I donno but why doesn't anyone take the conflict between India and Pakistan seriously over Kashmir.Is it because you ppl dont have much information about it or is it because your government and news channels try to suppress it.I'm from India and yes it is a dead serious issue affecting all of us here.We have fought 3 wars with pakistan in the past 50 years [all of which we won] .I mean yeah you ppl talk as if we dont exist at all.80,000 people have been killed so far in kashmir in the past 50 years most of them kashmiri hindu pandits by terrorists supported by pakistan.I would love to discuss more on this topic if anyone could reply that is.Please dont lock this post as you did to this topic http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4184
India's Kashmir Conflict
I actually had a discussion with my friend the other night about this. We were talking of major hotspots around the globe that show the potential for a global conflict. We are borderline in so many regions and the Inda/Pakistan affair is one of them. Especially since that entire region has become a Nuclear Power. I believe special attention should be paid to help resolve the conflicts there. Unfortunately it has seemed to always recieve "back burner" attention. I have to admit my knowledge in that particular conflict is rather limited but learning more is what I am always about. The problem is we cannot ignore the multitdue of regional conflicts that are taking place around the world, they all have the potential to effect the national security of many nations worldwide.
Chocobo_Blitzer
Active member
Good call, this topic is rarely talked about. I know very little about it, perhaps you could brief me (or us) the current situation? This might be a pretty short-sighted view, but considering how anti-western Pakistan is (their civilian populous, not their government) if war broke out, it would be hard for me not to root for India.
When India became independent in 1947 most of the princely states that constitue India today came together to form a nation except a few like Kashmir , Goa and Hyderabad.Hyderabad were eventually won over [ in a like a day or so lmao ] and the portugese eventually left Goa in 1960 after huge revolutions against them.
Kashmir on the other hand was ruled by a king named HariSingh who refused to join India and was attacked by Pakistan [small paki nation just wants to increase in size, never can come close to India ] .The king then asked for help to India , we did so and flushed the pakis out of Kashmir and thus kashmir was inducted into India [ which was necessary as the pakis would keep attacking them without the presence of Indian military ].
Well the pakis just wont accept the fact that cudn't ever have kashmir and kept attacking it and India defeating them in two consecutive wars [ piss easy ]...a third one was recently fought in Kargil in 1998 when the paki troops along with jehadi separatists crossed the ceasefire line and came upto Kargil [ a district in kashmir valley ] ....they were flushed out too back upto the LOC [line of control ] .Now you must note that inspite of the ceasefire the pakistani troops supported the jehadi islamic terrorists to encroach upon our territory.
there's more to talk but it would never end..
Now the problem facing us is the jehadi "anti-indian" islamic terrorists operate from a region known as PoK [ Pakistan occupied Kashmir ].All the terrorist camps are situated here [ which the USA of course knows from satellite images :d ] and they have launched guerrilla warfare against the Indian Army ..the same scenario what the US army is facing in Iraq. These cowards can't defeat an army and so they keep attacking religious sites,market places etc. etc.killing thousands of "INNOCENT" civilians .The indian airforce can destroy these "pakistan supported" terrorist camps in PoK in like a matter of days but won't do it [ i think cos of the risk of a full fledged war as pakistan claims that any attack on PoK which they claim to be their territory which isn't true actually will result in a war ] .Now you might ask why does India doesnt want a war with pakistan ...one reason is because india is emerging as a powerful economic power obviously a war would destroy all that......and also due to USA backing pakistan [ due to US interests in Afghanistan which borders Pakistan ] ......theres a shitload more i can talk bout but i think this post is too long...i'll post as we discuss...
Disclaimer [lmao]:..These are my views and do not reflect the views of the Indian ppl in general.....
Kashmir on the other hand was ruled by a king named HariSingh who refused to join India and was attacked by Pakistan [small paki nation just wants to increase in size, never can come close to India ] .The king then asked for help to India , we did so and flushed the pakis out of Kashmir and thus kashmir was inducted into India [ which was necessary as the pakis would keep attacking them without the presence of Indian military ].
