It's going to be interesting in the coming decades...

lee kwan yew is now the minister mentor of Singapore...
what ever that is, but it suggest to me he still has considerable influence...
 
perseus said:
Russia is now the worst of both worlds, laissez-faire and effectively a dictatorship via the media. Shows the two concepts are not intrinsically related!
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Name one communist country that has not degraded into a totaletarian dictatorship.

Or STFU and go wave the red banner of social "eqaulity" elsewhere.

Your talkin crap and ignoring history.
 
03USMC said:
Name one communist country that has not degraded into a totaletarian dictatorship.

Or STFU and go wave the red banner of social "eqaulity" elsewhere.

Your talkin crap and ignoring history.
Click to expand...

It demonstrates that right as well as left wing institutions can become authoritarian. Communist is almost by definition a political dictatorship, that why I oppose such regimes. There are plenty less extreme institutions which have less dictatorship than say the UK and America, in that they aren't almost completely ruled by cooperations via stealth. I cite the Scandinavian countries for example. I can't remember being asked for my papers, or frog marched into prison when I last lived in a socialist country about 30 years ago! Gosh was it that long?

However, I am reaping the rewards and legacy of that socialist country at this point in time, because my 'hire and fire' company have suddenly discovered they can't do anything of the sort because of certain retained rights of workers. Hence it becomes difficult to bully people in the workplace providing they are prepared to provide a decent days work for a decent days pay.

My friend in contrast, has no such rights, he has no health insurance, no flexibility in working hours, few vacations, rotten pension and rotten pay. He thinks he is forced to accept no pay rises or changes in conditions because he believes that his job will be put under jeopardy. Talk about brainwashing! Meanwhile the shareholders and bosses of his company are laughing all the way to the bank with increased pay and dividends. If that's the sort of country you want you can have it!
 
the_13th_redneck said:
Yeah in the point of view of Russians, Putin has done a very good job of bringing a country that was on the verge of falling apart back together again.
Regardless of what title he goes by, we all know Putin is the guy who is really running the show. A bit like Singapore's Lee Kwan Yew. Singapore has a President and a Prime Minister but the man in charge is Lee Kwan Yew. Don't know how active Lee Kwan Yew is now though... he was Senior Minister until 2004 but don't know after that. He's in his 90's now.
But same deal I think.
Read: dictator. ;)
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I don't think that Putin is a dictator in legal terms. He is a man that Russians love to vote for. The Top Russian Dog. And it would be incorrect to see Medvedev as a victim , puppet of Putin.

It is all pretty open actually. IMO. Medvedev's election campaign even had it as the phrase of the election " The perfect team " .

Putin is Medvedev's benefactor , he is the one that enabled Medvedev to run for President. And even if he was not a prime minister he would run things from behind the curtain.

IMO this happens not only in Russia but in many countries with the top dogs , the people who have great influences. The leaders of the Parties that rule for a long time. And he is such a leader.


Where Putin should be called a dictator is in his abuses of power law and democracy , while he exercises power. however his hard approach had some positive effects other than the negative ones.

What someone should question is if he abused his power to be as a Top dog as he is , i.e he hunted news stations that choose to portray him in ways he didn't like. And so one may claim that his status is not fully earned in a democratic way.
 
perseus said:
It demonstrates that right as well as left wing institutions can become authoritarian. Communist is almost by definition a political dictatorship, that why I oppose such regimes. There are plenty less extreme institutions which have less dictatorship than say the UK and America, in that they aren't almost completely ruled by cooperations via stealth. I cite the Scandinavian countries for example. I can't remember being asked for my papers, or frog marched into prison when I last lived in a socialist country about 30 years ago! Gosh was it that long?

However, I am reaping the rewards and legacy of that socialist country at this point in time, because my 'hire and fire' company have suddenly discovered they can't do anything of the sort because of certain retained rights of workers. Hence it becomes difficult to bully people in the workplace providing they are prepared to provide a decent days work for a decent days pay.

My friend in contrast, has no such rights, he has no health insurance, no flexibility in working hours, few vacations, rotten pension and rotten pay. He thinks he is forced to accept no pay rises or changes in conditions because he believes that his job will be put under jeopardy. Talk about brainwashing! Meanwhile the shareholders and bosses of his company are laughing all the way to the bank with increased pay and dividends. If that's the sort of country you want you can have it!
Click to expand...

