"No One Left Behind"

And I know soldiers from WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan that fought so desperately to recover their dead or wounded that it literally changed the entire course of the battle. It works both ways.

It's not about what I want or what my men want. It's to preserve the integrity of the unit. It's about adhering to a set of principles to ensure you bring all your men home. If my men know this, I honestly believe they will fight harder for each other. I don't care the examples you post, I have never left ANY of my dead or wounded behind and I never will. PERIOD. If one of my subordinate leaders came up to me after a battle and told me they left some of their people behind...I would likely fire them on the spot and possibly court martial them according to the circumstances. I'm not in the business of leaving my soldiers on the battlefield simply because they're an inconvenience.
 
Recovering your dead.....I think this largely depends on the action you are fighting and were you are. As airborne every thing you need our want is on your back you have little or no vehicles to carry bodies on. Having spent a fair amount of time in the desert it is not a place that you can leave your dead unburied for long, so your main aim to to win then you can look after your dead, if you lose it does not make much difference as you are more than likely to have joined them. Still I would not want any one to have died just to get my body as in a few years you are nothing but a name on a wall.
 
While certainly a noble stance Brinktk, it may prove as difficult as "Peace for our time" in practice.
If a LRRP with no means of mechanical transportation experience casualties it will be a nearly hopeless task to bring all the boys back home, and trying will most likely be fatal to the surviving members of the patrol.

It's definately not what a regular army is trained for, but to completely disregard the possibility of something like that could prove dangerous in a worst case scenario.
And as we all know, old Murphy never sleeps, and if things can go wrong, they will go wrong, at the worst possible moment, and especially so in the armed forces.
 
In the case LRRP, it proves slightly more difficult. I know of a few occasions where SF units have burnt the body of a fallen comrade. Anything to prevent the body falling into hands of those that'll use it for propaganda purposes.

However, these days a medevac is just a radio call away. You'll have a chopper with you within 45 mins, often less.

Also, modern troops are very well trained in battlefield first aid and often will have a medic attached to the patrol. I was trained to a high standard and have inserted IV lines, stemmed bleeding, carried out CPR and all manner of first aid.

Despite what is being said, I can't recall any British soldiers being left behind in Iraq or Afghanistan. I served 22 years and can't recall any instances of it.
 
A worst case scenerio in my mind is getting overrun, and if that's the case, it won't matter anyways.

I'm not saying there is never a scenerio where you just have to cut your losses. I'm not stupid. I'm all too familiar with the realities of combat. But instances these days where leaving the dead or wounded is the only option are extremely rare.
 
Capt Frogman said:
In the case LRRP, it proves slightly more difficult. I know of a few occasions where SF units have burnt the body of a fallen comrade. Anything to prevent the body falling into hands of those that'll use it for propaganda purposes.

However, these days a medevac is just a radio call away. You'll have a chopper with you within 45 mins, often less.

Also, modern troops are very well trained in battlefield first aid and often will have a medic attached to the patrol. I was trained to a high standard and have inserted IV lines, stemmed bleeding, carried out CPR and all manner of first aid.

Despite what is being said, I can't recall any British soldiers being left behind in Iraq or Afghanistan. I served 22 years and can't recall any instances of it.
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Exactly. If one survives the golden hour then they will survive 99% of the time. Every combat arms soldier in our Army is trained as a combat lifesaver, trained in immediate lifesaving aid that will keep a soldier alive long enough to get them to the next level of care. Helicopters are never more than 30 minutes away. Most soldiers killed today are so grievously wounded that if they were wounded ON the operating table they would likely still have died. If there is a chance of survival, then almost every time they are saved.

Not to mention, the level of firepower available to anyone who has a radio if they happen to find themselves in a situation where they may have to make the decision to leave dead or wounded essentially ensures that we will always be able to get our boys home.
 
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brinktk said:
Exactly. If one survives the golden hour then they will survive 99% of the time. Every combat arms soldier in our Army is trained as a combat lifesaver, trained in immediate lifesaving aid that will keep a soldier alive long enough to get them to the next level of care. Helicopters are never more than 30 minutes away. Most soldiers killed today are so grievously wounded that if the were wounded ON the operating table they would likely still have died. If there is a chance of survival, then almost every time they are saved.

