Haiti and better solutions from military?

perseus are you for real???

there are more things in this world than oil...

hmmm....
when we run out of oil i wonder what you are going to use as your scape goat for your demonizing explanations of why America is "really" trying to help some one out...
 
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I'm not demonizing anything. I know why people helped Haiti. Because they care. Haiti, OTOH, typical third world cesspool that sucks up every bit of help given, then complains about not getting enough. Haiti stays third world because of greed and corruption.
 
I am not giving a dime to Haiti other then the taxes I pay. They have no idea how to run a society and expect big brother to come and bail them out every time. They have the nerve to complain because we were not there quick enough and when we show up in force they complain about us violating their sovereignty..... I am pretty pissed my taxes are paying for that shithole.
 
Okay I'm going to chip in with my tuppence worth, 'cos this is getting very excitable.

The original part of the thread talked about a better way to ensure that aid got to people, not too sure as you have something like 35 different nationalities (and languages) chipping in, all with the best intentions, add to that a hostof NGO's, that each have their own specialised agenda. Then take into account that a 3rd world country has been shattered, what internal infrastructure, both physical, political and social has been degraded and you have the potential for a Keystone cops scenario - which is what we have, although instead of laughs people are dying.

If we're looking to point fingers, as we in the general public do, I would blame the UN. They are after all the lead agency, yes they lost people, but they had and have enough infrastructure in place to direct relief efforts and help to get Haiti back, instead of wringing their hands and hoping that someone else would take on the headache.

But if we're looking to blame someone for the state of Haiti, then I'll go along and hold the US accountable. It supported dictators and when it couldn't get its way it has marginalised the country through trade laws. But that is the past, the US is trying to do the right thing, as are many other countries in the world, at least for the next few weeks. But the cameras will leave, beacuase Mrs Miggins cat is going to be stuck up a tree, and attention will fade, and Haiti will still be a 3rd world country, only less of an illegal immigrant problem (not enough of them to worry about) and more of a drugs problem, because somebody has to fill that political and financial vacuum and drugs seem to be the only industry nimble enough to react to changing circumstances and sieze opportunities.
 
For situations like these there won't be enough MPs to go around. As for the 300 thing... funny but I think those folks need to get their discipline in check.
The US Army must be real nice. If we pissed off our instructors, we'd spend the morning balancing on our two feet and the top of our heads and enjoy the afternoon duck walking and doing other equally painful sh*t all over the parade ground. Oh yeah, and your commanding officer will get a few new assh0les torn in him by the training unit's CO which means the fun and games aren't over when you return to base at the end of the instruction period.
If the task given to you is to keep a potentially hostile crowd at bay without provoking it and you provoke it, you have failed to carry out your orders satisfactorily.
You're a grunt? Well good for you. Glad to hear your guys wasted tax payer money fooling around when you guys should have been paying attention getting your crowd control knowledge squared away. The 21st century grunt has to be smart. If we want to just kill people, I have bad news, the Air Force can do that faster with fewer friendly casualties so you'd be out of a job.

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That was a really cool story, thanks...

Lol it has nothing to do with discipline.... It has to do with muscle reflex and doctrine. Who in the **** said we werent paying attention or ****ing off? They were getting pissed because our opfor was walking out of the itterations with bloody noses from getting smoked in the faces with shields. You know what? They never broke our line and after a few turns they lost any will to keep going. We have a little thing called escalation of force. If they get in your face you push them, if they push you, you slam them. You are always a level of force above your adversary. If some dumbass comes up and pushes your shield or throws a rock you are ready to **** them up by doctrine alone...

No infantryman wants a hostile indvidual anywhere near him. You have a rifle, a side-arm, possibly some frags. You will be afraid they will try to finger **** your ****. You are trained to drop anything that threatens you period. With either bullets or with your firsts. So you expect these kind of troops to just put that mentality away for the day and pull it back out next week? Are you trackin? You don't just change **** up that has been pounded into your head for years. Thats why the Army has MP's..... Let me guess, I should be able to type up my own paperwork and fly my c-130 to my destination too right? Sorry, we aren't super studs like Korean troops.
 
