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Extra 100 Islamic schools.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
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You are now resorting to bluster and rubbish to avoid my attempts to get you on-topic.
I have repeated the important question on discrimination many times, but each time you have dodged the issue.
Just admit it, you cannot answer, you have completely lost the argument.
Your attempt to mislead does not work. In fact, post 32 does NOT answer the question at all. Post 34 was not from you and I have already adressed it here. Post 38 is not from you and does not answer correctly, as I have made clear already.My post 39.
On this thread you are being a complete, trying to hi-jack and getting in the way of the pursuance of the subject.
SO HERE WE GO AGAIN, I'LL PATIENTLY TRY ONCE MORE . COME ON, IT'S JUST ONE SIMPLE QUESTION. :-
"As for discrimination - in how many Islamic countries can a church be BUILT, or churchbells rung, or Christian festivals celebrated, or people allowed to choose accept religions other than Islam? (that is - to convert from Islam.)"
I will accept 'don't know ' as an answer.
Could I possibly make it simpler for you to get back on topic re discrimination?
Stop the bombast - be nice and answer the question and that will enable me to develop my argument on -topic. Otherwise, please get off the pot and allow the discussion to go on without you.
.
I have repeated the important question on discrimination many times, but each time you have dodged the issue.
Just admit it, you cannot answer, you have completely lost the argument.
Your attempt to mislead does not work. In fact, post 32 does NOT answer the question at all. Post 34 was not from you and I have already adressed it here. Post 38 is not from you and does not answer correctly, as I have made clear already.My post 39.
On this thread you are being a complete, trying to hi-jack and getting in the way of the pursuance of the subject.
SO HERE WE GO AGAIN, I'LL PATIENTLY TRY ONCE MORE . COME ON, IT'S JUST ONE SIMPLE QUESTION. :-
"As for discrimination - in how many Islamic countries can a church be BUILT, or churchbells rung, or Christian festivals celebrated, or people allowed to choose accept religions other than Islam? (that is - to convert from Islam.)"
I will accept 'don't know ' as an answer.
Could I possibly make it simpler for you to get back on topic re discrimination?
Stop the bombast - be nice and answer the question and that will enable me to develop my argument on -topic. Otherwise, please get off the pot and allow the discussion to go on without you.
.
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senojekips
Active member
Having just read through the last few pages of this thread, I'm afraid that I must wholeheartedly agree with !LH@N. The questions here have been answered quite clearly and concisely. Let's see if we can't get some new input instead of this endless loop of "You haven't answered my questions".
I must admit that I am at a complete loss as to why Del Boy can't understand what has been said, it is blatantly obvious to me, and it appears to !LH@N. I had deliberately kept out of this because I feared that maybe I was misunderstanding either Del Boy's argument or the answers to it. It appears not.
Remember what the great Winnie said. "[SIZE=-1]A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject"
[/SIZE]
I must admit that I am at a complete loss as to why Del Boy can't understand what has been said, it is blatantly obvious to me, and it appears to !LH@N. I had deliberately kept out of this because I feared that maybe I was misunderstanding either Del Boy's argument or the answers to it. It appears not.
Remember what the great Winnie said. "[SIZE=-1]A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject"
[/SIZE]
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Infern0
Banned
as has been answered for you AT LEAST 3 times already;
at least eight, including the most population islamic state, indonesia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_by_country
Inferno, Senojekips and Il - Kindly read this post carefully - my last post addressed the three posts you mention, and included my numbered posts that dealt with them. I have simply been waiting for Monty's reply so that I could deal with these answers, as my last post said. I will now deal with the question without waiting any longer.
Now, Inferno had taken up the issue of dsicrimination, and I have been keen to establish that Britain does not discriminate against Muslims, which was/is the implication.
And in reply to him I put the question under discussion :
"As for discrimination - in how many Islamic countries can a church be BUILT, or churchbells rung, or Christian festivals celebrated, or people allowed to choose accept religions other than Islam? (that is - to convert from Islam.)"
The answer to all four, taken together,is, of course, very, very few, if any.
Il suggested Turkey - a good answer, but Turkey is secular, and while they may HAVE christian churches, that is not the same as allowing churches to be BUILT, and I would be surprised if it could be proved that they are accepting of Muslims choosing to change religion. If it is indeed acceptable there, then they would be the exception.
Indonesia was suggested, but of course Indonesia has large minorities of other faiths, but the christians are now under attack and I repeat the comments I made regarding Turkey.
