Yossarian
Forum Resistance Leader
Don't feed him good friend, ingnorace is like poison to such individuals.
Israel Got Him
Don't feed him good friend, ingnorace is like poison to such individuals.
brinktk
Active member
I'm gonna go ahead and use a position of authority as a basis for my argument.
Raise your hand if you've ever been victim of radical muslem violence?
<<<<raising hand
Raise your hand if you've ever had to deal with muslems on a daily basis?
<<<<raising hand
Raise your hand if you've ever picked up human remains from a suicide bomber? friend and foe alike?
<<<<raising hand
Raise your hand if you can understand how desperate people can resort to desperate tactics in the face of overwhelming force?
<<<<raising hand
Raise your hand if you were ever able to cut violence in a sector of extremist muslems (Hawijah Iraq) by 80% through understanding, compromise, and fairness?
<<<<raising hand
Raise your hand if you can really emphathize with the loss of either side? If you REALLY give a sh!t about what it means to walk to a market and then see the senseless death and destruction that is caused from an opposite point of view? (usually sectarian violence)
<<<<raising hand
To all of you...an unwillingness to listen to one another leads to the violence that guys like me see regularly. You may not realize it, but by being unwilling to be objective and unwilling to compromise, you doom thousands or more to a fate of death and dismemberment, including myself! But, you will never know the consequences of the viewpoints you make because you don't see the consequences and destruction that is a result of this mindset. You sit from the luxury of your godam computers and spout theology, theocracy, and bullsh!t. I'm sick of it. I will tolerate it no longer.
Do some fvcking research before speaking one sentence about what you think Islam is. If I can get it, a trailerpark kid from south central Kansas (one of the most conservative areas of the United States). ANYONE CAN
Historically, Islam has been FAR more tolerant than Christianity and Judaism EVER has. Recognize their existence, that's all they really ask...otherwise our children and grandchildren will pay with their lives and their youth dealing with this misunderstanding.
Israel exists...this is a fact. The Palestinians want to be recognized, this is a fact. How do we accomplish a reasonable conclusion without both sides killing one another for the next 200 years?...THAT'S what we should be discussing! Frankly, I don't know if I can take another loss of one of my soldiers, or another situation where I have to piece together the remains of a coalition counterpart or look into the face of a kid while he guides me to the location of the remains of one of his family members that was literally annihilated in the blast of a carbomb. It's got to end.
The madness has to end...
Raise your hand if you've ever been victim of radical muslem violence?
<<<<raising hand
Raise your hand if you've ever had to deal with muslems on a daily basis?
<<<<raising hand
Raise your hand if you've ever picked up human remains from a suicide bomber? friend and foe alike?
<<<<raising hand
Raise your hand if you can understand how desperate people can resort to desperate tactics in the face of overwhelming force?
<<<<raising hand
Raise your hand if you were ever able to cut violence in a sector of extremist muslems (Hawijah Iraq) by 80% through understanding, compromise, and fairness?
<<<<raising hand
Raise your hand if you can really emphathize with the loss of either side? If you REALLY give a sh!t about what it means to walk to a market and then see the senseless death and destruction that is caused from an opposite point of view? (usually sectarian violence)
<<<<raising hand
To all of you...an unwillingness to listen to one another leads to the violence that guys like me see regularly. You may not realize it, but by being unwilling to be objective and unwilling to compromise, you doom thousands or more to a fate of death and dismemberment, including myself! But, you will never know the consequences of the viewpoints you make because you don't see the consequences and destruction that is a result of this mindset. You sit from the luxury of your godam computers and spout theology, theocracy, and bullsh!t. I'm sick of it. I will tolerate it no longer.
Do some fvcking research before speaking one sentence about what you think Islam is. If I can get it, a trailerpark kid from south central Kansas (one of the most conservative areas of the United States). ANYONE CAN
Historically, Islam has been FAR more tolerant than Christianity and Judaism EVER has. Recognize their existence, that's all they really ask...otherwise our children and grandchildren will pay with their lives and their youth dealing with this misunderstanding.