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I'm not demonizing anything. I know why people helped Haiti. Because they care. Haiti, OTOH, typical third world cesspool that sucks up every bit of help given, then complains about not getting enough. Haiti stays third world because of greed and corruption.
my bad

i wasnt actually referring to you when i sed hmmm ( i said it do demonstrate my deep and meaningful thought on this issue:p).
i still am thinking deeply and meaningfully to figure out how on earth perseus got such a bizarre world view.
sorry for the mix up.

cheers mate

captiva...
 
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Hurricane Katrina hit in 2005. George W Bush was President since 2001.
There's no excuse.
If the toilets in a hospital are a mess, the President of the hospital is responsible. The fact that he doesn't go cleaning toilets himself is irrelevant.
The uncoordinated nature of all these different branches is ultimately the President's responsibility.
I'd say if all these agencies can't work together, I'd have them reorganized under one leadership and one agency.


1.) It is not the federal governments responsibility to provide anything other than what is stated in the Bill of Rights, it's amendments and the US Constitution, but it still does provide assistance.

2.) Combining multiple agencies into one begs the question of centralizing government and puts an effective "communist" spin on it.

3.) You mean Hospital Admin or at least that's what they are here, aside from that a Hospital Admin may be in-charge of the hospital, but "cleaning toilets" is the responsibility of either Maintenance Department Head or Custodial Department Head, and if neither department preforms it's jobs then action by the immediate Supervisor of Operations within the hospital is preformed.

See the President isn't like a King or Dictator, there are so many laws, so much paperwork and so much crap to go through it's unbelievable. The President is forbidden by Federal law to active Federal troops and send them into a state without permission from the Governor, and if the Governor isn't preforming their job, then then they need to GTFO.
 
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National guard and military typically fall under temporary authority of FEMA, IIRC, and sometimes even the police will. Except in Colorado that is unconstitutional, and FEMA respects that, as technically while they are civilian government, they are military oriented, thus per state constitution all military falls under civilian authority, which then places the liability for inappropriate conduct by such forces on the shoulders of the civilian leaders, who do not have absolute authority.

This is a bit of a yes and a no, Military force must remain under military control, civilian authority may have no control over them, but that's the reason agencies and organizations have liaisons and we have an ICS.

Basically National Guard or Federal military personnel can't have a group leader that's a civilian, when the NG or Federal forces show up they bring their whole chain-of-command with them, and FEMA may not even be in-charge when the Guard arrives, a simple Fire Chief may be, but under ICS guidelines if he retains specialized training for the event then he is IC (Incident Commander), and there may be multiple IC's during an operation, due to multiple situations, one incharge of personnel preforming rescue operations, one in-charge of ensure security, one in-charge of ensuring gas, water, sewage, ect.. are off, one in-charge of triage, ect...

CAP/USAFAUX can not have any military personnel in control of our personnel or operations because we're civil personnel, but in return to this we can not have any non-CAP personnel in control because we're an auxiliary. The organization is in a unique placement to have access to DoD and DHS logistics and support but without going through FEMA, and we can operate independently of the Federal Government.

It all falls into the ICS (Incident Command System).

See CAP/USAFAUX can't move on a Federal/DOD mission unless directed by MCSS or AFRCC, but the organization can preform missions under the "Corporate Mission" label, but under this facet they lack support of DoD/DHS because it isn't a Federal mission, and lacks an actual AFRCC/MCSS mission number, but local units (i.e. a squadron or wing) may activate it's personnel within it's AO without either AFRCC/MCSS or SEMA/CEMA support or permission, because each unit is self sustainable and self contained in, but the operations, but the circumstances in which the unit is activated must be justifiable.

So in the long run CAP/USAFAUX's basic point of existence is to help augment and be a "force multiplier" to a state or communities assets and even usher in faster support of FEMA or the military.