Well the pakis just wont accept the fact that cudn't ever have kashmir and kept attacking it and India defeating them in two consecutive wars [ piss easy ]...a third one was recently fought in Kargil in 1998 when the paki troops along with jehadi separatists crossed the ceasefire line and came upto Kargil [ a district in kashmir valley ] ....they were flushed out too back upto the LOC [line of control ] .Now you must note that inspite of the ceasefire the pakistani troops supported the jehadi islamic terrorists to encroach upon our territory.
there's more to talk but it would never end..
Now the problem facing us is the jehadi "anti-indian" islamic terrorists operate from a region known as PoK [ Pakistan occupied Kashmir ].All the terrorist camps are situated here [ which the USA of course knows from satellite images :d ] and they have launched guerrilla warfare against the Indian Army ..the same scenario what the US army is facing in Iraq. These cowards can't defeat an army and so they keep attacking religious sites,market places etc. etc.killing thousands of "INNOCENT" civilians .The indian airforce can destroy these "pakistan supported" terrorist camps in PoK in like a matter of days but won't do it [ i think cos of the risk of a full fledged war as pakistan claims that any attack on PoK which they claim to be their territory which isn't true actually will result in a war ] .Now you might ask why does India doesnt want a war with pakistan ...one reason is because india is emerging as a powerful economic power obviously a war would destroy all that......and also due to USA backing pakistan [ due to US interests in Afghanistan which borders Pakistan ] ......theres a shitload more i can talk bout but i think this post is too long...i'll post as we discuss...
Disclaimer [lmao]:..These are my views and do not reflect the views of the Indian ppl in general.....
Lupos
Active member
I know I have not heard much about India since about early 2000. I remember seeing many attacks by Islamic guerillas in Indian villages. Please excuse us for siding with Pakistan at the moment (not in the conflict between the two of you) but we do need Islamic allies.
This story sounds much like Isreal and Palestine. Post WWII, jews begin moving back to Jerusalem. Palestinians refuse to live with the Jews. Palestinians begin publicly slaughtering Jews in town halls, the UN takes action and splits Palestine in half. Palestine is outraged and starts recieving support from Iraq, Egypt, Iran and Syria. The Isrealis fight all of their armies off alone with merely weapons and ammo from western countries. The war ends but tension and terrorism continues to today.
It irritates me when things like this happen. Those terrorist on the India/Pakistan border are just like the Palestinian terrorist. People think that the Palestinians are getting kicked out, but from what I remember they were suposed to leave decades ago when Isreal defeated them all.
We have not seen much on the India/Pakistan tension because the media wants to milk Iraq for all it is worth to try to get Bush kicked out. Do not take us wrong, we just do not see much because we are now at war with two other countries. Not to mention we have an election coming up.
This story sounds much like Isreal and Palestine. Post WWII, jews begin moving back to Jerusalem. Palestinians refuse to live with the Jews. Palestinians begin publicly slaughtering Jews in town halls, the UN takes action and splits Palestine in half. Palestine is outraged and starts recieving support from Iraq, Egypt, Iran and Syria. The Isrealis fight all of their armies off alone with merely weapons and ammo from western countries. The war ends but tension and terrorism continues to today.
It irritates me when things like this happen. Those terrorist on the India/Pakistan border are just like the Palestinian terrorist. People think that the Palestinians are getting kicked out, but from what I remember they were suposed to leave decades ago when Isreal defeated them all.
We have not seen much on the India/Pakistan tension because the media wants to milk Iraq for all it is worth to try to get Bush kicked out. Do not take us wrong, we just do not see much because we are now at war with two other countries. Not to mention we have an election coming up.
Chocobo_Blitzer
Active member
I don't see how US backing Pakistan on the war on terror could effect a Pakistan-Indian war? If it's the thought that America would side with military force, that would be wrong. We would probably support Pakistan, but in a very hollow way. We would probably try our best to end the conflict ASAP, merely to get Pakistan's attention back on fighting terror.
I think USA backing any country makes that country 100 times stronger than what it would normally be.And I know USA does that cos it has its personal interests in Pakistan.