Israel exists...this is a fact. The Palestinians want to be recognized, this is a fact. How do we accomplish a reasonable conclusion without both sides killing one another for the next 200 years?...THAT'S what we should be discussing! Frankly, I don't know if I can take another loss of one of my soldiers, or another situation where I have to piece together the remains of a coalition counterpart or look into the face of a kid while he guides me to the location of the remains of one of his family members that was literally annihilated in the blast of a carbomb. It's got to end.
The madness has to end...
senojekips
Active member
Well, for a start, I can't see it ending without further violence. Negotiation as we seem to imply it at the moment, will not bring peace as the only options being discussed all revolve around the wronged party having to make all the sacrifices.
The warm and fuzzy (please everyone) approach is not going to work, not in the short term nor in the long term. The first thing we have to do is swallow our pride, stop making excuses and admit what we have always known,... this is not about religion, it's about injustice, injustice bought about by us, and exacerbated by the West's continued deliberate support of one side and antagonism of the other. Yes, it is us who have bought this mess about, and it should be us who sees it fixed.
Jews and Arabs have lived in Palestine (and many other places) quite peacefully for over a thousand years, the only time we see trouble is when one party starts taking advantage of the other.
Face it,... so,long as there is no justice, there will be no peace. If we can't recognise that, there is no hope, short of exterminating every Arab in the area, and of course their Islamic brothers who will come to their defence.
The warm and fuzzy (please everyone) approach is not going to work, not in the short term nor in the long term. The first thing we have to do is swallow our pride, stop making excuses and admit what we have always known,... this is not about religion, it's about injustice, injustice bought about by us, and exacerbated by the West's continued deliberate support of one side and antagonism of the other. Yes, it is us who have bought this mess about, and it should be us who sees it fixed.
Jews and Arabs have lived in Palestine (and many other places) quite peacefully for over a thousand years, the only time we see trouble is when one party starts taking advantage of the other.
Face it,... so,long as there is no justice, there will be no peace. If we can't recognise that, there is no hope, short of exterminating every Arab in the area, and of course their Islamic brothers who will come to their defence.
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BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
So if someone walked around with a T shirt that read "6 Million Jews were not enough." You would be OK with that?
You are a bigger idiot then I thought you were, go back to playing with the rest of the kiddies.
With extremists on both sides I can't see that happening any time soon.
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how many times do you need me to tell you? the only reason you got sinai back is because of the peace treaty. even when you suprised us you still got your ass kicked.
But how are you going to talk with someone (Hamas) who has stated in its covenant to destroy Israel (article 15 : "The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." Article 15 also says : "It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis. Palestine contains Islamic holy sites."
In Israel Arabs, Jews and Christians live peacefull together. In the PA Jews are not allowed and the Christians are leaving.
Israel already made peace with some Arab muslim countries and there were no problems. It's all peaceful. The only thing that Israel wants is to stop the attacks. The settlements? Is that a problem? When the PA gets their nation status and the borders are fixed then the settlements within their borders become Palestinian villages. But the problem is not the settlements but the Jews who are living there, they are not allowed in "Palestine".
As I said from in the beginning, it's a religious thing, and history (all over the world) has shown how nasty such problems can be.
Nowhere in the world are there problems with jews, only in the region Palestine. All over the world there are problems with muslims, not only in Palestine.
Why should Israel use an expensive guided missile with a very expensive high tech plane to destroy some people drinking tea? You're crazy. If they would do that they would just drop a powerful cheap unguided bomb with a cheap plane to destroy as many civilians as they can and claim it was a mistake.
Israel just don't spent taxpayers money to destroy things that are no threat. It's all in your mind.
So was Palestine.
When the cease fire came into effect, Israel had lost territory on the east side of the Suez Canal to Egypt (shown in red) but gained territory west of the canal and in the Golan Heights (shown in green).
