London torched.

lvcabbie said:
Let's get off the name-calling and back to basics.

European countries imported a lot of "guest workers" from the Middle East to take jobs that the natives of those countries felt to be beneath them. Europeans expected free higher education and equally inflated salaries - many of them going to work for the various governments.

Well, economics played out and the private sector began to hire less as they send menial jobs overseas to avoid regulation and taxes. That, in turn, cut down on the number of menial jobs open for the "guest workers" and their children - thus creating the "discontent" that is claimed to have led to the riots.

Socialism is supposed to equalize all people across all racial and ethnic lines.
What it really does is create an upper class of government functionaries to tell the masses how to make the best of the poor lives they're left with.
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A few points, if you don't mind....

All Depends on the European country in question. Europe has a variety of different systems.

1. France for example which is considered "socialist" keeps a very tight reign on immigration. The UK is more lax on immigration but hardly what I'd call socialist.

2. Salaries/Benefits. again depends on the country in question. Salaries in France are actually quite low compared to what I am making in the UK/US (I am American, living in France with a UK Work permit -Dont ask! :lol:). The makeup is the benefits as French people get "luxuries" such as full retirement, universal healthcare, 5 weeks paid holiday, etc. In the Public sector salaries are even less, but the benefits are even greater. Its all a carefully balanced act. A country like the UK, salaries are much higher (US level) and while there are some benefits, they are nowhere near as generous as the Continent.

3. The problem in France is unemployment (now about 10%). These 10% are NOT the allegation of people not wanting to work, but people who cant find work. This is usually because they have no skills, limited education, and of course suffer things like discrimination. The UK is more or less the same problem. The riots are a direct cause of the government to address the issues. The government in both countries tends to few minorities as a burden, offering a very large stick (the police) and very few carrots (investment). This creates resentment especially in the UK where you have one of the largest disparities of wealth in the world.
 
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Christ, not that socialism vs capitalism stuff again.
In case you didn't realize, the reason why a lot of countries did adopt some level of social security was in fact because the pure capitalistic system of the industrial era made life unbearable for the lower classes. Exactly the sort of environment in which protests, riots and revolutions occur.
 
When you make it difficult to fire workers when needed, it creates an incintive to not hire extra workers. Therefore employment in good times isn't as high as it should be, restricting growth, throw a recession in the works...
 
George said:
When you make it difficult to fire workers when needed, it creates an incintive to not hire extra workers. Therefore employment in good times isn't as high as it should be, restricting growth, throw a recession in the works...
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True, and that is the trade-off. The opposite side of that coin is offering employees protection limits the unfair exploitation that happened during the industrial revolution. As you can see the is both a + and - in both systems. Which is why I advocate a economic system somewhere in the middle. Moving to far to the extreme either way is bad.
 
A Can of Man said:
Christ, not that socialism vs capitalism stuff again.
In case you didn't realize, the reason why a lot of countries did adopt some level of social security was in fact because the pure capitalistic system of the industrial era made life unbearable for the lower classes. Exactly the sort of environment in which protests, riots and revolutions occur.
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This is the sanest post I've seen on the topic in ages.
 
George said:
When you make it difficult to fire workers when needed, it creates an incintive to not hire extra workers. Therefore employment in good times isn't as high as it should be, restricting growth, throw a recession in the works...
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But it also prevents such practices as people being fired for merely wanting those things that are legally theirs, like safe working conditions and being paid the correct wages.
 
If someone somewhere has figured out the perfect world elmployment system, then societies the world over most likely would have adopted it by now.
 
No they wouldn't because in politics ideology trumps common sense, even if you come up with the perfect system it is the role of the opposition to stop it.

Politics has permeated every aspect of administration these days from village/town admin to running the country, what used to be small councils running their towns with a view to improvement have been replaced with organisations that are mini versions of national politics.
 
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What's happening is pretty damned obvious.
And as for financial woes in America... it's not about left or right... it's about mismanagement and greed. Especially short term greed.
 
Oddly enough I am not sure I agree as there are a lot of people that believe their reality is the only right one and therefore while all sides will agree with your statement they expect that it is the other side that has to come back to reality.
 
I don't confuse my opinion with reality.

What I consider reality is what is happening on the streets. Not some rehashed opinion on socio ecnomic problems that I really myself don't even understand.

So no worries, no four page charged breakdown of the "true" reason the UK riots from me, or a recommended list of policy makers or national employment models to blame.
 
Yossarian said:
If someone somewhere has figured out the perfect world elmployment system, then societies the world over most likely would have adopted it by now.
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Unfortunately no, because there is always human weakness like greed to add into the mix. We could create the perfect economic system, but there would always be someone, somewhere, who would try and cut themselves a largely piece of the pie.
 