Pakitsan was a better candidate to attack than Iraq was.Pakistan is absolutely a mess , majority of the ppl there are anti-western and controlled by radical Islamic groups.Osama Bin Laden is most probably hiding in pakistan too .And now they have the nukes too , imagine if these weapons fell into the hands of thse Islamic radical groups.The terrorist groups operating in kasmir like Lashkae-E-Toiba, Jaish-E-Mohammed have big offices situated in islamabad the capital of Pakistan, still the paki goverment keeps denying it.
I suggest whoever is interested in this topic read this
http://pak-terror.freeservers.com/webarticle38.htm
Also read this -
Pakitsan was a better candidate to attack than Iraq was.Pakistan is absolutely a mess , majority of the ppl there are anti-western and controlled by radical Islamic groups.Osama Bin Laden is most probably hiding in pakistan too .And now they have the nukes too , imagine if these weapons fell into the hands of thse Islamic radical groups.The terrorist groups operating in kasmir like Lashkae-E-Toiba, Jaish-E-Mohammed have big offices situated in islamabad the capital of Pakistan, still the paki goverment keeps denying it.
I suggest whoever is interested in this topic read this
http://pak-terror.freeservers.com/webarticle38.htm
Also read this -
Code:
Ethnic Cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits by Pakistan-trained Islamic Fundamentalists
Cradled in the lap of majestic mountains of the Himalayas, Kashmir is the most beautiful place on earth. On visiting the Valley of Kashmir, Jehangir, one of the Mughal emperors, is said to have exclaimed: "If there is paradise anywhere on earth, it is here, it is here, it is here."
And, till very, very recent times it was paradise on earth. But now the paradise has been turned into hell.
Kashmir has a myth and history, language and literature, art and architecture, culture and tradition, and religion and ritual that is distinct, yet similar to the civilization of the Indian subcontinent. In this once happy valley with its peace-loving and crime-free people, Buddhism reached the zenith of its glory, Hinduism extended its philosophical frontiers into Shaivism and Shaktism, and Islam achieved a new meaning and practice in its tradition of Sufism.
But with the emergence of Islamic fundamentalism all over the world, this theo-fascist brand of political philosophy accompanied by hatred, intolerance, and terrorism was pushed into and peddled in the peaceful valley by Pakistan. And now the rapture of birdsong and murmur of gentle streams of yesteryears is replaced by the misery of physical and psychic violence instigated by the terrorists.
This website will show you a glimpse of the history, culture, and the current plight of Kashmiri Pandits. You will understand the goals of the bigoted religious terrorists in Kashmir whose vision of Azadi (independence) is to use religious dogma to exclude women, religious minorities, and secular-minded people from every kind of freedom in social and political life.
After centuries of decimation of our population within Kashmir valley, the 1990 pogrom by Islamic terrorists and their supporters against us was the final act that expelled almost the entire remaining 400,000 strong population of Kashmiri Pandits - something that has unfortunately gone largely unreported in the Western press. These Pandits are at present living as refugees in their own country. While the expelled refugees as well as our worldwide community have not resorted to any form of violent means to regain our territory, we have never accepted this ethnic cleansing as final. We are carrying on a non-violent war through legitimate political means and by using the Internet to disseminate the truth about how Islamic interests have caused the near-extinction of our community in their zeal to convert the valley into the next Afghanistan. This non-violent war will continue until we win back our homeland and the right to live there without being subject to Islamic hegemony. We will also continue to use these non-violent means to ensure that the government of India does not barter our interests away in the process of placating Islamic terrorist groups in Kashmir.Chocobo_Blitzer
Active member
Id like a better definition of "stronger" because I have yet to hear of any strong aid towards Pakistan, other than cooperation in hunting terrorism.
But I have to agree with you, Pakistan was a better candidate to attack than Iraq. Only one problem, Pakistan sided with us. It was a smooth decision on their government's part. Now we must slog slowly and push their government to clean their own mess, which, more than likely will back fire on them and something of a uprising may occur. Like you said, imagine if Islamic radical groups got ahold of those nuclear weapons.