Inferno's list of eight would not not pass the test regarding christian church building or religion changing, even if they scrapedthrough on the other two.
The fact is that the old Muslim world of the Golden Age is no longer with us, the Muslims of these countries are no longer famed for their tolerance, and they do, in fact, discriminate against christians.
And the strange thing is that even ALL of the regimes mentioned in the answers given , with the exception of Iran, are themselves under threat from extreme militant Islam.
WHAT a difference from the situation in, say, my country, where no religious practices of Muslims are banned , they have been encouraged actually. And if christians wish to become Muslims, their right to do so is recognised. And new mosques are established daily.
So just let's get it right here, Britain does not discriminate against Muslims. It can be safely said that the boot is in fact on the other foot. And it is now happening here.
So I am concerned when it is carelessly insinuated that descrimination is the problem here, and I object to to being accused of fanaticism, racism and intolerance when the opposite is the truth.
Here I have posted many sound reports to support my position, all completely ignored as far as I can see, some from prominent and respected Muslims of authority in race relations, who send the same message as I do, AND I PRODUCE THE LATEST OF THESE BELOW.
.
A race apart? Muslim women on a Birmingham street
Yet in this case, I feel he is correct in highlighting the problem of cultural apartheid that is developing in some of our urban areas.
It is not good enough just to dismiss his opinions and hope that the whole issue will go away, for the failure to achieve real integration in our society is far too serious an issue to be ignored.
As he says, a key element of this failure is the sense of separatism that now grips too many Muslim communities.
However much his critics may sneer at his accusations, the fact is that the determination of some of my fellow Muslims to cling to certain lifestyles, customs, languages and practices has helped to create neighbourhoods where non-Muslims may feel uncomfortable, even intimidated.
Such anxieties can only be reinforced by the dominant influence of the mosques, which are often in the hands of fundamentalists and thereby promote a conscious rejection of Western values.
pervasive is this radicalism that in some mosques worshippers feel uncomfortable if they enter wearing a suit rather than the more traditional Islamic dress.
As the bishop says, this can only be a recipe for more social exclusion. Anyone who lives in British society should be grateful for the freedom and tolerance they enjoy. They should not seek to exploit this by demanding the universal acceptance of fundamentalism in their own neighbourhoods.
The heavy Islamic influence in parts of Britain amounts to a severe indictment of the dogma of multi-culturalism, which held sway in our public institutions since the early eighties.
Instead of promoting a sense of mutual belonging and shared understanding, this doctrine has sown the seeds of division and suspicion by discouraging allegiance to a unified British identity.
Instead, people from ethnic minorities and non-Christian faiths were urged to cling to their own cultures. The differences between creeds and races were to be celebrated rather than bridged.
But, as the Bishop of Rochester has pointed out, the malign consequences of this ideology can now be seen not only in the spirit of separateness that hangs over some Muslim-dominated areas, but also in the more devastating arrival of home-grown terrorism, which feeds on an aggressive rejection of western values.
Multi-culturalism was meant to build a unified society. "Together in diversity" was one its slogans. But instead it has achieved the opposite-promoting division and distrust-which has been exacerbated by Islamic extremism.
The horrors of the London Tube bombings in 2005 and the attacks at Glasgow airport and a West End nightclub can be blamed directly on this perverted version of violent radicalism.
After all, France and Germany have just as large Muslim populations as Britain but have not had the same problems with terrorism, and that is because their governments have never pretended that tolerating extremism is a social virtue.
Yet still, even after all the lessons of recent years, the Labour government has refused to abandon multi-culturalism. Instead it has merely presented this outlook under a new name, describing it as "multi-faithism".
Again, this is supposed to be the ideology that will bring us all together and combat extremism. So the Government is now pouring money into 'multi-faith' schemes, promoting Muslim schools, projects and community centres.
Only yesterday, it was revealed that Communities Secretary Hazel Blears is planning to spend part of her £70million budget for antiextremism on "assertiveness training courses" for Muslim women, the idea being that women inculcated with western feminist values will be in a stronger position to challenge the young male zealots.
Well, there is no evidence to support this idea. And in reality, it will only promote the feeling that Muslims receive special treatment, with the Government doling out cash because it is terrified of Islamic violence.