The way ICS works is when a disaster strike whomever is on the scene first is the Incident Commander (so in a nut shell if the police show up at a fire first, the officer in-charge is IC until the Fire Department arrives, so the cops just secure a perimeter, setup an IC post and if any police are EMT trained preform basic triage and the officer relinquishes command the the Fire Chief but the officer may still remain an IC or a member of the ICT "Incident Command Team" as a IC or assistant IC whom is in-charge of perimeter security and investigation into the inccident) and until support arrives that person is the IC, unless he relinquishes command to another individual (for a reason such as sleep deprivation, to eat, or to assist in another operation), so as I said before a simple Fire Chief or Police Chief may be the Incident Commander for a while until someone on the SEMA/CEMA CoC calls up FEMA/DHS/AFRCC and requests support, takes a call from the Governor to get other states or Federal military support, has to do with states rights and ensuring Posse Comitatus is upheld.
 
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Have you ever heard of the "switch"?
You have to be able to go from giving smiles and a hand shake to kill at a moment's notice.
Some of the best folks in the hurting business (master martial artists and gangsters) I've met are the most polite folks you can ever meet. They'll greet you with a smile, a handshake, have great manners but you know that if you crossed them, they'd kick your ass without hesitation or mercy.
It's very unfortunate that you, getting paid what you do when you are active, can't figure this out. Indonesian Marines who get paid a fraction of what you do seemed to understand this very well.
Incase you didn't realize, much of a grunt's work nowadays is very much like policework... policework in a very bad neighborhood but policework nonetheless. So instead of saying, "that's MP stuff, it's not my responsibility" how about acknowledging that this is one of the many aspects of your job? No, I don't expect you to fly a C-130. But if you had to, you'd better figure it out. If your rifle BN is the only American presence in town and you have to win hearts and minds by building a small hospital, teaching cleanliness classes, giving some kind of aid to those who need it etc., that is what you will do. You won't go to your platoon leader and tell him you're not a carpenter and d1ck around with saws and nails with the rest of your squad.
This is called common sense.
If foreign troops for any reason had to come to your town and gave smiles, handshakes and their junior officers asked the people (including you) what it is you guys needed the most, it is far less likely to provoke a violent response than say they drop in, make the heavy weapons visible, in sight, buttoned up behind fortification, wearing shades and staring down the locals. Giving handshakes and whatnot does not mean you're not ready for a fight.
If a fight does break out, you know these guys are hard core bad guys and not some locals you pissed off because you were being an idiot.
I understand that doing this in practice is very hard to do, especially if no interpreter is present, but the fact that you're not even familiar with this concept is quite shocking. You will never win hearts and minds that way. If you step on a person's dignity, they will kill you even if they are guaranteed certain death.

That was a really cool story, thanks...

Lol it has nothing to do with discipline.... It has to do with muscle reflex and doctrine. Who in the **** said we werent paying attention or ****ing off? They were getting pissed because our opfor was walking out of the itterations with bloody noses from getting smoked in the faces with shields. You know what? They never broke our line and after a few turns they lost any will to keep going. We have a little thing called escalation of force. If they get in your face you push them, if they push you, you slam them. You are always a level of force above your adversary. If some dumbass comes up and pushes your shield or throws a rock you are ready to **** them up by doctrine alone...

No infantryman wants a hostile indvidual anywhere near him. You have a rifle, a side-arm, possibly some frags. You will be afraid they will try to finger **** your ****. You are trained to drop anything that threatens you period. With either bullets or with your firsts. So you expect these kind of troops to just put that mentality away for the day and pull it back out next week? Are you trackin? You don't just change **** up that has been pounded into your head for years. Thats why the Army has MP's..... Let me guess, I should be able to type up my own paperwork and fly my c-130 to my destination too right? Sorry, we aren't super studs like Korean troops.


See the President isn't like a King or Dictator,
WOW. Thank you so much. And all this time I thought the elections were some kind of dog and pony show. :rolleyes:
So a President can't make a single angry phone call? No wonder nothing ever gets done.
 