When the cease-fire began, the Israeli forces were just a few hundred meters short of their goal—the last road linking Cairo and Suez. During the night, the Egyptians broke the cease-fire in a number of locations, destroying nine Israeli tanks. In response, David Elazar requested permission to resume the drive south, and Moshe Dayan approved (Rabinovich, 463). The Israeli troops finished the drive south, captured the road, and trapped the Egyptian Third Army east of the Suez Canal.
You don't seem to know the Israelis. All they want is peace and no attacks. Israel was made sure of that (plus acces through the Suez canal, no more trips around Africa). They got what they wanted the most. Sinai was just a defensive buffer against attacks that was not needed anymore after the peace agreement. And it still holds.
The madness is in the hands of the radical muslims, they can end it whenever they want, but they won't. It's time you learn some history.
Peaceful? Only as second class citizens everywhere the Islamists ruled. Why do you think that there are so few christians and jews in Islamist countries? Stop reading anti-israel propaganda and start learning some history.
lolwhassup
Active member
I am young and not know as much as many of the members of this forum, I have never been deployed or have to deal with Muslims on a everyday basis, however I do completely agree with you.
My MOS might be boring and pointless as it stands, however I fear the day I have to be sent on a mission to utilize my CBRN training because that is the day that horrible amounts of violence and bloodshed will take place and thousands if not millions will fall prey to terrible effects of CBRN weapons. If the madness doesn't stop, then that day might come soon and people will suffer horrific deaths that have not been seen since WW1, even worse now than ever because of the sophistication of modern Chemical weapons.
People in the world need to open their eyes instead of allowing for history to repeat itself and only solve the problem when senseless violence has opened their eyes for them. It won't just cost the lives of Israelis or Palestinians, for it will risk my life and the lives of my brothers and sisters-in-arms.
m551sheridan
Active member
It has been a loooooong time since 1945... the muslim world WILL detonate a *dirty* devise somewhere or hit Israel with a missile. Then a stunned world will act all dumbfounded and cry *how did this happen?* - playing the innocent........ just like 38-44 Germany - *but we didn't know*... and the game will escalate - maybe it is time to wake up this cruel world.
lolwhassup
Active member
That's precisely what I was saying and I'm simply stating we need to stop the madness before it happens.
m551sheridan
Active member
I know that was what you were saying..... I am saying that mans eye has been clouded to what once happened, such that they WILL do it again... that and a perverse ideology that will justify doing so. Ahmadinejad NEEDS such an event to bring forth the 5th iman - nothing else matters.
Yossarian
Forum Resistance Leader
I don't want to see American's killed over Israel's plight, even if my fellow Americans don't like it.
I don't want Palestinians wiped off the map, or Israelis.
I will fight it to the end, I believe a path with the least human casualities is the first step.
I will always be open to discussion, to talking and exchanging ideas. And to all avenues of approach, I will never shut either side, no matter how much I may disagree with them.
And strive to find a solution that not only has comprise to both parties, but ensures a quality of life and place on this Earth for all.
If you don't like this thinking then I can provide a return address for your suicide bombers and Strike Jet Fighters.
You can kill people like me but you will never kill the idea.
brinktk
Active member
"The madness is in the hands of the radical muslims, they can end it whenever they want, but they won't. It's time you learn some history."
The rise of radical islam as we know it goes hand in hand with the rise of a Jewish state in Palestine...
Saying I need to "learn some history" is simply saying " You don't think or believe like me, so continue to look for more information because I know better than you and history as I believe it is correct"
I would venture to say that you don't have a clue about how this all came to be...
It didn't start in Palestine, I can tell you that.
I do know my history, I'm also a trained historian...What are your qualifications?
The rise of radical islam as we know it goes hand in hand with the rise of a Jewish state in Palestine...
Saying I need to "learn some history" is simply saying " You don't think or believe like me, so continue to look for more information because I know better than you and history as I believe it is correct"
I would venture to say that you don't have a clue about how this all came to be...
It didn't start in Palestine, I can tell you that.
I do know my history, I'm also a trained historian...What are your qualifications?
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senojekips
Active member
What to you and I, may seem like madness, to others is no more than well justified revenge*, and we all know that the Arabs per se have long standing policies regarding revenge against those who might be so stupid as to make them lose face.
