House passes HR 2956 (223-201) Redeployment from Iraq Act

Its been 5 years, the plan is clearly not working. The Iraq government progress report showed 8 out 18 goals met (40%) and that was after the report was cherry picked to death by the White House. In other words, even after cheating, the best grade the Iraqi government could score with was an 'F'.

Ouch.

We can leave now or 10 years from now, but this fantasy of creating a great Iraqi Democracy is not going to happen. The time is up and now we must choose between our interests are the Iraqis. I agree its a bad deal, but life fill of bad choices. I don't see any interest for us to stay any longer in Iraq, does anyone? And more to the point, the Iraqis have been overwhelming clear: They want us out, they have been saying that since the day we arrived, some people choose not to listen. Poll after poll has reflected this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/26/AR2006092601721.html

And don't give me the 'GWOT'. Thats a tired old spin to politically justify an authoritarian power in Washington. A replay of Senator McCarthy's 'Red' Scare, but Bush cried 'wolf' one too many times any know his credibility is zilch. Serves him right for using our fear as political tool.

The truth is, there wouldn't be terrorism in Iraq if we hadn't stupidly and recklessly removed the one man capable of keeping it from spreading. Saddam was an Evil bastard, but he did serve a useful purpose, that much is clear.

You want to fight terrorists, like the ones that attacked us on 9-11 (in my hometown, no less) fine, lets do it. They are in Pakistan. You have my blessing. But every intelligence estimate has said that the US involvement in Iraq in increasing terrorism, not decreasing it. Look what happened in London and Glasgow if you don't believe me. The terrorists were Iraqi Doctors who were angry at the occupation. Stay tuned, you'll see more of that in the future.

You want to talk Betrayal? Well then, we should start at the very beginning. Lets talk about the Betrayal of America by its own Government by the overwhelming and well documented lies it told us that got us into this fine mess in the first place. If the Iraqis feel the US Government betrayed them, they need to get in line which starts BEHIND us.

I may being sitting on my (well cushioned) rear in Paris, but I am savvy enough to recognize a CON job when I see one. You feel sorry about the Iraqis? So do I, we are both the same victims of the same Washington scam.

I'll tell you something else, The Bush Administration doesn't give a damn about the Iraqis. This war is no longer about terrorism, or freedom, or all the other junk we have been spoon fed through the media. Its about Pride. Its about not having to admit being responsible for the largest disaster in foreign policy in the past 30 years. If Bush could find a way out of Iraq with his ego intact, we would be out of Iraq faster than a bolt of lightening. Is this ego-trip something you want to keep send our young people into a meat-grinder for? I'll pass, and incidentally so does most of America.

You worry about 'betraying' them by abandoning them? Oh but we have done that so many times in the past I can could hardly count. The Phillippeans in 1941-42, the Bay of Pigs, South Vietnam, the Kurds in 1991 and so on and so forth. So don't be surprised if it happens again, we are experts at abandoning our friends.
 
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Okay lets just get down to brass tacks.

My parents hate the war , my wife hates the war, my brothers and sister hate the war. Most of my family hate the war. And this isn't me being flippant, sarcastic or confrontational.

I don't rate an opinion I'd care to discuss for obvious reasons.


If you put all the politics aside ..in my case. If you you remove the reasons we are there, the reasons we were given anyway right, wrong or otherwise. If you stop worrying about how western Europe perceives the US. If you stop apologizing for being American for a second.

What it comes down to is a human factor that CNN,FOX,SKY etc don't show you. The Iraqi's who want a chance.
 
03USMC said:
Okay lets just get down to brass tacks.

My parents hate the war , my wife hates the war, my brothers and sister hate the war. Most of my family hate the war. And this isn't me being flippant, sarcastic or confrontational.

I don't rate an opinion I'd care to discuss for obvious reasons.


If you put all the politics aside ..in my case. If you you remove the reasons we are there, the reasons we were given anyway right, wrong or otherwise. If you stop worrying about how western Europe perceives the US. If you stop apologizing for being American for a second.

What it comes down to is a human factor that CNN,FOX,SKY etc don't show you. The Iraqi's who want a chance.
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Oh believe me, I understand that. I have no doubt that your heart is in the right place and that your motivation is passionate. The problem is often the heart interfers with what the brain is telling you. I too would like to help the Iraqis, but the best way to do that is not to help them. Are you familiar with the saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"?