Well it's really going to depend on the unit and the area it's deploying to as to how much CA training it's gonna have on it's training schedule. Certain units like the 82nd and USMC MEU'S are going to get CA training are going to get a steady diet of it because of the mission(s) they may have to perform. While a Company in the 2nd ID might only get it prior to deployment as part of their ramp up period.

Even in the best case scenerio the chances of an Infantry BDE building hosptials or restoring services is low as it is for an MP Company attached to them. Their job is to provide security for those follow ons i.e. engineers, medical units etc. that will build and populate hospitals.

The delination of duties is pretty cut and dried as is the access to material.

Say I want to build a hospital for Achmed in the Village of Al Bin Haji Iraq.

If I request Cement, lumber and tools higher is going to ask me why the hell my unit needs it, who authorized it and why I'm not concentrating on my mission of keeping the MSR open instead of worrying about construction projects that fall out of my scope of responsibility. I explain and they tell "Not your Problem stay in your lane."

Now I know how to get this done: You go to Civil Affairs, and let them handle it, you reach out to guys who have connections and fall in the gray area and are tasked with this stuff. That's how it's done.

Other units that aren't tasked with these types of operations generally can't do it. They can do little stuff HA packs, distributing the blankets, books, etc. patroling in less aggressive manner (if allowed by higher) but you are limited by regs and SOP. Just sayin.
 
Makes sense but I did put in the scenario that it would be the case if your folks were the only available assets and it had to be done.
All in all, if you have to do it, you have to do it... provide security for the village and fix it up if there aren't enough engineers to go around.
Other H&M related knowledge we get in addition to combat training is construction (we do this on our own base... I have built many things including some flights of stairs for example), farming (we get practical experience with the local farmers) and education (those with special skills are given additional tasks for teaching children skills at the local school) to name a few. All practical skills to know in order to win Hearts and Minds in North Korea if such a day should come.
There will never be enough engineers and other specialists to go around so it's really up to the unit responsible for securing their area of operations to engage and destroy the enemy, provide security, and win the hearts and minds of the locals. It also helps reduce the amount of guerilla warfare we have to deal with.
Different militaries I suppose.
 
Does it make sense? Yes. But in the US Military it's not gonna happen. It works well for the guys in beards and funny hats that we have, but they are set up for this as a matter of mission. But the big Army runs on paperwork and bureaucrats that need to dot i's and cross t's and count beans.

There are channels and procedures and woe betide the guy that does not adhere to them.
 
Got it 03.
I guess it's a matter that's well beyond our pay grades.
I bet it all started with some dumbsh1t E-1 complaining about how it wasn't what he signed the contract for.
 
Don't get me wrong "things" can be done. You just need to have contacts and know what wheels to grease, and not care about the fall out. All about making friends and contacts.:p
 
Got it 03.
I guess it's a matter that's well beyond our pay grades.
I bet it all started with some dumbsh1t E-1 complaining about how it wasn't what he signed the contract for.

Sometimes the term "stay in your lane" NEEDS to apply. I've watched months of long, hard work fall apart at the wrong, untrained hands attempting to accomplish the same follow on mission. Guys trained and informed do the work, build the blocks and big green (Army / Marines) decides that conventional forces can take over and handle it from there. The next thing you know, the trust and rapport that was built is shattered. Not because the guys did anything wrong, they went through the motions, followed their little guide book, provided supplies, assisted cultivations, ran MEDCAPS, met with the tribal leaders, gave kids hugs and played soccer. But those things aren't going to garner deep trust in and of themselves.

Winning hearts and minds is not as simple as it looks, esp. when it's not your own people, your own culture or your own country. It's not so black and white that everyone can do the mission if they'd just "try." FID, IDAD, HA. These are not just "add on" missions, they're not pick up gigs. They require years of training.