Had the Zionists never been given all the best parts of Palestine and allowed to drive out the majority of the population and had the US and a few others not actively supported this,.... I think that modern thinking, and more to the point modern technology (radio ,TV and the internet) would have slowly silenced the radicals at at least kept them very much in their box.
Our blind stupidity was a gift from Allah to the radicals, driving huge numbers of otherwise disaffected Muslims straight into their arms. In the lower echelons they gained the poor, landless and disenfranchised, in the upper echelons they gained people like Bin Laden and Anwar Al Awlaki who saw it as a means to recognition and possible power within their own groups (maybe more).
* Just put yourself in their position for a minute and you'll see what I mean. I know,... I haven't got what it takes, to strap several Kgs of explosive around my rather ample gut, (plenty of room) but it does give us some idea of exactly how committed they are.
This is not going to just go way, nor are they going to allow us to railroad them into an "honourable" peace unless they get justice. .. quite rightly so.
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ScarabVenom
Active member
I heard you the first time you said it. And no, it's not the only reason we got back the Sinai. Israel agreed to pull back off the Sinai on the Disengagement of Forces agreement and AS A START they pull back to the east side of the passes. Why did they pull back to the Sinai 40 kilometers away from the Egyptian bridgeheads while the Egyptians didn't pull back a step?? Please, answer this.
I got 2 points to say to you:
1) "Got your ass kicked" I believe you could express this in a different way, this is not a civilized way if you are civil to have a discussion.
2) You claim a defeat of ours yet, so far you failed to provide any reason. It doesn't need to much brains to realize that the IDF lost ALL it's gains on the Egyptian front and backed off to the passes while the EAF could maintain it's bridgeheads across the canal and kept it's victories to the last day of the war.
Take a look at the IDF's situation from BOTH Egyptian and Israeli sources and that ought give you an idea of what I'm talking about...
Egyptian Field Marshall/Mohamed Abd El-Ghany El-Gamassy.
"[FONT="]It was essential that the Israeli command protect its forces in a limited sector west of the canal by dispersing them over a wider area. Consequently more troops were sent west of the canal. The outcome was untenable strategically for several reasons. One, Israel now had a large force (about six or seven brigades) in a very limited area of land, surrounded from all sides either by natural or man-made barriers, or by the Egyptian forces. This put it in a weak position. Moreover, there were the difficulties in supplying this force, in evacuating it, in the lengthy communication lines, and in the daily attrition in men and equipment. Two, to protect these troops, the Israeli command had to allocate other forces (four or five brigades) to defend the entrances to the breach at the Deversoir. Three, to immobilize the Egyptian bridgeheads in Sinai the Israeli command had to allocate ten brigades to face the Second and Third army bridgeheads. In addition, it became necessary to keep the strategic reserves at their maximum state of alert. Thus, Israel was obliged to keep its armed force-and consequently the country-mobilized for a long period, at least until the war came to an end, because the ceasefire did not signal the end of the war. There is no doubt that this in total conflict with its military theories." Page, 302 English edition.
Israeli Minister of Defense/Moshe Dayan
"
[/FONT][FONT="]...Both plans were based on massive artillery pounding of our forces, who were not well fortified and who would suffer heavy casualties. It was therefore thought that Israel would withdraw from the west bank, since she was most sensitive on the subject of soldier's lives. Egypt, at the time had a total of 1,700 first-line tanks on both sides of the canal front, 700 on the east bank and 1,000 on the west bank. Also on the west bank, in the second line, were an additional 600 tanks for the defense of Cairo. She had some 2,000 artillery pieces, about 500 operational aircraft, and at least 130 SAM missile batteries positioned around our forces so as to deny us air support." Page- 568 English edition.
Before you mention the surrounded Egyptian 3rd Army, read this,
Israeli Chief of Staff/David Elazar,
[/FONT][FONT="]"As for the third army, in spite of our encircling them they resisted and advanced to occupy in fact a wider area of land at the east. Thus, we can not say that we defeated or conquered them."