Home-grown terrorism seems to have its rewards.
s particularly depressing is that the Church of England has gone along with this fashion-for multi-faithism, partly as a way of shoring up its own position, partly as a vehicle for compelling Islam into accepting the embrace of the British state machine.
But it did not work with multi-culturalism, which has proved a battering ram against Britain's Christian heritage, and this new version will be no more successful, not least because there is no monolithic Muslim establishment to be dragooned into service for the Government.
Multi-culturalism has backfired spectacularly. The disturbing rise of the political far Right has been a direct result and I predict that the new incarnation, multi-faithism, will be just as damaging.
What we really need is not special treatment for Muslims and endless appeasement, but genuine equality. That is supposed to be the bedrock of our modern democratic society.
We should turn it into a reality before our society fractures even more.
*** Perhaps you will call him a fanatic too.
Del Boy.
Now, Inferno had taken up the issue of dsicrimination, and I have been keen to establish that Britain does not discriminate against Muslims, which was/is the implication.
And in reply to him I put the question under discussion :
"As for discrimination - in how many Islamic countries can a church be BUILT, or churchbells rung, or Christian festivals celebrated, or people allowed to choose accept religions other than Islam? (that is - to convert from Islam.)"
The answer to all four, taken together,is, of course, very, very few, if any.
Il suggested Turkey - a good answer, but Turkey is secular, and while they may HAVE christian churches, that is not the same as allowing churches to be BUILT, and I would be surprised if it could be proved that they are accepting of Muslims choosing to change religion. If it is indeed acceptable there, then they would be the exception.
Indonesia was suggested, but of course Indonesia has large minorities of other faiths, but the christians are now under attack and I repeat the comments I made regarding Turkey.
Inferno's list of eight would not not pass the test regarding christian church building or religion changing, even if they scrapedthrough on the other two.
The fact is that the old Muslim world of the Golden Age is no longer with us, the Muslims of these countries are no longer famed for their tolerance, and they do, in fact, discriminate against christians.
And the strange thing is that even ALL of the regimes mentioned in the answers given , with the exception of Iran, are themselves under threat from extreme militant Islam.
WHAT a difference from the situation in, say, my country, where no religious practices of Muslims are banned , they have been encouraged actually. And if christians wish to become Muslims, their right to do so is recognised. And new mosques are established daily.
So just let's get it right here, Britain does not discriminate against Muslims. It can be safely said that the boot is in fact on the other foot. And it is now happening here.
So I am concerned when it is carelessly insinuated that descrimination is the problem here, and I object to to being accused of fanaticism, racism and intolerance when the opposite is the truth.
Here I have posted many sound reports to support my position, all completely ignored as far as I can see, some from prominent and respected Muslims of authority in race relations, who send the same message as I do, AND I PRODUCE THE LATEST OF THESE BELOW.
.
- Why the Bishop of Rochester is right about 'no-go' areas for non-muslims in Britain
By MANZOOR MOGHAL, chairman of the Muslim Forum - Last updated at 10:26am on 7th January 2008
Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali's warning that Islamic extremism is creating 'no-go' areas in parts of Britain has provoked a predictable barrage of outrage.
He has been condemned for making 'inflammatory' remarks, distorting the truth about our inner cities and 'scaremongering' against the Muslim population.
But, paradoxically, this reaction from the politically-correct establishment is an indicator of the weight of his case. If our ruling elite were not so worried that his views would strike a chord with the public, it would not have been so anxious to condemn him. His statement about the dangers of the rise of radical Islam matches the reality of what people see in our cities and towns, where the influence of hardliners is undermining harmony and promoting segregation.
Yet in this case, I feel he is correct in highlighting the problem of cultural apartheid that is developing in some of our urban areas.
It is not good enough just to dismiss his opinions and hope that the whole issue will go away, for the failure to achieve real integration in our society is far too serious an issue to be ignored.
As he says, a key element of this failure is the sense of separatism that now grips too many Muslim communities.
However much his critics may sneer at his accusations, the fact is that the determination of some of my fellow Muslims to cling to certain lifestyles, customs, languages and practices has helped to create neighbourhoods where non-Muslims may feel uncomfortable, even intimidated.
Such anxieties can only be reinforced by the dominant influence of the mosques, which are often in the hands of fundamentalists and thereby promote a conscious rejection of Western values.
pervasive is this radicalism that in some mosques worshippers feel uncomfortable if they enter wearing a suit rather than the more traditional Islamic dress.
