New USATODAY report shows NSA had collected Tens of Millions of Phone Calls
Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
I don't know how a person could be MORE wrong than you are.phoenix80 said:
Terrorists are 'real' enemies ... but ... President GW Bush is a GREATER enemy than any terrorists that wants to plant a bomb. The ONLY thing the terrorists can do is to kill a few Americans ... GW is in very real sense destroying the Constitution in little steps (or) stages. First he signs hundreds of signing statements saying the HE doesn't have to obey 'certain' portion of the laws that he signed into law but that every one else does ... and then, he knowingly authorizes illegal warrant-less wiretaps that will record American citizens phone conversations that originate overseas, thus violating our civil rights and our right to privacy.
By Constitution and by law, the President swore to uphold the Constitution and to defend the law ... he is failing miserably at both jobs.
By participating in an illegal criminal activity, not ONLY is he in violation of the law he swore to uphold ... he is in direct violation of the Constitution he swore to defend.
GW has done more to destroy the constitution and placed more of a stain on the law than ANY President in history (and this includes Slick Willy).
THIS IS NOT JUST MY OPINION ... THE NATIONS LAWYERS ARE IN TOTAL AGREEMENT. The national Lawyers Bar Association voted overwhelmingly that GW has committed criminal acts by not obtaining a warrant for wiretaps.
mmarsh
Active member
Originally Posted by phoenix80
LoL
I just wanted to clarify things for a french based American with little info on who his real enemy is... Terrorists or Pres. Bush
Gee I wonder who he could be talkin about? Its always greatly entertaining to be getting history lessons about your country from people that don't actually live there.
We have faced enemies far more dangerous than al-Qaeda, from the British Army, to the Confederate Army, to the Third Reich, to the Soviet Union. If you really think a bunch of religous fanatics whose numbers are fewer than a square city block in NYC could really destroy the United States of America than you have a VERY low opinion of our resolve.
Chief Bones is right, GW Bush is a far greater threat. While al-Qaeda has to contend itself attacks that do damage smaller than the size of a mosquito bite (even Hurricaine Katrina did more long term damage) Bush has done vast damage at the very fabric of our country. I could write a very long list of the things Bush has done (Chief Bones mentioned a few), but I'll summerize it by saying that Bush is attempting to rewrite our most sacred U.S Constitution in order to give the Executive branch a blank check that is accountable to absolutely nobody. Not Congress, not the law, and espically not the US Constitution.
That is direct opposition to our system of 'checks and balances' and is the hallmark of a dictator. Look at Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Kim il Sung, they all used a foreign threat (i.e Jews, Communists, Facists, Capitalists, Imperialists, whatever) to justify all their ends. Bush's dire enemy are terrorists, doesnt that sound familiar? Its dejavu.
And the crying shame of it is, like in the Third Reich or the USSR some of you people actually applaud as your liberty is chipped away from you and by the time you realize it, it will be too late.
Of course this is just my opinion...
LoL
I just wanted to clarify things for a french based American with little info on who his real enemy is... Terrorists or Pres. Bush
Gee I wonder who he could be talkin about? Its always greatly entertaining to be getting history lessons about your country from people that don't actually live there.
We have faced enemies far more dangerous than al-Qaeda, from the British Army, to the Confederate Army, to the Third Reich, to the Soviet Union. If you really think a bunch of religous fanatics whose numbers are fewer than a square city block in NYC could really destroy the United States of America than you have a VERY low opinion of our resolve.
Chief Bones is right, GW Bush is a far greater threat. While al-Qaeda has to contend itself attacks that do damage smaller than the size of a mosquito bite (even Hurricaine Katrina did more long term damage) Bush has done vast damage at the very fabric of our country. I could write a very long list of the things Bush has done (Chief Bones mentioned a few), but I'll summerize it by saying that Bush is attempting to rewrite our most sacred U.S Constitution in order to give the Executive branch a blank check that is accountable to absolutely nobody. Not Congress, not the law, and espically not the US Constitution.
That is direct opposition to our system of 'checks and balances' and is the hallmark of a dictator. Look at Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Kim il Sung, they all used a foreign threat (i.e Jews, Communists, Facists, Capitalists, Imperialists, whatever) to justify all their ends. Bush's dire enemy are terrorists, doesnt that sound familiar? Its dejavu.
And the crying shame of it is, like in the Third Reich or the USSR some of you people actually applaud as your liberty is chipped away from you and by the time you realize it, it will be too late.
Of course this is just my opinion...
Rob Henderson
Banned
It IS unconstitutional. However, that does not mean that it does not make sense. Work with me here, if you were a terrorist, wouldnt you be banking on them to make a judgement like this so you could use the phone without worrying?
mmarsh
Active member
Henderson
I say 2 things about that
1. The terrorists learned a long time ago not to use phones because they knew about our wiretapping abilities. The only rare times they will use a phone is a cast off phone (use once then discard, which is impossible to tap) or a satalite phone which are extremely difficult to bug and they are quickly discarded as well. In either case bugging the phone is useless.