Perhaps it is naive of us to believe Pakistan can convert itself, but because of their alliance, we are now forced to support them. While we make claims that Pakistan is now a strong alley, it might be wishful thinking. We will have to wait and see.
But I have to agree with you, Pakistan was a better candidate to attack than Iraq. Only one problem, Pakistan sided with us. It was a smooth decision on their government's part. Now we must slog slowly and push their government to clean their own mess, which, more than likely will back fire on them and something of a uprising may occur. Like you said, imagine if Islamic radical groups got ahold of those nuclear weapons.
Perhaps it is naive of us to believe Pakistan can convert itself, but because of their alliance, we are now forced to support them. While we make claims that Pakistan is now a strong alley, it might be wishful thinking. We will have to wait and see.
FlyingFrog
Active member
I think Kashmir should be divided in two, one for India one for Pakistan, then problem solved.
You need to GIVE in order to GET.
You need to GIVE in order to GET.
Its already divided into two , but still the paki+satan+is support terrorism
and radical islamic gruoups in their part of the occupied Kashmir who are trained by the PAKISTANI ARMY itself !!.Their ISI [ Inter services intelligence ] was resposible for many bombings in India, now can you imagine a country's secret service to carry out bombings in another ?.. We just call it Inter Services Intelligence , but in fact its a terrorist organisation just like AL QAEDA.Man i just wish if we cud nuke em , waiting on USA to show a green signal ....like how USA 's supporting israel...it makes much easier for israel to carry out bombings in palestine and kill terrorists...we can do the same....we can kill these illiterate unskilled COWARD terrorists in a matter of days.Russia supports us but Russia has no more control over world politics anymore
and radical islamic gruoups in their part of the occupied Kashmir who are trained by the PAKISTANI ARMY itself !!.Their ISI [ Inter services intelligence ] was resposible for many bombings in India, now can you imagine a country's secret service to carry out bombings in another ?.. We just call it Inter Services Intelligence , but in fact its a terrorist organisation just like AL QAEDA.Man i just wish if we cud nuke em , waiting on USA to show a green signal ....like how USA 's supporting israel...it makes much easier for israel to carry out bombings in palestine and kill terrorists...we can do the same....we can kill these illiterate unskilled COWARD terrorists in a matter of days.Russia supports us but Russia has no more control over world politics anymore
03USMC
Active member
Numero Uno: The U.S. is not gonna green light a nuclear strike on Pakistan.
I understand your anger towards the terrorists and the State by which they are supported. Your coralation to Israel is flawed however. They will launch an attack or airstrike of their own and explain later if that is what they feel they need to do. Remember the 80's when they took out the nuclear reacator? Caused some bad blood for awhile. And for the most part the Israelies launch on terrorist organizations or retaliate against them.
You on the other hand are talking about launching WMD's on a Soverigan Nation and Terrorists. Both Countries (India and Pakistan) are considered at the present time to be Allies of the U.S. I don't see any military support coming for etheir in this conflict.
I understand your anger towards the terrorists and the State by which they are supported. Your coralation to Israel is flawed however. They will launch an attack or airstrike of their own and explain later if that is what they feel they need to do. Remember the 80's when they took out the nuclear reacator? Caused some bad blood for awhile. And for the most part the Israelies launch on terrorist organizations or retaliate against them.
You on the other hand are talking about launching WMD's on a Soverigan Nation and Terrorists. Both Countries (India and Pakistan) are considered at the present time to be Allies of the U.S. I don't see any military support coming for etheir in this conflict.
godofthunder9010
Active member
The tension between the Hindus and Muslims in the area is impossible to understate. The honest truth is, Kashmir SHOULD BE an independent country and be left alone by both India and Pakistan, but neither will tolerate such an outcome. Pakistan's excuse appears to be that Kashmir is more Muslim than Hindu. Of course the whole "Muslims go to Pakistan and Bangladesh and Hindus to India" business didn't exactly work of course, so this reasoning doesn't hold up IMO. There's more Muslims scattered across India that there are PEOPLE in Pakistan. The position of India has already been stated by xion of course.
The mutual animosity between the two sides is more than great enough without Kashmir to fight over. Throwing in Kashmir makes the India/Pakistan border one of the scariest places in the world.
