Is America a secular soceity?
Wow, guys..... the new forum lookes slick! (I just took the chance of saying that in my first new post on this forum 
Anyway, back to your question Phoenix. I my opinion the USA is pretty far from being a secular state. It isn't that you have priests on Capitol Hill making the rules. But try and note how many times you hear: "God bless..." , "so help me God", "as God is my witness", "the Lord.... " and so forth. On so many occasions public debates get pulled into biblical sphere's and look at the influence the Christian lobby has. Even the new president says His name in his oath for office.
In short, I say the the US is definately not secular.
Anyway, back to your question Phoenix. I my opinion the USA is pretty far from being a secular state. It isn't that you have priests on Capitol Hill making the rules. But try and note how many times you hear: "God bless..." , "so help me God", "as God is my witness", "the Lord.... " and so forth. On so many occasions public debates get pulled into biblical sphere's and look at the influence the Christian lobby has. Even the new president says His name in his oath for office.
In short, I say the the US is definately not secular.
phoenix80
Banned
You are speaking like that doesnt happen in your own country where a priest or a religious figure does official ceremonies for your king or queen!
IMO, The US is a secular state where church is not forced upon the citizens of the country!
And remember that America's founding fathers fled Europe from religious suppression and they went there for religious freedom.
Any how, IMO, The US is a secular state (may not be a secular society) but in terms of govt it is a secular one!
good source for books on the issue
http://www.wallbuilders.com/
IMO, The US is a secular state where church is not forced upon the citizens of the country!
And remember that America's founding fathers fled Europe from religious suppression and they went there for religious freedom.
Any how, IMO, The US is a secular state (may not be a secular society) but in terms of govt it is a secular one!
good source for books on the issue
http://www.wallbuilders.com/
bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
Ahhh, the myth dies hard does it not. Only a very small percentage of immigrants to the American continent were seeking religious freedom but I shall digress as there is no point in preaching to a closed mind.phoenix80 said:
Of course the US is a secular society. All societies which lack a religious police force (KSA) and their laws are based not on religious principle but rather liberal thought are secular. Your question seemed more like a chance to bait than to debate Pho.
Oh please..... I don't know a western society where the Bible has such an impact as in the US. Oh sure we have priest performing rituals and ceremonies. But comparing Bush's oath on the bible and and a priest saying "in the power invested in me I call you man and wife" they differ! But I'll go along with Bulldog since I know that nothing that I say will alter your mind in the least. (But I reckon you think the same of me)
p.s. I watched a documentary of Tom Friedman called "Does Europe hate America". It was funny to hear so many Europeans talk about the US as being non-secular and his genuine surprise at this shared view. If you can, you should see it at one time. I
p.s. I watched a documentary of Tom Friedman called "Does Europe hate America". It was funny to hear so many Europeans talk about the US as being non-secular and his genuine surprise at this shared view. If you can, you should see it at one time. I
Missileer
Active member
I just lost my post somewhere in the ether so I'll give it one more try.
America is not now nor has it ever been a secular society. American Government has become secular. Until about the 1950s, immigrants have brought their beliefs and values with them without interference. Early immigrants who worked hard enough to get themselves and their families to America frowned upon those who refused assimilate and earn a living. Religion takes a back seat to supporting your family for a while but is never forgotten. Even though America was and still is mostly Christian, every family was free to worship their own way without interference. This worked well until some minority groups were convinced by people in the legal field that they were being discriminated against by the majority. Legal groups subverted the Constitution by changing the intent of the founding fathers to suit their own interpretation. Rights were bestowed and taken until assimilation was no longer necessary. America became divided into many small groups who constantly fought against each other instead of the united nation it once was.
As a result of bad Government policy and supposed advocate groups such as the ACLU, welfare programs became bloated with 4th and 5th generations of dependants. When hope for a better life is quashed, religion becomes less important and politicians are more important to their way of life. After the will to fight for religious rights is lost by the people, then the right to worship in their own way is lost.