2. Once again I'll repeat, nobody is saying the Government cannot bug a phone. What we are saying is that the Government cannot bug a phone WITHOUT A WARRENT. And as Bones said, the government can get a warrent for just about anything within a few minutes thanks to FISA.
This is why I dont think this has anything to do with the war on terror, it doesnt make any sense at all. I suspect it has more to do with keeping tabs on John Q Citizen, and it wouldnt be the first time in US history the government has wiretapped ordinary Americans. See Richard Nixon, or J Edgar Hoover.
I say 2 things about that
1. The terrorists learned a long time ago not to use phones because they knew about our wiretapping abilities. The only rare times they will use a phone is a cast off phone (use once then discard, which is impossible to tap) or a satalite phone which are extremely difficult to bug and they are quickly discarded as well. In either case bugging the phone is useless.
2. Once again I'll repeat, nobody is saying the Government cannot bug a phone. What we are saying is that the Government cannot bug a phone WITHOUT A WARRENT. And as Bones said, the government can get a warrent for just about anything within a few minutes thanks to FISA.
This is why I dont think this has anything to do with the war on terror, it doesnt make any sense at all. I suspect it has more to do with keeping tabs on John Q Citizen, and it wouldnt be the first time in US history the government has wiretapped ordinary Americans. See Richard Nixon, or J Edgar Hoover.
Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
MM & C/1
You would NOT believe the opposition I get from some of the Republicans that are members on another forum where I have made essentially the very same points. They spout Republican talking points verbatim to the point that I am not exactly sure which spin doctor is on the other end of the discussion. They defend GW's illegal warrant-less wiretapping with a ferocity which must be seen to be believed and make a defense for the indefensible which is Orwellian in nature.
Orwell's 1984 and Big Brother, are closer to reality today than they have ever been. The blame for this attack against the law and the Constitution can be laid directly at the feet of just one man ... GW BUSH - President of the United States.
From the patriot Act, signing statements, warrant-less wiretapping and other Bush policies, America's freedoms - the right to privacy - our civil rights - those things that make the United States the greatest country on earth, are under attack - not by a foreign power ... but ... the very President who swore to uphold the law and defend the Constitution.
GW Bush is a greater threat to America than AlQaeda ever was.
You would NOT believe the opposition I get from some of the Republicans that are members on another forum where I have made essentially the very same points. They spout Republican talking points verbatim to the point that I am not exactly sure which spin doctor is on the other end of the discussion. They defend GW's illegal warrant-less wiretapping with a ferocity which must be seen to be believed and make a defense for the indefensible which is Orwellian in nature.
Orwell's 1984 and Big Brother, are closer to reality today than they have ever been. The blame for this attack against the law and the Constitution can be laid directly at the feet of just one man ... GW BUSH - President of the United States.
From the patriot Act, signing statements, warrant-less wiretapping and other Bush policies, America's freedoms - the right to privacy - our civil rights - those things that make the United States the greatest country on earth, are under attack - not by a foreign power ... but ... the very President who swore to uphold the law and defend the Constitution.
GW Bush is a greater threat to America than AlQaeda ever was.
Rob Henderson
Banned
And yet...Which one killed over 3,000 innocents?
Damien435
Active member
I think what the Chief is trying to insinuate is that George Bush, a man who will be out of office in two years and likely never heard from again, is in a subtle sort of way giving the executive branch (and himself) more power and laying the seeds for even worse things to happen. Some people will look at these wiretaps as the first step down a slippery slope that will eventually lead to the end of democracy in America. I look at this as one step that has no (negative) impact on my life so I will not raise any fuss about it, instead I would wait till the government does something that I see as being truly morally wrong and truly a threat to the constitution and the beliefs that this nation was founded on before I start whining.
Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
1984 and Big Brother .....
There is only one problem with your plan D435 ... this is the very same thing that happened when Hitler and the Nazis came to power in Germany ... by the time the people realised what was going on, over six million Jews had already gone to the furnaces.
What I am afraid of, is that it might already be too late. With the advent of FISA, the Patriot Act and other lesser known 'terrorist' plans and programs ... our freedoms and rights may already be sitting on the edge of the precipice just waiting for a light tap to push them over the side.
Orwell's 1984 and Big Brother, may very well be much closer than anyone realises.
Damien435 said:
There is only one problem with your plan D435 ... this is the very same thing that happened when Hitler and the Nazis came to power in Germany ... by the time the people realised what was going on, over six million Jews had already gone to the furnaces.
What I am afraid of, is that it might already be too late. With the advent of FISA, the Patriot Act and other lesser known 'terrorist' plans and programs ... our freedoms and rights may already be sitting on the edge of the precipice just waiting for a light tap to push them over the side.
Orwell's 1984 and Big Brother, may very well be much closer than anyone realises.
mmarsh
Active member
C/LT Henderson
Who killed 3000?