Not to mention, the level of firepower available to anyone who has a radio if they happen to find themselves in a situation where they may have to make the decision to leave dead or wounded essentially ensures that we will always be able to get our boys home.
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Yes, "the golden hour" is key although it's now the “platinum 10 minutes”, rather than the “golden hour” that used to be talked about.

To reduce the number of fatalities during these critical first few minutes, emergency medicine can now be provided deep inside enemy territory. All soldiers on operation have basic first aid training. At least one in four soldiers is an military team medic. They have advanced first aid training and carry additional medical equipment including products to stem excessive bleeding.

If the injury is serious, a Medical Emergency Response Team (MERT) is sent urgently. This is a Chinook carrying highly specialist medical personnel, consisting of a consultant, an emergency nurse and two paramedics. In Afghanistan, the MERT is equipped to deliver life-saving care onboard the helicopter on the way to the field hospital.

Based on two years of figures, the average time between injury on the battlefield and arrival in a hospital bed is under 50 minutes.
 
Agreed the world has moved on since I was in the army nearly 60 years ago and helicopters have made great difference for the wounded. Also communicationbs have also changed so there is a lot more support and back than there once was.
 
LeEnfield said:
Agreed the world has moved on since I was in the army nearly 60 years ago and helicopters have made great difference for the wounded. Also communicationbs have also changed so there is a lot more support and back than there once was.
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Yes, very much so.

I can't imagine how things were back when you served. Must have been difficult when comrades fell and had to be left.
 
Well hang on a minute- there are plenty of armies and situations where getting left behind is still reality. Light infantry operating in the bush is very much unchanged and just as isolated, and in an ambush its back to the last RV or die. Taking one or two wounded would be all a section or det could possibly manage.
Only a nation supremely more powerful then the one its facing can expect to hang onto even its dead which is undeniably a sentimental luxury.
 
headwards said:
Well hang on a minute- there are plenty of armies and situations where getting left behind is still reality. Light infantry operating in the bush is very much unchanged and just as isolated, and in an ambush its back to the last RV or die. Taking one or two wounded would be all a section or det could possibly manage.
Only a nation supremely more powerful then the one its facing can expect to hang onto even its dead which is undeniably a sentimental luxury.
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"sentimental luxury"

WTF is that supposed to mean?

I suppose we've been spoiled these last 11 years then? I can't help but think you're taking a shot at us from an "overmatch" standpoint even though overmatch is virtually meaningless in COIN. I'm curious how many situations you've been in where you're left to this decision?

Small unit tactics are small unit tactics whether it's from the US or Zimbabwe. Light infantry isn't that different from your army to mine. I'm pretty sure the US soldiers that are in the middle of the Konar valley are dealing with the same deprivations that you would if you were there. The suck is the suck. We still get our dead out. SSG Guinta of the 173rd charged into the taliban in the middle of a well planned ambush on his column to get their wounded from being taken by the enemy. They were in the middle of the Korengal valley which is about as isolated as you can get. His selfless act broke the back of the enemy ambush. From Chosin to Ia Drang, to Hill 881S, to Fallujah WE BRING OUR DEAD OUT.
 
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headwards said:
Well hang on a minute- there are plenty of armies and situations where getting left behind is still reality. Light infantry operating in the bush is very much unchanged and just as isolated, and in an ambush its back to the last RV or die. Taking one or two wounded would be all a section or det could possibly manage.
Only a nation supremely more powerful then the one its facing can expect to hang onto even its dead which is undeniably a sentimental luxury.
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I beg to differ based on my 22 years service in various conflicts across the world.

A "sentimental luxury"? You've clearly never lost a comrade?
 
Capt Frogman said:
A "sentimental luxury"? You've clearly never lost a comrade?
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Clearly he hasn't.

He's a pup, hopefully he never has to find out.

The most terrifying experience I EVER encountered in combat was watching an attached Marine sniper team from hundreds of meters away get overrun. We were doing hunter killer missions within the city and were saturating a real bad area with sniper teams, observers, and DM's. We tried frantically to get a QRF, CCA, CAS,...anything to them before they succumbed to the enemy fire. We were too late. Knowing that those guys were dieing and may end up on some video made us all extremely angry. We went into the area with extreme prejiduce to recover their bodies. We got them back...but not before they were mutilated by the enemy. If he understood the gut wrenching feeling that comes with the idea that YOUR brothers are at the whim of the enemy...he might change his tone.
 
