dont trust newspapers, even in democratic countries they are BS...
And in books, there is many versions about the same thing... Once again, you have to check the content and the agenda of the people writing these books.
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it wont be their land today or tommorow their parents came and killed boor pplz without any mercey ..... why shall i accept them as my neighbour and i know one truth ..itsnt their land now or further


and why to look at past day by day they have war with other they conquer our land also but we kicked them out of t and * WON *the war against them. and beleive me soon or later they will be out of palestine ..... and let the pure jewedi live with us as before eat from the same land and drink from the same water ....
 
LeMask said:
Well, if you want to talk about legitimacy... You have to set the rules and the terms of this legitimacy.

You can prove nothing unless you agree first on these terms. Dont play a game without setting the rules. If you dont want to, just start bashing each others like primitive men. And let the man with the bigger stick win.

But if you want to live like civilized men, first, talk to each others, and agree on some definitions, once you find a common ground, then you can state historical facts...

And I think it's not pertinent to say "Arabs have 30 nations, and we have only a few... so we can do what we want." That's not an argument.

Try to use that in something else. We dont see terrorists saying "you have 1000 tanks and we just have rocks and cheap rockets... Give us tanks." Well, we see some people saying that, but we cant understand that...

Now, we have to put racism aside, we all have equal rights, whatever the culture, the skin color, the religion... etc... Every human being have rights.

Some jews were born in the land we call Israel today, they have the right to live there. And nobody can tell us otherwhise.
And it's the same for the Arabs who were born there. It's their land too. They have the right to live in the land of their ancestors... etc... This is how it works...

Now, we have a situation where many people have the right to live in the same place... The problem isnt who have or dont have legitimacy, this is obvious.

The problem is in the cohabitation... They refuse each others...

What we need is an authority, capable of forcing these entities to live with each others... even by Kicking their asses if they dont keep it civil.

But who will do this job? This is the problem, nobody wants to be neutral...

We can solve the conflict very easily... The solution is obvious. But we dont have true people to do that. We are so corrupt, so blinded that we cant do what's obvious...
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I agree with you in so many points here but .. just one thing i was wondering about it... (that thing is : israel has ppl who been born at this land .. and so as the arabs (Palestine)... i guess that arabs was own these lands before israel invade them so they have the right to get it back .... ... about the ppl who been born in israel we already said that before that israel could get back to borders before 1967 then .. the israel will leave in peace and so we are and we will make a natural relations with israel ... so will be no any hate or refusing .... but israel didn,t want to lose any land even if they did get it by illegal way .....i hope that my opinon dose not hurt any one ... and i am sry for my poor english
 
Israeli propaganda? Hmm.. If Egypt had won the 1973 war, why then it recieved Sinai only in 1982? Also, how come that Egypt had won, but at the same time IDF units were some 40 miles away from Cairo? That's emm one strange victory.
 
Shmack said:
Israeli propaganda? Hmm.. If Egypt had won the 1973 war, why then it recieved Sinai only in 1982? Also, how come that Egypt had won, but at the same time IDF units were some 40 miles away from Cairo? That's emm one strange victory.
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about the 1982 ..... that,s happened as built on agreement of peace in geniv so both countrys had to confirm the agreement conditions .. so that,s what happened about falling back to israel .... - but the point that said that israel were some 40 miles away from Cairo ... hadn,t any prove about it - and for me it,s not tru at all i just saw it here in the fourm but every source talking about the war facts didn,t mention any of this ...
 
Shmack said:
Israeli propaganda? Hmm.. If Egypt had won the 1973 war, why then it recieved Sinai only in 1982? Also, how come that Egypt had won, but at the same time IDF units were some 40 miles away from Cairo? That's emm one strange victory.
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Both sides claim victory because both sides had different criteria for what they called victory. The Yum Kippur War was the first time the Egyptian Military was still in the fight at the end of the conflict! While a fair portion of the Egyptian Army was on the Israeli side of the canal and the Israeli Army was on the Egyptian side of the canal... Egypt finished the conflict with their heads held high. The Egyptian AF was still fighting for control of the air on the canal with the cease fire took place.
The other way the Egyptian AF looks at the conflict is that, they defeated the Israeli AF and it was only the re-supply of aircraft from the USA that allowed the Israeli AF to continue to fight. Without America's re-supply of F-4s from Germany and America and A-4s from America, the IAF was defeated. The new American aircraft also came with new jamming equipment the prior IAF fighters did not have.
America pressured Israel to stop fighting in place and pursue an effort for peace. Daily flights of SR-71's provided photo evidence as to whether either army had moved. The Israeli Army could have possibly kept the Egyptian trapped but, America and the USSR wanted an end to the conflict. America had gone to "DEFCON 3" as a warning to the USSR not to send their paratroopers to fight on behalf of the Egyptian Army. DEFCON 3 was the highest alert status the US Military has been at since the Cuban Missile Crisis! The longer the conflict went on the greater the chance of nuclear war!!
 
Yes, it's very relative...

Let me tell you about a glorious fight I was in when I was 8.

There was a big guy in our school, and he kicked our asses for years... But one day, I got my ass kicked, but I managed to rip his shirt...
What a glorious victory...

I met him some years after that, and I'm 10cm taller than him... And I still have most of my hair and I have a girlfriend... What a huge victory.

Just kidding...

Listen, our objective is not to say who won the fight or not... Wars are not games. We are not kids playing who's go the biggest ding dong...