Infantrymen need to be conditioned and trained to close with and destroy the enemy. If we spend as much time as they would need to develop the mindset, skills and ability to handle these missions, would be shooting ourselves in the foot and losing the backbone to our military defense/offense. Not to mention 19 year old males aren't well known for their patience, wisdom or experience.

We have the resources, we have the skills, what we don't have is a conventional leadership that understands the roles and missions on a more strategic level.
 
There never will be enough SOF people to go around.
Though I haven't been in a funny place while getting shot at, I've grown up in all kinds of places so different paradigms are nothing new to me. It's not always about just giving supplies but how you give it. You can give it in a manner that is respectful or you can give it in a manner that is condescending, even if you mean well.
There's a very good example of folks who give charity to other folks and can never win hearts and minds. Chinese Indonesians in their own country of citizenship. They give during appropriate times of the year, people take, but they can't win the hearts and minds of the "local" populace.
Food for thought.
Although I don't know the higher ups running the conventional US military, I'm not really surprised. If the top leadership doesn't realize this issue, it's not going to find its way down the chain of command.
 
There never will be enough SOF people to go around.
Though I haven't been in a funny place while getting shot at, I've grown up in all kinds of places so different paradigms are nothing new to me. It's not always about just giving supplies but how you give it. You can give it in a manner that is respectful or you can give it in a manner that is condescending, even if you mean well.
There's a very good example of folks who give charity to other folks and can never win hearts and minds. Chinese Indonesians in their own country of citizenship. They give during appropriate times of the year, people take, but they can't win the hearts and minds of the "local" populace.
Food for thought.
Although I don't know the higher ups running the conventional US military, I'm not really surprised. If the top leadership doesn't realize this issue, it's not going to find its way down the chain of command.

And there's the rub, running those types of missions in a foreign, hostile land are much different than showing up as the bringer of happiness and warmth and more importantly, stuff.

Expecting infantry to control those operations, maintain them and become proficient at them is impossible and unrealistic.

Haiti is a bit different in the sense that it is not hostile, but we are still utilizing our combat arms assets to provide humanitarian aid and they are fully capable of this. They will not be setting up governments, working deals with small business owners, etc. They won't be preforming the "hearts and minds" mission. That isn't their role nor is it their mission.

While they will make the indigs feel happy and confident in their uniformed visitors, they will not truly win "hearts and minds". Many do not understand the complexities in truly building a steadfast trust and rapport, I certainly don't. Just because they smile, rush you and thank you when you visit, doesn't mean you've truly reached them and it doesn't mean you have their undying loyalty when/if you need it. All it means is that you've successfully accomplished the HA mission.

To get back on point, I agree that saying "Well, that's not my mission" is a bad standard to set and allow. But it is also important to remember that while our conventional forces are experienced and adept at providing security assistance and humanitarian aid, it doesn't mean they're proficient in UW (this would encompass the "hearts and minds" aspect,) nor should they have to be. Most people/units/forces that claim they can preform UW are woefully ignorant of the depth. HN and SA are merely scratches on the surface and only provide superficial results. Not saying that's a bad thing, but it's not a long term strategic investment.

And I'll add that I'm no expert in UW, so take my words for what they are. I'm more of an expert in the T&A missions. :lol:
 
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In Afghanistan, I think the ultimate reason why the last push for winning Hearts and Minds isn't being realized is simply because it is practically guaranteed that the United States won't be there for as long as it is going to take. If I was an Afghan leader, that would be a deal killer for me right there. Unless I see seat reservations for all of my people to leave Afghanistan and have lawful residences in the United States, I wouldn't budge.
Oh yeah, and never take a smile and a handshake as a final deal. There are many places in the world where being two faced is as normal as the sun coming up in the east and the sun setting in the west. If you think about it, that's pretty damned smart. Many of us are fortunate to have learned this under much better circumstances. Some may go so far as to agree with you, kiss your @55, shower you with gifts all the while knowing they won't be on your side.
Actually this reminds me of something... but I'll have to write it later.
 
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