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brinktk said:
Clearly he hasn't.

He's a pup, hopefully he never has to find out.

The most terrifying experience I EVER encountered in combat was watching an attached Marine sniper team from hundreds of meters away get overrun. We were doing hunter killer missions within the city and were saturating a real bad area with sniper teams, observers, and DM's. We tried frantically to get a QRF, CCA, CAS,...anything to them before they succumbed to the enemy fire. We were too late. Knowing that those guys were dieing and may end up on some video made us all extremely angry. We went into the area with extreme prejiduce to recover their bodies. We got them back...but not before they were mutilated by the enemy. If he understood the gut wrenching feeling that comes with the idea that YOUR brothers are at the whim of the enemy...you might change your tone.
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I am so sorry to hear this; this must be a haunting experience for you and your soldiers. This might be a bit off topic; you, Capt. Frogman, and all other war veterans here. Write down your experience, not for yourself, do it for the men who never returned home, some day in the future. People will listen to you as we are listening to the veterans of WWII. You have daughter, Brinktk. She might want to hear this when she is older.

I might be wrong, I don't know. I have never been in combat
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
I am so sorry to hear this; this must be a haunting experience for you and your soldiers. This might be a bit off topic; you, Capt. Frogman, and all other war veterans here. Write down your experience, not for yourself, do it for the men who never returned home, some day in the future. People will listen to you as we are listening to the veterans of WWII. You have daughter, Brinktk. She might want to hear this when she is older.

I might be wrong, I don't know. I have never been in combat
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I've contemplated writing a memoir...but I'd prefer to be done with my service before I do. I do have a unique distinction of having served in combat as a lower enlisted, NCO, and junior officer all within the same war...of course, I never really thought many people would really give a **** about what I did in the war anyways.
 
brinktk said:
I've contemplated writing a memoir...but I'd prefer to be done with my service before I do. I do have a unique distinction of having served in combat as a lower enlisted, NCO, and junior officer all within the same war...of course, I never really thought many people would really give a **** about what I did in the war anyways.
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I urge you to do it now, when you are "closer" to it. You can use the same method as Eugene Sledge, he wrote "To Peleliu and Okinawa with the Old Breed" He wrote down footnotes and later these footnotes turned into a book.
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
I am so sorry to hear this; this must be a haunting experience for you and your soldiers. This might be a bit off topic; you, Capt. Frogman, and all other war veterans here. Write down your experience, not for yourself, do it for the men who never returned home, some day in the future. People will listen to you as we are listening to the veterans of WWII. You have daughter, Brinktk. She might want to hear this when she is older.

I might be wrong, I don't know. I have never been in combat
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I wrote to the next of kin of my fallen comrades. It wasn't easy but I felt it was my duty as troop commander.

I guess it should be documented but I prefer not to dwell on the past, especially where there was nothing I could of done to prevent the deaths.
 
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!
 
To the both of you - you know its a luxury which only the victors get, did you by any chance get your enemies dead back to their families?
Theres plenty of our dead still on foreign shores and the same goes for the both of you when we have lost. It hasn't always been an everytime option, even for the two most powerful nations of the last century.

Being supremely more powerful clearly matters because if they had driven you off or cut your logistics you wouldnt have been able to advance to get the bodies would you?
The concept of bringing every 'body' back is something I would say most armies regard as a case by case basis. Corpses arent worth lives.

In saying that this thread is about 'no man left behind' which clearly was intended to mean 'no alive man left behind' which I totally agree is something which I am sure everyone on that side appreciates.

Look before this turns into a **** slinging match which I can see you leaning towards Brinktt how about we have a civil conversation? Is it anywhere in the Geneva convention that an enemies dead must be returned to them?
Capt Frogman, even in the first gulf war weren't British special forces soldiers left to the enemy as they couldn't be carried? I read the book a few years ago but I am sure that much is true.
 
I3BrigPvSk said:
I urge you to do it now, when you are "closer" to it. You can use the same method as Eugene Sledge, he wrote "To Peleliu and Okinawa with the Old Breed" He wrote down footnotes and later these footnotes turned into a book.
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I agree it is better to write or prepare it now while it is fresh in your mind even if you don't publish it until after you have left the service.
 
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