I agree there are greedy people in high up places especially in Great Britain, starting with certain Members of Parliament.While the cost of living gets higher, the fat cats get richer.
If it wasn't for the Trade Unions of yesteryear who fought for conditions both for men and women. Not just in the workplace but for everyday family life.We in Great Britain if it wasn't for those unionists would still be in the dark ages working for a song.
Going back too the Riots. No matter what ones circumstances are, British people in general want those rioters who caused the mayhem to feel the full threat of the law
What those minority of idiots did was did was pure anarchy
 
mmarsh said:
Unfortunately no, because there is always human weakness like greed to add into the mix. We could create the perfect economic system, but there would always be someone, somewhere, who would try and cut themselves a largely(er?) piece of the pie.
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I would disagree that equality of outcome is "perfect".
 
I have now seen a handful of interviews with actual rioters. Whilst some, especially the older ones in their late 20's and 30's were politically / class motivated, the great majority were school-age teens just in for the drama of wrecking property and stealing items they saw easily obtainable in the street mayhem. They were not poor. Two school girls were interviewed and their dialogue was astonishing in their complete lack of responsibility for the damage and trauma they caused. They bragged about their assault on an old woman and a tourist couple and stealing clothes. They were part of a spontaneously assembled gang of friends and strangers alike, with their age group and hooded tops being the main common unifier. This scene was repeated in many other parts and the source is not classism but the lack of values such as respect.

Class and social double-standards may be part of the issue but social moral decay is the true root of much of what has happened in the UK riots.

I also have another theory re: pent up frustration due to low scores in the sport of soccer (see earlier post) :)
 
Iran offers Britain peacekeepers to deal with riots

Iran is ready to send paramilitary volunteers to Britain to help "establish security and stability" in the wake of widespread rioting, Iranian media reported on Friday.

A wave of riots and looting engulfed many British cities in recent days, leaving at least five people dead.

Basij Brigadier General Mohammad Reza Naghdi said, "We are ready to send Basij detachments as a peacekeeping force to London, Liverpool, Birmingham and other cities to help restore order and stability in Britain."

He said the volunteers would act as "peacekeepers between police and protestors," adding that the detachments would only be deployed with UN permission.

The military official described the situation in Britain as "people's demonstrations against tyranny," saying that the London's description of the events as "disturbances" was not true.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad condemned on Thursday British police actions against the rioters, saying they were excessive.

London police have refrained from using any riot control weapons or firearms against rioters in the past four days. However, an emergency COBRA meeting resolved that harsher measures are needed to curb the rioting.

Violence began in the British capital's northern district of Tottenham on Saturday over the fatal shooting of a young man by police. On Sunday and Monday, it spread to other areas in London and Birmingham.
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http://en.rian.ru/world/20110812/165735037.html

isn't this the same as sending killers to keep the peace???
 
In internetspeak, it's known as trolling.
Yes, Iran is trolling.

Since Western forces are sent as peacekeepers to other countries when there is civil unrest, he's suggesting he'll do the same for the UK.
 
TO M.MARSH

“Funny thing that. I have for years treated you with velvet gloves because I wished to show care and compassion towards you since you posted that you were slightly handicapped. Funny old life ain't it.”

During my unavoidable absence, my temper has cooled. As I promised I am back to pursue the matter and I would point out that actually the troll in this case is yourself, and you have hi-jacked my thread.
At the top is the post which you refer to as an accusation; take a look – it is no accusation – it is a sad and poignant reflection regarding a friendly empathy towards you which I have respected for years.
As evidence of this I can boldly refer you to each and every response I have made to your posts over the years – always kind, careful and supportive.
With your inflated ego and lack of empathy you now decide to magnify this for your own show-boating and deride it as a negative.
Of course I now begrudge you those years of careful consideration.
Since my return late on Saturday night I have tried to find on the Forum the two posts in question, years 2007 or 2008 I would guess; these hold the key to any confusion which has arisen; the one I recall and the one which you recall.
Certainly we know that such a dialogue regarding slight handicap took place. However, I became incensed at your suggestion that you believed you had corrected my version at that time, in your up-date. I knew this to be untrue because I did not mention it to anyone at the time, until this thread.
You accuse me of being old – an old man; I wager a £ to a pinch of snuff that my memory is better than yours. I am a fulfilled man, young at heart; it is possible that you may have been a boring old fart all your life, who knows at this distance?
Without the benefit of the two posts in question it does not seem possible to move forward and therefore I will accede to your demands – I have put up my case and now I will shut up – unless provoked.


Kindly now stop trying to provoke me by repeating posts about yourself on my thread. Get on-topic or clear off.
I remind you of the above caveat.
 
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