Iraq resolution passes House

[Marinerhodes]

I agree with the first part. it should have had teeth. I think the reason it didnt is that there are still a few Democrats in Congress whom are scared to be labeled 'anti-American, anti-troop' by the GOP. They are chicken, so they simply bend over. Worms have more backbone. Its maddening.

It certainly demoralizes me, but I think the troops in Iraq have much more to worry about then a bunch of spineless congressmen in Washington. For example, not getting killed. I think seeing your friends killed and wounded is much more demoralizing than politics.

Send massive reinforcements might work (but you'd need at least 300000). Unfortunately such numbers simply don't exist. The military is stretched to its breaking point. There are only 3 ways to bolster the troop numbers. A) Convince the allies to send troops, B) Move forces from other areas to Iraq C) reintroduce the draft.

A) Will never happen, they few allies we have left are LEAVING IRAQ.
B) This would destabilize the rest of the world.
C) Would gaurentee that the GOP wouldn't win a single election ever again.

There there is no real way to bolster the troops in the way thats needed.

I think you are missing the point to an extent. Ever have Mom and Dad dissapointed in you? Take that feeling and magnify it by 10,000 percent. That is what it feels like when you have Leaders of the Nation saying we don't want to be in Iraq. Basically they are saying all the deaths and injuries (On both sides of the war From 9/11 to present) have been a waste because it is costing too much money.

I just wish we could institute a gag order on all media regarding (however obliquely) the war and future wars. That in and of itself would take away about 75% of any political issues regarding war.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for the freedom of speech, but for pete's sake. When you have politicians playing to the media. . . Just look back at some of the politicians and their almost 180 view and policies from 2000 - present. Almost all can be laid at the feet of the media. What a concept. . . But keep in mind how many were all set to go to war in the first place.

I don't think I can stomach much more of this topic so I will have to leave it be.

MMarsh you state "we" and "our" and "us" over and over.

It is a waste of our tax dollars. Then again, its a drop in the bucket compared to what this war has cost us.

Will you clarify this? Do you pay taxes in the US? I am in the military, I pay the same taxes everyone else in the US pays. So how about asking the opinion of those that not only pay taxes but also pay by putting their life on the line? F**k the politicians. Ask the troops.

 

[bjackson911]

^^^^^^^Well said.

 

[mmarsh]

MarinerRhodes

I am a US taxpayer, and as a US Taxpayer I am less concerned by the money wasted aspect (though not unconcerned) than I am about the lives wasted/shattered aspect. I can understand how cheap you must feel when politicans are saying the war costs too much. I agree thats rather insensitive, but Politics is rarely very 'nice'. Thats why I usually take a bath after discussions like these. As for asking the troops, the only expression of dissatisfaction I ever got within my own personal circle of friends in the miltary was with the WH and in particular Donald Rumsfeld. I never heard about any praise nor complaints about anti-war stance. I would best describe it as indifference, although I admit my unit of measure was far to small (and perhaps too dated) to at all accurate. I generally don't ask them what going on over there with them. I view that as private personal matter. Neither of my Grandfathers ever liked to talk about WWII either.

I think where you are perhaps mistaken (or perhaps take it too personally) is that the criticism against the war is not directed at the troops. Let me put into simpler terms to see if you better understand my point of view.

I work for a international group. If we have a bad year and we get yelled at by the stockholders about it, I don't take the criticism personally as a reflexion at me, because I know I am doing my job the best that can be expected. The criticism is directed at the CEO and the board of directors because they are responsible for the running of the company. And to be honest, some of that criticism is not unfounded. Its better to say it and hope in leads to some changes, then to say nothing. Its the same thing with the war.

I simply think we (civilians), shouldn't keep quiet about how the government runs its business including war. Thats is on the road to totalitarism. As for the media. I agree that the media sensationizes and trivializes the war. But on the other hand, without the media incidents like Haditha, Abu Grabib, Mai-Lai would have been quietly buried, and thats not good either. I guess it's a fine line about what is and isn't appropriate.

BJackson

1. If we had enough troops, yes I would support giving this more time although not indefitaly. I would even support it now, if someone would propose I plan I though would work.

2. No offense taken. The answer is because I am about to become 35, and I can already feel the bones creaking. I did ask a couple of people here about a year ago the feasibility of me joining, the answer I got was "possible, but not recommended". It sounded like good advice. I don't think it would be in the Army's interest or in mine, but I will always regret I didn't join when I was younger.

I guess thats lesson to you 20-somethings. If you decide to do something, do it when your are young. Dont be an lazy ass like I was.

 

[bjackson911]

MMarsh, I am 33 and I qualified for the Ranger Contract and took it. You can do it if you set your mind to it. But I do understand your reservations, I have to push through it everyday in preperations.