We fight in wars to defend our rights. The sad part in the story, is that it's not the good guys who always win. Wars prove nothing more than who is best in warfare in a particular context...

The Egyptian fought well, but the Israeli won the battle. I think that we cant discuss that.

if the battle was different, they could have lost... If the Syrian did better... If there was a solar eruption... Whatever...

What's important, is what we gained from this war. And as I see that there is no Egyptians hugging with Israelis... I say that this war was a big defeat for mankind.

Now, I dont care about your flags, Egyptians or Israelis... Your national pride... Your warrior skills...

I dont have to say:
Israel won the war. Then Israel is superior to Egypt and Israelis are superior to Egyptians...

What? Are we looking for superior men? What are we? Nazis?

It's all politics. Our objective is to live together on this earth without throwing bombs at each others like idiots...

Now let national pride aside and speak about this conflict in an intelligent way.

I think that as long as we have the need to name a victorious side in every conflict... We will keep thinking that there is something to win in war.

And the real people who win something in war is the guys who will sell you weapons... Who will gain power from the events... etc...

Good people always lose in war.
 
Yep, i'm inclined to agree with LeMask. Arguing about who the winner is and who the looser is, especially 40 years after the action is kind of kindergarten. You'd think that this kind of knowledge will somehow improve Egyptian might.
 
Basically I agree with LeMask but.... the perception of 'winning', is the only thing that allowed the Egyptian to sign a peace accord with Israel. (Upon that point, even the Israeli military commanders agree.) That perception allowed a national pride to build. Without that peace accord, the situation with Egypt and Israel would be the same as it is with Syria!
 
Political manipulation... Dont forget that these things happened before a negociation with the Israelis. they didnt force the Israelis to sign these peace accords. They agreed on something. the Israelis pulled something from these negotiations too.

The real people who lost something in the story would be the people of both countries. They lost men, money and they lived through a war. Just to see their leaders shake hands after a battle to put an end to the situation.

Then the Egyptians signed peace accords to save face... So they can stay in power. And the Israeli government kept the stability of a corrupt regime right next to him.

Dont forget that corruption strike both ways... It weakens your enemies, but corruption might cause your downfall by other means...
 
In reviewing the different posts that were pasted by the Israeli victory believers of this war a general feature may be traced. Thier posts lack the basic knowledge regarding this war goals, events, battles & even the respective confronting forces positions. These posts ignored linking thier stories to any refrence & rushed to general conclusions. The included
superiority claims were baseless to the extent that would contradict with the worst israeli biased refernces.
Here I paste a fairly new israeili refernce which states the reasons of considering this war an Egyptian Victory. This report is the work outcome of IDF history department which chalenges the porpaganda & seeks facts.

From
the IDF's point of view, the History Department concludes, the war
ended in a narrow victory, with "only the partial achievement of the
war's goals" as they had been defined; from the point of view of the
State of Israel, the failure lay in the fact that the war was not
prevented and in losing it: the Arab states succeeded in forcing the
IDF's withdrawal in the political settlements that came in the wake of the war and to achieve more than they would have had they not gone to war.
According to the authoritative data, the Egyptians held a bridgehead
with a total area of some 1,400 square kilometers in the opening stage
of the war. Israel was prepared, in terms of ammunition and spare
parts, for 10 days of warfare (for 90 days in terms of fuel and food),
but after 18 days of fighting the Egyptians had lost only one-seventh of the territory they had captured and still held about 1,200 square kilometers; the Israeli wedge inside Egypt was about 1,600 square​
kilometers.
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http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/the-yom-kippur-war-the-idf-version-1.34160
 
Shmack said:
Yep, i'm inclined to agree with LeMask. Arguing about who the winner is and who the looser is, especially 40 years after the action is kind of kindergarten..
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I disagree. This was an important war and we should analyze it, with the analysis of it's outcome included. And, in such analysis, it is imperative to state which side won and which not. There is always a victorious side and there is always a defeated side.However, neither victory or defeat have to be "total", and it seems that is what many of you forgot about.
I can also see that judgment of some of you may be clouded by personal feelings, which is the worst thing in discussions like that.
 
Only the criminals who dont care about the people dying in battle can win a war...

Honest and good people always lose in wars. Life, time, ressources, diplomatic relations etc...

Israel didnt win anything, Israel lost soldiers and some expensive hardware... Soldiers got their hands dirty...
And it's the same for Egypt...

Who won anything in the story? the guys who are selling weapons...

This is not a soccer game mate where there is a winner...

Who won WWII? the Allies? False!!

it's like two people shooting at each others, one dies and the other losing a leg... Who won the confrontation? Do you think that losing a leg is winning?
 
If you are talking about me, I'm definetely not a pacifist...

I just hate to see good people fighting each others because of BS reasons... Nationalism, religion etc...

We should use this force to make the lives of some criminals miserable... But as we follow some dumb corrupt leaders, we send young men to kill each others for lies and stupid reasons...
 
Human nature dictates that in any power vacuum people will always look for a leader figure, like children with parents, hate listening to their parents, but let their social friends influence their decisions much in the same way their parents do.

Let it be criminals, or warlords, or even politicians, people always tend to look for a Shepard somewhere, even in vacuums.
 
Like a German general said during Operation Barbarossa: The Soviets indeed have lost a battle, but they have won the war. The Israelis may have won the war, but the Egyptians have won the land. Hehe
 
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