America is not now nor has it ever been a secular society. American Government has become secular. Until about the 1950s, immigrants have brought their beliefs and values with them without interference. Early immigrants who worked hard enough to get themselves and their families to America frowned upon those who refused assimilate and earn a living. Religion takes a back seat to supporting your family for a while but is never forgotten. Even though America was and still is mostly Christian, every family was free to worship their own way without interference. This worked well until some minority groups were convinced by people in the legal field that they were being discriminated against by the majority. Legal groups subverted the Constitution by changing the intent of the founding fathers to suit their own interpretation. Rights were bestowed and taken until assimilation was no longer necessary. America became divided into many small groups who constantly fought against each other instead of the united nation it once was.
As a result of bad Government policy and supposed advocate groups such as the ACLU, welfare programs became bloated with 4th and 5th generations of dependants. When hope for a better life is quashed, religion becomes less important and politicians are more important to their way of life. After the will to fight for religious rights is lost by the people, then the right to worship in their own way is lost.
Missileer
Active member
bulldogg said:
You might have read that I gave a pretty general time frame from the pilgrims to the 1950s but in no way am I saying there was an immediate change at that time. I think the knee of change in personal freedoms, especially religion, became sharper after the 1950s. Maybe it was the gradual control of institutions such as education by the Government becoming more aggressive.
Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
No cotton picken way!
America is not now nor has it ever been secular. Our forefathers came to this country to escape religious persecution and that has not changed all that much in modern times. I will grant you that the majority of the people coming to the United States are now coming for economic reasons, but a large portion of the arrivals ARE running from the religious fanatics in their own homelands.
What has changed is the fact that a significant block of committed individuals has decided to attack anything that smacks of a government supported or state sanctioned religion. That doesn't mean that the majority of the American people are in any way secular. As a matter of fact, there has been a resurgence of religious fervor over the last 10 years or so. If you follow news events rather closely, you will quickly realise that the number of people who are actively involved in these attacks on our religious freedoms are a very very small minority. Where their power comes in is the fact that their attacks are funded, organized and run with a military precision that has to be seen to be believed. This gives the illusion that America has become secular and nothing is further from the truth.
Within my own hometown, there are so many churches, synogogues, etc. that it is referred to as the town of churches. We even have one round church where they say the devil can not corner you no matter how hard he tries.
Within the last three years, eight new houses of worship have been built and not one single church has closed it's doors.
America is not now nor has it ever been secular. Our forefathers came to this country to escape religious persecution and that has not changed all that much in modern times. I will grant you that the majority of the people coming to the United States are now coming for economic reasons, but a large portion of the arrivals ARE running from the religious fanatics in their own homelands.
What has changed is the fact that a significant block of committed individuals has decided to attack anything that smacks of a government supported or state sanctioned religion. That doesn't mean that the majority of the American people are in any way secular. As a matter of fact, there has been a resurgence of religious fervor over the last 10 years or so. If you follow news events rather closely, you will quickly realise that the number of people who are actively involved in these attacks on our religious freedoms are a very very small minority. Where their power comes in is the fact that their attacks are funded, organized and run with a military precision that has to be seen to be believed. This gives the illusion that America has become secular and nothing is further from the truth.
Within my own hometown, there are so many churches, synogogues, etc. that it is referred to as the town of churches. We even have one round church where they say the devil can not corner you no matter how hard he tries.
Within the last three years, eight new houses of worship have been built and not one single church has closed it's doors.
bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
And there we have it, just as my grandpa told me when I was a kid - "If you ever want to lose a friend just strike up a conversation about money, politics or religion."
I think the point of contention is the definition of a secular vs religious society. I would argue the former is one which is not a theocracy or one whose laws are a direct derivation from a religious source. Whereas the latter is one in which the citizens are governed by a system of laws and a government which is under direct influence or guidance from a religious source.
I think the point of contention is the definition of a secular vs religious society. I would argue the former is one which is not a theocracy or one whose laws are a direct derivation from a religious source. Whereas the latter is one in which the citizens are governed by a system of laws and a government which is under direct influence or guidance from a religious source.