It is good to hear that at the least you believe that it is a noble cause.

 

[Gator]

MMarsh, I am 33 and I qualified for the Ranger Contract and took it. You can do it if you set your mind to it. But I do understand your reservations, I have to push through it everyday in preperations.

It is good to hear that at the least you believe that it is a noble cause.

Best not to count your chickens before they hatch, you have not done anything in the Military yet except sign a contract with the Military.

 

[mmarsh]

MarinerRhodes brought this up, but I actually have one more idea for Iraq that *might* work.

Split Iraq up.

Iraq was a crude designation for an area invented by the British in the 1930's. The truth is people in Iraq identity themselves more as Shia and Sunnis than 'Iraqi'. So I say carve Iraq into 3 separate areas one for each ethnic group and build a very large wall between the two groups.

You would have to work out in detail what to do with the oil, water, Baghdad, and the Turkey-Kurd question, but it might at least it will stop the Shia and Sunnis from killing each other. (And hopefully us as well, but I wouldn't count on that).

At least we could then withdraw from Iraq feeling a little better with ourselves.

 

[Gator]

Turkey has already answered the question regarding an independent Kurdistan, Turkey does not want to allow an independent Kurdistan.

The Sunnis have also said that Iraq split up leaves them without much Oil.

 

[mmarsh]

Turkey has already answered the question regarding an independent Kurdistan, Turkey does not want to allow an independent Kurdistan.

The Sunnis have also said that Iraq split up leaves them without much Oil.

I know both points.

1. Ankara is not against to a Kurish State per se. They are afraid that the Kurds who live in Turkey would split off to join the new Kurdish State. Obviously Washington would have to make a very sweet deal for Ankara and the Kurds to take such a chance. Very Difficult I grant you, but not impossible.

2. The Sunni still have not accepted the fact that they arn't kings*** anymore. They are still looking for a way to Lord over the other ethnics groups of Iraq the way Saddam did. Their territory is not in the oilfields. Had they wanted to hang on to the oil they probably should have treated the Shiite better when Saddam was in charge. Still, there ways of making money other than oil. Technology for example. It would take time to build the infrastructure, but it could be done. I suppose the US and Saudi Arabia would pitch them a hand in future endeavors.

 

[Gator]

I know both points.

1. Ankara is not against to a Kurish State per se. They are afraid that the Kurds who live in Turkey would split off to join the new Kurdish State. Obviously Washington would have to make a very sweet deal for Ankara and the Kurds to take such a chance. Difficult, but not impossible.

2. The Sunni still have not accepted the fact that they arn't kings*** anymore. They are still looking for a way to Lord over the other ethnics groups of Iraq the way Saddam did. Their territory is not in the oilfields. Had they wanted to hang on to the oil they probably should have treated the Shiite better when Saddam was in charge. Still, there ways of making money other than oil. Technology for example. It would take time to build the infrastructure, but it could be done. I suppose the US and Saudi Arabia would pitch them a hand in future endeavors.

I remember when President Bush tired to bribe the Turks to get his way before the War, and the Turks refused.

Sunnis have a hard time accepting anything they do not like, it is why they are killing so many people in Iraq.
Sure Saudi Arabia can help, Saudi was floating the idea of reenforcing the Sunnis in Iraq.
Iran reenforcing the Shia and Saudi Arabia reenforcing the Sunni does not play out well from an American standpoint if you ask me.

 

[bulldogg]

Best not to count your chickens before they hatch, you have not done anything in the Military yet except sign a contract with the Military.

Nice bit of encouragement there... and you wonder why you got the title you have. Drive on bro and remember what I told you about the negative comments.

 

[mmarsh]

Gator

Good Points Sir.

It might not work, I grant you that. But its an avenue worth pursuing much more than the status quo right now. Perhaps when we finally get regime change in Washington, the Turks will be more willing to trust us again. One can always hope.

As for the Saudis and Iran, no matter what happens in the conclusion with Iraq there is going to be some stink rubbing off on us. Its inevitable, the question is how much do we have to live with?

 

[Missileer]

MMarsh, I am 33 and I qualified for the Ranger Contract and took it. You can do it if you set your mind to it. But I do understand your reservations, I have to push through it everyday in preperations.

It is good to hear that at the least you believe that it is a noble cause.

I don't remember any young drill instructors when I was in basic training. They kept up with and passed us on any run, march, PT course. I remember thinking if old men in their 30's and 40's could do it, I would not be seen lagging behind. Most were combat veterans from WWII and Korea. If an 18 year old was in WWII, he was late thirties at best in 1962.

 

[bjackson911]

Best not to count your chickens before they hatch, you have not done anything in the Military yet except sign a contract with the Military.