Still doesnt justify it. It wouldnt justify eroding our civil liberties if it were just 3 or 3 Billion dead. You start playing around with our freedoms and the terrorists win. As I quoted earlier "those that forsake abit of freedom for abit of security deserve neither freedom nor security" -Ben Franklin
Damien435
Chief nailed that one down well
Chief used Hitler, I will add another example, Stalin. By the time people realized the harm Stalin (after he died in 1953) had done to the USSR 40 Million people were dead or set to the Gulag. In both examples, Totalitarianism doesn't happen overnight. It started by chipping away people freedom little by little, and when people finally wake up, they discover they arn't in Kansas anymore.
You also mistaken to think Bush leaving Office will be the end of the Bush Administration. Its not really the 'Bush Administration', in reality its the 'Neocon administration', and you can be sure they have lined up another puppet that they are just awaiting to insert into the White House.
Who killed 3000?
Still doesnt justify it. It wouldnt justify eroding our civil liberties if it were just 3 or 3 Billion dead. You start playing around with our freedoms and the terrorists win. As I quoted earlier "those that forsake abit of freedom for abit of security deserve neither freedom nor security" -Ben Franklin
Damien435
Chief nailed that one down well
Chief used Hitler, I will add another example, Stalin. By the time people realized the harm Stalin (after he died in 1953) had done to the USSR 40 Million people were dead or set to the Gulag. In both examples, Totalitarianism doesn't happen overnight. It started by chipping away people freedom little by little, and when people finally wake up, they discover they arn't in Kansas anymore.
You also mistaken to think Bush leaving Office will be the end of the Bush Administration. Its not really the 'Bush Administration', in reality its the 'Neocon administration', and you can be sure they have lined up another puppet that they are just awaiting to insert into the White House.
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Rob Henderson
Banned
Forgive me if I feel that I would rather be secure with a bit of government interference into something I hardly use than be bombed out my ears because Im next to a base and the gov't didnt know that terrorists were planning on bombing it...I value my life.mmarsh said:
Damien435
Active member
That's Germany and Russia in the 30's, totally different than the United States in 2006. Neither Germany nor Russia had a (postive) history of Democracy, Germany had 15 years of filth and poverty under the Weimar Republic, Russia had none, the United States has 200+ years of Democracy under our belts, we know it works and we consider our nation (being the most powerful nation in the world) as a prime example of the superiority of democracy over any other form of government.
Chief and MMarsh, what you guys are ignoring is that the military, the key any leader would need to try and overthrow democracy in America, would never, EVER allow anyone to overthrow the elected government and proclaim themselves "Dictator for Life" and the average Joe most likely wouldn't go along with it either. Unlike Germany and Russia any potential dictator would not be whisked into power and given a golden key to the nation, they would have to fight for it ever step of the way and they would fail.
Chief and MMarsh, what you guys are ignoring is that the military, the key any leader would need to try and overthrow democracy in America, would never, EVER allow anyone to overthrow the elected government and proclaim themselves "Dictator for Life" and the average Joe most likely wouldn't go along with it either. Unlike Germany and Russia any potential dictator would not be whisked into power and given a golden key to the nation, they would have to fight for it ever step of the way and they would fail.
Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
Part of the equation you seem to be ignoring, is the very real attack on America's civil liberties and Constitutionally guaranteed rights.
When I mentioned Orwell's 1984 and Big Brother, I was more than half serious. Because of the Patriot Act, GW's warrant-less wiretaps, FISA's dumbing down probable cause to "reasonable cause" when the warrant mentions terrorists (or) terrorism ... and other policies that have been crafted since 9/11 ... the United States has come closer to 1984 and Big Brother than at any time in our history.
The architect of this rapine of our rights, is the very person who swore to uphold the law and to protect the Constitution ... The President of the United States GW Bush.
I realise that I will probably be accused of 'Bush" bashing ... but ... who else is sitting in the Oval Office and is behind the decisions which put into action, attacks on our freedoms and our rights?
This attack on freedoms and liberties was condoned and ignored in Germany and Russia, and look at how many millions of deaths resulted because their enemies were allowed to get away with their subversion.
When I mentioned Orwell's 1984 and Big Brother, I was more than half serious. Because of the Patriot Act, GW's warrant-less wiretaps, FISA's dumbing down probable cause to "reasonable cause" when the warrant mentions terrorists (or) terrorism ... and other policies that have been crafted since 9/11 ... the United States has come closer to 1984 and Big Brother than at any time in our history.
The architect of this rapine of our rights, is the very person who swore to uphold the law and to protect the Constitution ... The President of the United States GW Bush.
I realise that I will probably be accused of 'Bush" bashing ... but ... who else is sitting in the Oval Office and is behind the decisions which put into action, attacks on our freedoms and our rights?
This attack on freedoms and liberties was condoned and ignored in Germany and Russia, and look at how many millions of deaths resulted because their enemies were allowed to get away with their subversion.
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Donkey
Active member
phoenix80 said:
It doesnt mater if you are doing anything wrong or not, the whole reason these are wrong and why our forefathers would agree is that it greatly restricts the ability to overthrow a tyranical goverment if necessary....
It goes against the winning of the cold war, fighting Hitler in WWII and so on...However it is probably being blown way out of proportion which is typical of the US news media...
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