[/FONT]
ScarabVenom
Active member
What brought Palestine to what I was talking about?
When the cease fire came into effect, Israel had lost territory on the east side of the Suez Canal to Egypt (shown in red) but gained territory west of the canal and in the Golan Heights (shown in green).
The ceasefire? There was a ceasefire on the 22nd, no? But you don't speak of it because the Egyptian situation was still better. There was a ceasefire on the 24th, no? But, still you don't mention this one. You mention the 28th. Yes, because the IDF had the upper hand now. But, let me tell you something, the Ceasefire WASN'T the end of the war whether you believe it or not and this is confirmed by BOTH Egyptian and Israeli generals.
"[FONT="]because the ceasefire did not signal the end of the war." - Mohamed Abd El-Ghany El-Gamassy.
[/FONT][FONT="]"The cease-fire existed on paper, but the continued firing along the front was not the only characteristic of the situation between October 24, 1973 and January 18, 1974[/FONT]
And your point would be? I guess I never denied that the Egyptian Third Army was surrounded, did I? But, look at the part of Elazar's quote I stated above in bold. That might give you a hint of something.
The Israelis, they're out of this argument...I don't know them, they don't know me. Israeli government or IDF, yeah you are absolutely right *sarcrasm*
“The 1967 war was the last of wars… after which there is nothing left for the Arabs but to plead for mercy” Moshe Dayan
"Aryeh Biro, a retired Israeli officer, publicly admitted weeks ago that war crimes were committed in the Sinai in 1967" I got this from an Israeli newspaper, I don't remember which one...sorry.
[FONT="]"The killing of Egyptian captives in the Six Day War was a war crime … but the problem in the region is that war crimes are numerous," the newspaper quoted Sarid as saying on Saturday.[/FONT]
[FONT="]That's of course besides the killings by the IDF after the peace treaty and we have discussed this before in the other thread. So yeah, peaceful beyond imagination you are right.
[/FONT]
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The question for me is “why US support Israel?” I think there are two answers for this question.
First answer is that there are strong lobbies in the US who are pro-Israel and support them frequently. I think you know them well and it isn’t necessary to explain more.
When I was watching the last Obama and Romney debate, it was funny when they were competing to prove that they were or they would be the best Israel supporter.
For example Obama said “no government in the US history have supported Israel like my government “and Romney said “me and Netanyahu are best friend since University till now and absolutely Israel won’t have any problem if I become the US president” or many things like that.
But the question is for who they were proving themselves? For the US people or for pro-Israel lobbies?
If the second one is true, so what is the US people role in their country?
If they (Obama and Romney) didn’t support Israel, these lobbies wouldn’t support them with their massive propaganda machine and they would never be the winner of any elections.
So the result is-it is not important supporting of Israel is useful for US or not. It is important that Israel have to be supported at any cost.
But the second answer is, although the US suffers a lot of cost for Israel supporting and they have lost many of their soldiers in the ME for that, the advantages they gain are much more than the cost they pay.
An old proverb says if you want to catch fish, make the water muddy.
It is better to answer this question. which one is better for US? (It is better to say world capitalism) A middle east that their people are living in peace, or a middle east that has many crisis and war? If the second one is true there is nothing better than a regime like Israel to help them to reach this aid.
First answer is that there are strong lobbies in the US who are pro-Israel and support them frequently. I think you know them well and it isn’t necessary to explain more.
When I was watching the last Obama and Romney debate, it was funny when they were competing to prove that they were or they would be the best Israel supporter.
For example Obama said “no government in the US history have supported Israel like my government “and Romney said “me and Netanyahu are best friend since University till now and absolutely Israel won’t have any problem if I become the US president” or many things like that.
But the question is for who they were proving themselves? For the US people or for pro-Israel lobbies?
If the second one is true, so what is the US people role in their country?
If they (Obama and Romney) didn’t support Israel, these lobbies wouldn’t support them with their massive propaganda machine and they would never be the winner of any elections.
So the result is-it is not important supporting of Israel is useful for US or not. It is important that Israel have to be supported at any cost.