Hey Gator,

I don't think that I claimed anything that was not true I simply stated that I was doing instead of talking about doing. Your right I havn't done anything yet as I indicated in my post what exactly is your point?

 

[Gator]

Hey Gator,

I don't think that I claimed anything that was not true I simply stated that I was doing instead of talking about doing. Your right I havn't done anything yet as I indicated in my post what exactly is your point?

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I simply stated that I was doing instead of talking about doing.

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Your right I havn't done anything yet as I indicated in my post

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what exactly is your point?

You make it though Basic and AIT and you will be doing and not talking about doing, you make it through Ranger School and that Contract you signed will have all worked out the way you liked.
You will also find out real soon that that no matter how badly you want something, in the real World, in the World occupied by the US Military, it is not all mind over matter. In the Military you can really, really want something, and it still does not happen the way you would have liked.
In my own opinion it will be a lot easier if you start with step one, which is Basic and AIT.

-

 

[Padre]

I speak English, so can someone help me with what the above post translates into when put into English?

MarinerRhodes brought this up, but I actually have one more idea for Iraq that *might* work.

Split Iraq up.

Iraq was a crude designation for an area invented by the British in the 1930's. The truth is people in Iraq identity themselves more as Shia and Sunnis than 'Iraqi'. So I say carve Iraq into 3 separate areas one for each ethnic group and build a very large wall between the two groups.

You would have to work out in detail what to do with the oil, water, Baghdad, and the Turkey-Kurd question, but it might at least it will stop the Shia and Sunnis from killing each other. (And hopefully us as well, but I wouldn't count on that).

At least we could then withdraw from Iraq feeling a little better with ourselves.

I'm with you on this one. I'm a convert to the 3 nation solution to Iraq (as stated in much older posts). They should start talks on establishing three new countries and work out the boundaries. It will be a huge headache for somebody - what a great legacy for Condi if she could be the one to achieve it. The new countries that came out of the old Soviet Union - albeit with continuing challenges - nevertheless offer an example of how it can work. I just can't see the Sunnis, Shii's and Kurds getting it together in the next decade.

 

[bulldogg]

Its sour grapes from an angry old man Padre, nothing more, nothing less. I'd say signing a contract and joining the military is doing something more than just running your fingers on a keyboard eh? Its doing a lot more than most are "doing" these days... its a sacrifice few can understand. My brother isn't just some 18-19 year old kid. He's 33, enlisting in a combat arm, giving up a thriving business to serve.

Gator, I salute you.

 

[mmarsh]

I speak English, so can someone help me with what the above post translates into when put into English?


I'm with you on this one. I'm a convert to the 3 nation solution to Iraq (as stated in much older posts). They should start talks on establishing three new countries and work out the boundaries. It will be a huge headache for somebody - what a great legacy for Condi if she could be the one to achieve it. The new countries that came out of the old Soviet Union - albeit with continuing challenges - nevertheless offer an example of how it can work. I just can't see the Sunnis, Shii's and Kurds getting it together in the next decade.

If it can work, GATOR's points are completely valid.

 

[bulldogg]

MMarsh you illiterate sod, THAT wasn't the "above post".

 

[bjackson911]

Gator, I guess you are missing the point. If you want to put someone down for not doing enough yet then why not post to mmarsh to stop saying he would do if? I think my point is valid and I believe that you just want to get into a pissing contest and I have no time to waist on you. Sorry but your point if you want to call it that holds no water with me.

Ohh and Bulldogg is my Hero. That should give you something to condem me about instead of the act of joining the Army.

 

[Gator]

Gator, I guess you are missing the point. If you want to put someone down for not doing enough yet then why not post to mmarsh to stop saying he would do if? I think my point is valid and I believe that you just want to get into a pissing contest and I have no time to waist on you. Sorry but your point if you want to call it that holds no water with me.

Ohh and Bulldogg is my Hero. That should give you something to condem me about instead of the act of joining the Army.

I'm not out to condemn you, and I would like to point out that you were the one, at least in my opinion, who tossed it up in mmarsh's face that he was not doing what you have done.... which is only, at this point in time, sign a piece of paper.
It just struck me as funny that you seemed to count yourself in a fraternity that you do not yet belong.

As for the people you view as a "Hero".... you are of course free to pick your own hero's on this Earth, and set your own threshold as to what makes and what does not make someone a "Hero".
Perhaps the Poster you mention is happy to be listed as a "Hero" on the Internet.
And, I will point out that I believe it is why, and the only reason why you are making such a big deal of this issue.
Perhaps your hate of me will keep you warm in Basic Training, keep you sharp, help keep you awake...... although it may be best to at least try and save a little room for the things the US Military would like you to learn.