My Uncle is a (French) Vietnam Vet. The stories he told me are not unlike the stories you are telling me. He too had tremendous respect for the Vietnamese he served with in Vietnam, but ultimately his service, despite all the best intentions proved counter-productive. It took him about 20 years after the war to realize that. If history has taught us anything is that you cannot make other people into your own image.

The Iraqis (and best of luck to them) they need to find there own way out of their problems. This is a problem we caused, unfortunately only they can fix it. We can send them help indirectly in the form of money, equipment, etc. But the only way you'll bring peace to a region is by Iraqi self-determination.
 
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mmarsh said:
Oh believe me, I understand that. I have no doubt that your heart is in the right place and that your motivation is passionate. The problem is often the heart interfers with what the brain is telling you. I too would like to help the Iraqis, but the best way to do that is not to help them. Are you familiar with the saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"?

My Uncle is a (French) Vietnam Vet. The stories he told me are not unlike the stories you are telling me. He too had tremendous respect for the Vietnamese he served with in Vietnam, but ultimately his service, despite all the best intentions proved counter-productive. It took him about 20 years after the war to realize that. If history has taught us anything is that you cannot make other people into your own image.

The Iraqis (and best of luck to them) they need to find there own way out of their problems. This is a problem we caused, unfortunately only they can fix it. We can send them help indirectly in the form of money, equipment, etc. But the only way you'll bring peace to a region is by Iraqi self-determination.
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Keep repeating to yourself, they drew first blood. I don't care which part of the Middle East the barbarians came from, but none of this crap would be happening if they had policed themselves instead of poking a bear with a stick.
 
Missileer said:
Keep repeating to yourself, they drew first blood. I don't care which part of the Middle East the barbarians came from, but none of this crap would be happening if they had policed themselves instead of poking a bear with a stick.
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So by that reckoning in 1941 we ought to have attacked every single Asian country in the Far East because of Pearl Harbor? Was it really China and Korea's fault that Japan attacked us? There are over 1 Billion Muslims in the World, what you are proposing would result in WWIII.

Secondly, if you understood the extent of our meddling in Middle East affairs you would know we aren't exactly innocent as you suggest either. We have long supported tyrannies like the Kingdom of Saud whom oppress their own people (in methods similar to the Taliban) all in the name of democracy and cheap gas. I have met some of the Saudi Royalty, you'd be appalled how badly they treat their servants. Plantation Slaves in Dixie were treated better. When you think that we support/protect these people, its only natural that some of that anger of the local population to be directed back toward us.
 
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Nothing could redeem us in their eyes, after we abandoned those who were courageous enough to stand up to Saddam in the first Gulf War.
 
let me go out this way for a minute: Iran. We cannot do anything about Iran because the bulk of our force is tied up holding down Iraq. and if we do invade Iran then there is no way we can remain peaceful with any arab country (we've taken down two of them already) and then our oil supply is shut off. Yet if we don't invade, Iran might first (which would give us an excuse to attack them.) but it would still look sketchy to a country like Saudi Arabia that we insist on peace yet we seem to be trying to wipe out all arab control in the region.

The region is such a mess at this point I don't even know what to think, other than my belief that we are on two missions: a witch hunt of Iran, and the fact that we're putting everything off until shortly after Bush leaves office. (ex. the grade card on the troop surge won't be ready for 18 months, which is late January 2009-- right after bush leaves)
 
Tell me, what percentage of middle eastern countries rely heavily on importing grain to feed their populations? Looks like we've got them by the balls also, can't wage a war if your population is starving.
 
Damien435 said:
Tell me, what percentage of middle eastern countries rely heavily on importing grain to feed their populations? Looks like we've got them by the balls also, can't wage a war if your population is starving.
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If we are put into the situation where we invade another middle eastern country and they cut off our oil resources, I very much doubt that every country in the world, or even most countries, will back us up.
 
If they cut off the oil, wouldn't the military just... seize the oil fields, and leave the rest of those sandbox countries alone without oil?
 
we can't just cut the grain if we're supposed to be helping them. We need to lose the "good of the people" approach. it's limiting what we can do to the point where our military is inept.
 
The Other Guy said:
we can't just cut the grain if we're supposed to be helping them. We need to lose the "good of the people" approach. it's limiting what we can do to the point where our military is inept.
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You cant see the "catch 22" with this argument?
 
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The Other Guy said:
not sure what that means... elaborate, please.
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A "Catch 22" is when you are faced with a choice between two options both of which have draw backs.

In the case of what you posted if you lose the "good of the people" approach then you will piss people off and if you maintain it you cant do the job in which case people will still be pissed off basically a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario.
 
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