But the second answer is, although the US suffers a lot of cost for Israel supporting and they have lost many of their soldiers in the ME for that, the advantages they gain are much more than the cost they pay.
An old proverb says if you want to catch fish, make the water muddy.
It is better to answer this question. which one is better for US? (It is better to say world capitalism) A middle east that their people are living in peace, or a middle east that has many crisis and war? If the second one is true there is nothing better than a regime like Israel to help them to reach this aid.
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As a trained historian you should know that radical islam is about a worldwide caliphate with sharia law.
As a trained historian you should know that according to radical islam occupied muslim ground must be recaptured (jihad)
As a trained historian you should know that Israel is founded on muslim ground.
radical islam doesn't care about the Palestinians, they only fight with them to recapture muslim ground occupied by the jews (non muslims).
Read the covenant of Hamas (radical islam)
Unfortunately for the muslims , radical Islam is divided (shia - sunni), the one calling the other a heretic that must be killed.
A good example is the invasion/liberation of Iraq where radical shias were happy that the coalition forces toppled Sadam (sunni). When that job was finished the coalition forces wanted to rebuild the country but that was not how radical Islam saw it and they started (sunni and shia) to attack the coalition forces (and each other) because they were foreign boots on muslim land.
If Israel wouldn't be founded then radical Islam was fighting in the Balkans (they once did and it was not that long ago). Most suicide bombers are not committed but brainwashed.
The only solution to eradicate radical islam is to start with the education. No more madrasses. I support your idea about modern technology but that alone is not enough. Look at Afganistan. As long as the radicals are being brainwashed in the madrasses from an early age on in Pakistan they will flow into Afghanistan.
Ever thought about this one: many Americans are devoted christians and prefer Jewish control over the Holy Land than the muslims. They (Palestinians) already destroyed Joseph's Tomb and anti-Christian graffiti is not uncommon in Bethlehem and neighboring Beit Sahur, proclaiming: ‘First the Saturday people (the Jews), then the Sunday people (the Christians),
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Here is a thought, as a trained historian he knows how to analyse data for himself and can probably even do it with an open mind.
As I age I wish I had studied history at college but at the time Engineers were paid better.
brinktk
Active member
I'm well aware of the doctrine of radical Islam. It's roots go back to the writings of Ibn Tamiya that were revived in the last half century for use by the jihadis.
There is a great feeling of humiliation throughout the Muslem world. This radical Islam is a manifestation of it.
It's not radical Islam that believes that occupied Muslem ground needs to be recaptured, the writings are in the Hadith are clear about that matter and even secular Muslems are pretty set on recovering that ground. You mentioned this is "jihad". Jihad means "to struggle". Do you understand the steps that must be taken for a legitimate lesser jihad to be called? That's right, lesser jihad, there are two of them. The greater jihad is hardly mentioned in the West. It's a bit too nice to mention if you want to paint these people as monsters...The greater jihad is the struggle ALL Muslems must endure to be better people and better Muslems. The inner struggle to resist the bad things of the world and live a life of virtue, honor, and trust.
Here's the thing that the propaganda doesn't mention. Under Islamic rule, Christians and Jews were still allowed to practice their own religion. Still allowed to be productive members of society. Allowed to own businesses and have their own churches and synogogues. Were allowed to make pilgrimages to their holy sites. Historically, the Muslems were really good at this and the payments the christians and jews made was a small tax and being barred from serving in the military. In almost ALL cases they were not forced to convert. Hardly the case when it came to Christians and Jews dealing with Muslems...
I do know that Israel is on Muslem ground. That's the problem. That's why we have seen such a rise in radical Islam since the failure of secular Islam to take Israel back. They stayed back and let the "western secular" way of doing things happen and they failed.(Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq) All took on western methods of education, administration, and military operations...and they failed. The Islamists were watching all along waiting for these secular Muslems to bring resolution to the problem. Since they have not been able to bring satisfactory resolution, the Islamists started to take the reins. We are seeing the fruits of that labor.