Missileer
Active member
bulldogg said:
Smart Grandpa but he probably didn't have a computer.
bulldogg said:
I think you're confusing society with Government. I consider a secular society to be one which is worldly rather than spiritual. One in which religion would have no meaning in everyday life. Most ministers would call it a heathen society but you and I know that's not true.
bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
Ok, I see your definition. I view a government as being a defining characteristic of a society especially one that is democratically elected no matter how specious the system is in actual practice. I think it represents a microcosm of the group as a whole as it is chosen to represent them and also people choose the government they have either through action and sacrifice (to gain a democracy) or through their compliance and inaction (autocratic forms allowed to exist). I would argue that in the end I hold the people accountable one way or another and hence their government is an accurate representation of their society.
And no, you're right, he did not have a computer, he was much smarter than I.
And no, you're right, he did not have a computer, he was much smarter than I.
Mohmar Deathstrike
Banned
Off Topic but for the record: "Responsability before God and humans" is mentioned in the German Constitution.
localgrizzly
Active member
The USA is a Judeao-Christian society governed by a secular government.
A non-secular government, i.e. a theocracy, cannot exist as a democracy. By definition, a theocracy is governed by the clerics of a particular religious group or order, and cannot be democratic simply because democracy is antithetical to theocracy.
India is primarily a Hindu society, but it's governent is secular as well. There are only a small handful of non-secular governments in the world, and they exist primarily in Buddhist and Muslim countries.
A non-secular government, i.e. a theocracy, cannot exist as a democracy. By definition, a theocracy is governed by the clerics of a particular religious group or order, and cannot be democratic simply because democracy is antithetical to theocracy.
India is primarily a Hindu society, but it's governent is secular as well. There are only a small handful of non-secular governments in the world, and they exist primarily in Buddhist and Muslim countries.
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Mohmar Deathstrike
Banned
localgrizzly said:
I'm glad you mentioned the word I misquoted in capital letters: Many westernes want to "Free Tibet" and support the Dalai Lama who propages a message of compassion, love and all sorts of good shit Mod edit: :cens: . But...what would become of Tibet if China granted it independance? Would the Dalai Lama not come back and claim his seat as ruler of Tibet? Would Tibet be any more "free" than it is now?
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bulldogg
Milforum's Bouncer
As much as it pains me, he actually does have a point if you were to assume that a modern Tibet under the Dalai Lama were to follow the course of its history before assimilation and annexation by the PRC. It was a fuedal system with slavery and despotism under the previous traditional leaders. I am NOT saying I support PRC's actions or treatment of Tibetans. I think under either system these really pleasant, yet simple, folk get screwed. They are in much the same plight as the Kurds but owing to the peaceful ways of the Buddha they follow they do not participate in or advocate resistance to their rulers no matter who they are.
Mohmar Deathstrike
Banned
Ted said:
I'm not saying Chinese rule is a lot less despotic (Frankly, I can't tell), I just wanted to tell people that celebrities and others supporting the Dalai Lama may be a little bit misguided when it comes to questioning (or rather, not questioning) his motives.
Well, we will never know what his true motives or intentions are. But the misguidedness... sure that will happen! I reckon Richard Gere has somewhat of a over-romanticised image of the whole affair. But I give the Dalai Lama a bit more credit then that of a slave holding despot.
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
Well, I have a simple answer.
The United States of America was founded as a nation with it's rule, laws, and customs derived from those of Christan Religon. Part of America's founding is that the State shall not create a State Religon like what England did. And that the citizens of the United States of America have the legal right to practice their religon in peace and not fear those from being ostersize by their fellow citizens.
Is America a secular soceity?
No, America is a Christan Nation with a value and oath to protect those that are not Christan.
The United States of America was founded as a nation with it's rule, laws, and customs derived from those of Christan Religon. Part of America's founding is that the State shall not create a State Religon like what England did. And that the citizens of the United States of America have the legal right to practice their religon in peace and not fear those from being ostersize by their fellow citizens.
Is America a secular soceity?
No, America is a Christan Nation with a value and oath to protect those that are not Christan.