Both instances are instances of capitalism. And Scandinavian countries are not socialist , no they are capitalist. You are aware of that aren't you ?

If communism helped capitalism in any way is a matter for the history books and has not political relevancy today (that dead system is completly irrelevant),
 
Folks like Perseus never quite think of how it would be if they actually owned their own store.
You hire five guys. Two guys do all the work and three guys do nothing. The pay's good enough so they aren't in any real pressure to get a raise or promotion. Three guys do nothing and the two guys are starting to get fed up. You want to fire at least one of those three guys to get them motivated but you can't because it's illegal.
You try everything... eventually you get two of those three lazy guys to quit.
You are very VERY reluctant to hire anyone else. Operation under you and the two guys (who are happier now that the lazy asses aren't coming to work anymore) is much better. You think your shop has a capacity to grow (and hence create more jobs) but you have the dillemma that it's excruciatingly hard to fire anyone in the event that you do hire the wrong person (and believe me, you have to go through quite a few employees before you find the right ones).
So in the end you settle for just not expanding your operations and worry about what's going to happen if one of those guys who actually gets work done has to quit for some reason.
Now imagine this happening many times over.
How's that supposed to generate wealth?
 
I'm fully aware of the problems of difficult employees in both types of environment. The best employees are the ones which are self motivated, some people actually enjoy work. Once you have installed that type of culture you don't need to use the stick. Yes that why I specifically said said a fair days work.

People who are motivated by self interest will stab you in the back. The Machiavellian culture which has evolved in most corporations is an abhorrent side of capitalism which has direct and indirect negative side effects. It makes people, ill angry, stressed, I'm not even convinced it is any good for the company less still the state.

You cannot employ people and give them immediate full rights, you need to take them on trial which can be extended to a limited extent before they obtain full rights, and unions need to agree to this.
 
In bold...

perseus said:
I'm fully aware of the problems of difficult employees in both types of environment. The best employees are the ones which are self motivated, some people actually enjoy work. Once you have installed that type of culture you don't need to use the stick. Yes that why I specifically said said a fair days work.
You assume that self motivation falls out of the clouds into lands that have been blessed to be populated with self motivated people. Why is it that the guys who work in the government offices so unmotivated and people who work in the private sector at least comparably more motivated? You know what happens to self motivated people in a public workplace? They get pushed out because the old guard do not want any activity to occur. This is why I assume that all government run organizations will run on a loss but their importance to the country and the population justifies this. As a rule, they do run on a loss. So you have to choose which ones should have a public option and which shouldn't.

People who are motivated by self interest will stab you in the back.
That's just bad people. There are plenty of self interest oriented people who don't stab people in the back. And there are back stabbers regardless of what system you have in place. You think no back stabbing occurs in Communism? You're badly mistaken if you think so.
The Machiavellian culture which has evolved in most corporations is an abhorrent side of capitalism which has direct and indirect negative side effects. It makes people, ill angry, stressed, I'm not even convinced it is any good for the company less still the state.
Do you really believe that this sort of stuff is unique to us? Most of the stress comes from the fact that technological advances have kept us in touch with work a little too well and the pace of work has increased. But if you actually kept your eyes and ears open you'd know that people in the past had their own set of problems as well. Just that they weren't as whiney.

You cannot employ people and give them immediate full rights, you need to take them on trial which can be extended to a limited extent before they obtain full rights, and unions need to agree to this.
Probational period. Yeah, I know. But what happens after the probational period? Anyone can pretend to work for three months.
Click to expand...
 
03USMC said:
Name one communist country that has not degraded into a totaletarian dictatorship.

Or STFU and go wave the red banner of social "eqaulity" elsewhere.

Your talkin crap and ignoring history.
Click to expand...

A minor quibble, but modern-day Vietnam.

Its not a pure communist state anymore nor is it a system I'd want to copy, but its not a totalitarian regime either. But I'll readily admit that's the exception not the rule.
 
Yeah but they were miserably poor for a very long time.
Ever since they opened their markets they've been doing better.
See the connection Perseus?
 
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