I doubt that India would be the first to use nuclear weapons of course. They know fully well that they could easily crush Pakistan in a conventional war. Pakistan knows that India isn't willing to risk a mutual nuclear launch by starting anything of the sort, and they do have a reasonably strong military.
03USMC is right, the United States would not be willing to take sides in any conflict between the two.
One thing I was quite interested in (though it might be off-topic) is this:
The proposed "Center of India Tower'
http://architecture.about.com/library/bltall.htm
http://www.geocities.com/PicketFence/5192/centre_of_india.html
Is this thing REALLY going to be build? Quite impressive if it can be afforded by ... anyone.
The mutual animosity between the two sides is more than great enough without Kashmir to fight over. Throwing in Kashmir makes the India/Pakistan border one of the scariest places in the world.
I doubt that India would be the first to use nuclear weapons of course. They know fully well that they could easily crush Pakistan in a conventional war. Pakistan knows that India isn't willing to risk a mutual nuclear launch by starting anything of the sort, and they do have a reasonably strong military.
03USMC is right, the United States would not be willing to take sides in any conflict between the two.
One thing I was quite interested in (though it might be off-topic) is this:
The proposed "Center of India Tower'
http://architecture.about.com/library/bltall.htm
http://www.geocities.com/PicketFence/5192/centre_of_india.html
Is this thing REALLY going to be build? Quite impressive if it can be afforded by ... anyone.
I know its a very complicated issue for USA to side with any one country, especially because of their recent war against Al Qaeda and Pakistan ( Pervez Musharraff , don't think the rest of pakistan supports his views) willing to help them out.
But now see it this why isn't Pakistan helping out India the same way it is helping USA to control infiltration on their western border with Afghanistan.
The reason is that they see India as an enemy and doesn't pay any attention to their border with India ( eastern front with Kashmir ), they are trying to bluff the world by showing how concerned they really are about Kashmir and the problem facing them , infact they aren't doing anything to control terrorism in their part of the occupied kashmir.They try to tell the world that the ppl in kashmir want independence....which is so untrue, a majority of them just want peace cos this never was a freedom struggle by them....it was a fake impression given to the world by Pakistan.
India also conducted elections in Kashmir recently....in which Indian leaders belonging to the Indian government were elected in a majority.Freedom struggle = bullshit.
Majority of the terrorists who are killed by Indian soldiers in kashmir everyday are pakistanis , islamic jehadists from pakistan and not kashmiris...it means its not the ppl of kashmir fighting but pakis who just don't want a peaceful looking India.
USA bombed Afghanistan and Iraq when the terrorists atacked WTC killing about 3000 ppl.....now imagine 80,000 ppl being killed so far Kashmir.
I don't think this issue can ever get solved by peaceful means , how can it be when the other person doesn't want peace itself.
But now see it this why isn't Pakistan helping out India the same way it is helping USA to control infiltration on their western border with Afghanistan.
The reason is that they see India as an enemy and doesn't pay any attention to their border with India ( eastern front with Kashmir ), they are trying to bluff the world by showing how concerned they really are about Kashmir and the problem facing them , infact they aren't doing anything to control terrorism in their part of the occupied kashmir.They try to tell the world that the ppl in kashmir want independence....which is so untrue, a majority of them just want peace cos this never was a freedom struggle by them....it was a fake impression given to the world by Pakistan.
India also conducted elections in Kashmir recently....in which Indian leaders belonging to the Indian government were elected in a majority.Freedom struggle = bullshit.
Majority of the terrorists who are killed by Indian soldiers in kashmir everyday are pakistanis , islamic jehadists from pakistan and not kashmiris...it means its not the ppl of kashmir fighting but pakis who just don't want a peaceful looking India.
USA bombed Afghanistan and Iraq when the terrorists atacked WTC killing about 3000 ppl.....now imagine 80,000 ppl being killed so far Kashmir.