Your description of how Iraq went is quite shallow and it is not quite how it all went down. Our military posture was too aggressive and administration of "rebuilding" the country was completely insufficient. Believe it or not, but a lot of Iraqi's were killed because we simply were not prepared...that tends to build hatred when a family member is killed for no apparent reason in your eyes. By the time I left there last year JAM, AQI, JRTN, AAS, and several other variants were all working together...whereas from 2004-2009 they were trying to instigate a civil war and kill one another. We can go further on Iraq in another thread, but it is not a good example to use in this case.
I don't think you have to be a radical muslem to want to kill an occupier on ones own land. If ANY foriegn army were doing patrols on MY block I would surely try everything in my power to make them go away including trying to kill them. I don't care why they're here...I would resist.
It IS radical Islam that is the problem on the Muslem side. That's what we need to address. It would be much easier to accomplish this if we didn't give them reason to hate our guts...We do that plenty.
There is a great feeling of humiliation throughout the Muslem world. This radical Islam is a manifestation of it.
It's not radical Islam that believes that occupied Muslem ground needs to be recaptured, the writings are in the Hadith are clear about that matter and even secular Muslems are pretty set on recovering that ground. You mentioned this is "jihad". Jihad means "to struggle". Do you understand the steps that must be taken for a legitimate lesser jihad to be called? That's right, lesser jihad, there are two of them. The greater jihad is hardly mentioned in the West. It's a bit too nice to mention if you want to paint these people as monsters...The greater jihad is the struggle ALL Muslems must endure to be better people and better Muslems. The inner struggle to resist the bad things of the world and live a life of virtue, honor, and trust.
Here's the thing that the propaganda doesn't mention. Under Islamic rule, Christians and Jews were still allowed to practice their own religion. Still allowed to be productive members of society. Allowed to own businesses and have their own churches and synogogues. Were allowed to make pilgrimages to their holy sites. Historically, the Muslems were really good at this and the payments the christians and jews made was a small tax and being barred from serving in the military. In almost ALL cases they were not forced to convert. Hardly the case when it came to Christians and Jews dealing with Muslems...
I do know that Israel is on Muslem ground. That's the problem. That's why we have seen such a rise in radical Islam since the failure of secular Islam to take Israel back. They stayed back and let the "western secular" way of doing things happen and they failed.(Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq) All took on western methods of education, administration, and military operations...and they failed. The Islamists were watching all along waiting for these secular Muslems to bring resolution to the problem. Since they have not been able to bring satisfactory resolution, the Islamists started to take the reins. We are seeing the fruits of that labor.
Your description of how Iraq went is quite shallow and it is not quite how it all went down. Our military posture was too aggressive and administration of "rebuilding" the country was completely insufficient. Believe it or not, but a lot of Iraqi's were killed because we simply were not prepared...that tends to build hatred when a family member is killed for no apparent reason in your eyes. By the time I left there last year JAM, AQI, JRTN, AAS, and several other variants were all working together...whereas from 2004-2009 they were trying to instigate a civil war and kill one another. We can go further on Iraq in another thread, but it is not a good example to use in this case.
I don't think you have to be a radical muslem to want to kill an occupier on ones own land. If ANY foriegn army were doing patrols on MY block I would surely try everything in my power to make them go away including trying to kill them. I don't care why they're here...I would resist.
It IS radical Islam that is the problem on the Muslem side. That's what we need to address. It would be much easier to accomplish this if we didn't give them reason to hate our guts...We do that plenty.
brinktk
Active member
Also, "worldwide caliphate" is overplayed. Islam hasn't had a Caliphate for some time and even when they did, more often than not, it was in dispute between the different factions.
It would be no different if it was in existence today. "worldwide caliphate" is a fancy name that drags ALL of Islam into the shadow these nutjobs cast. Buzzwords don't impress me, and they shouldn't impress you either.
It would be no different if it was in existence today. "worldwide caliphate" is a fancy name that drags ALL of Islam into the shadow these nutjobs cast. Buzzwords don't impress me, and they shouldn't impress you either.