I don't think this issue can ever get solved by peaceful means , how can it be when the other person doesn't want peace itself.
godofthunder9010
Active member
It's been discussed a great deal, but it still amazes me how prone Islam is to murder and terrorism. Pakistan isn't about to do any favors for India as you can imagine xion. The world is pretty screwed up sometimes and Kashmir is a giant example. The problem is, I don't know if war is a reasonable solution since Pakistan will launch its warheads the moment they feel threatened.
The interesting thing to me is ... well, do you remember the Iron Curtain with all its walls, barbed wire fences and such? It seems sad, but is the only solution for containing these murderers from going about their work is to put up similar sorts of walls and barriers; just that such barriers would not be to keep people in. They would be to keep murderous madmen from slipping across the border, etc? Are we forced to institute a police state in order to ensure our own national safety? Its all quite sad IMO.
xion, could you provide some links about the Kashmir vote you mentioned? I hadn't ever heard of it. So the popular vote of Kashmir was to put its destiny in the hands of India then? Was the portion of Kashmir occupied by Pakistan included? I could understand if Pakistan didn't allow it of course.
The interesting thing to me is ... well, do you remember the Iron Curtain with all its walls, barbed wire fences and such? It seems sad, but is the only solution for containing these murderers from going about their work is to put up similar sorts of walls and barriers; just that such barriers would not be to keep people in. They would be to keep murderous madmen from slipping across the border, etc? Are we forced to institute a police state in order to ensure our own national safety? Its all quite sad IMO.
xion, could you provide some links about the Kashmir vote you mentioned? I hadn't ever heard of it. So the popular vote of Kashmir was to put its destiny in the hands of India then? Was the portion of Kashmir occupied by Pakistan included? I could understand if Pakistan didn't allow it of course.
What was that about?? I don't think anyone here ever called the murders in Kashmir "Freedom Fighters".
Yeah USA never said it was a freedom struggle , but the Pakis do of course they would love to see a weakened India wouldn't they...
Sorry i don't have any links to the election thing..but yeah when india went to elections a few months earlier the separatist leaders weren't elected in Kashmir and one more thing if Pakistan is so eager to liberate Kashmiris why don't they first just give up their part of the occupied Kashmir
Sorry i don't have any links to the election thing..but yeah when india went to elections a few months earlier the separatist leaders weren't elected in Kashmir and one more thing if Pakistan is so eager to liberate Kashmiris why don't they first just give up their part of the occupied Kashmir
godofthunder9010
Active member
Well, terrorists are pretty universally called "Freedom Fighters" by Muslims, and its completely disgusting. As long as a Muslim murders a non-Muslim, it's "for the greater good of all mankind". If a Muslim murders another Muslim, its often no big deal at all. Genocide involving Muslims massacring Muslims? Not even newsworthy. If a non-Muslim puts a single toe out of line anywhere near a Muslim, its an unforgivable attrocity.
If I have any understanding of their relgion at all (and I most certainly do), we ought to be able to expect more from Islam as a whole.
If I have any understanding of their relgion at all (and I most certainly do), we ought to be able to expect more from Islam as a whole.
This is mostly all in response to Xion's many posts.
I am having trouble coming to terms with how incredibly biased Xion is. He reminds of of those people that claim that it was only the Muslims who slaughtered innocent hindus during the partition the Killing of innocent people took place on both sides. Its a Little Hard to belive this has all been one sided and poor little india has just been defending itself. India is just as much to blame for this whole conflict in general as Pakistan. They both need to stop playing the blame game because now that both are Nuclear powers the stakes are simply to high for them to continue bickering. Also that little comment that you would Nuke them if you could just proves my point that there are Idiots on both sides prolonging this conflict.
I am having trouble coming to terms with how incredibly biased Xion is. He reminds of of those people that claim that it was only the Muslims who slaughtered innocent hindus during the partition the Killing of innocent people took place on both sides. Its a Little Hard to belive this has all been one sided and poor little india has just been defending itself. India is just as much to blame for this whole conflict in general as Pakistan. They both need to stop playing the blame game because now that both are Nuclear powers the stakes are simply to high for them to continue bickering. Also that little comment that you would Nuke them if you could just proves my point that there are Idiots on both sides prolonging this conflict.