As the bishop says, this can only be a recipe for more social exclusion. Anyone who lives in British society should be grateful for the freedom and tolerance they enjoy. They should not seek to exploit this by demanding the universal acceptance of fundamentalism in their own neighbourhoods.
The heavy Islamic influence in parts of Britain amounts to a severe indictment of the dogma of multi-culturalism, which held sway in our public institutions since the early eighties.
Instead of promoting a sense of mutual belonging and shared understanding, this doctrine has sown the seeds of division and suspicion by discouraging allegiance to a unified British identity.
Instead, people from ethnic minorities and non-Christian faiths were urged to cling to their own cultures. The differences between creeds and races were to be celebrated rather than bridged.
But, as the Bishop of Rochester has pointed out, the malign consequences of this ideology can now be seen not only in the spirit of separateness that hangs over some Muslim-dominated areas, but also in the more devastating arrival of home-grown terrorism, which feeds on an aggressive rejection of western values.
Multi-culturalism was meant to build a unified society. "Together in diversity" was one its slogans. But instead it has achieved the opposite-promoting division and distrust-which has been exacerbated by Islamic extremism.
The horrors of the London Tube bombings in 2005 and the attacks at Glasgow airport and a West End nightclub can be blamed directly on this perverted version of violent radicalism.
After all, France and Germany have just as large Muslim populations as Britain but have not had the same problems with terrorism, and that is because their governments have never pretended that tolerating extremism is a social virtue.
Yet still, even after all the lessons of recent years, the Labour government has refused to abandon multi-culturalism. Instead it has merely presented this outlook under a new name, describing it as "multi-faithism".
Again, this is supposed to be the ideology that will bring us all together and combat extremism. So the Government is now pouring money into 'multi-faith' schemes, promoting Muslim schools, projects and community centres.
Only yesterday, it was revealed that Communities Secretary Hazel Blears is planning to spend part of her £70million budget for antiextremism on "assertiveness training courses" for Muslim women, the idea being that women inculcated with western feminist values will be in a stronger position to challenge the young male zealots.
Well, there is no evidence to support this idea. And in reality, it will only promote the feeling that Muslims receive special treatment, with the Government doling out cash because it is terrified of Islamic violence.
Home-grown terrorism seems to have its rewards.
s particularly depressing is that the Church of England has gone along with this fashion-for multi-faithism, partly as a way of shoring up its own position, partly as a vehicle for compelling Islam into accepting the embrace of the British state machine.
But it did not work with multi-culturalism, which has proved a battering ram against Britain's Christian heritage, and this new version will be no more successful, not least because there is no monolithic Muslim establishment to be dragooned into service for the Government.
Multi-culturalism has backfired spectacularly. The disturbing rise of the political far Right has been a direct result and I predict that the new incarnation, multi-faithism, will be just as damaging.
What we really need is not special treatment for Muslims and endless appeasement, but genuine equality. That is supposed to be the bedrock of our modern democratic society.
We should turn it into a reality before our society fractures even more.
*** Perhaps you will call him a fanatic too.
Del Boy.
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senojekips
Active member
I get the feeling that we are all stuck on some fiendish, out of control round about.
Once again and for the last time. I have read all of the preceding posts and as far as I can see your questions HAVE been answered. Your endless rephrasing and reiterating will not alter that, nor it appears will it convince anyone that you are correct. You do have some points, but your overall argument is deeply flawed in my view, and also it appears with anyone else who has bothered to read this thread.
Maybe this will help.
Once again and for the last time. I have read all of the preceding posts and as far as I can see your questions HAVE been answered. Your endless rephrasing and reiterating will not alter that, nor it appears will it convince anyone that you are correct. You do have some points, but your overall argument is deeply flawed in my view, and also it appears with anyone else who has bothered to read this thread.
Maybe this will help.
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senojekips
Active member
If you can't see it from the responses you have received in this thread, I'm afraid it is beyond my capabilities, plus I don't wish to get involved in your revolving door debates.
Your seeming lack of comprehension and unwillingness to attempt to understand what others have said in this thread has convinced me that you don't want debate but merely to promote your own pet theories, and to be blunt, I'm not interested. I agree in the greater part with Inferno et al.
You seem to use a variation of the old lawyers ploy, if you can't win the point, you just tie up your opponents with endless trivialities so that their case cannot move forward.
I only entered this "argy bargy" to express my disbelief at your continuing unwillingness to accept that your questions had been answered. Other than that I want no part in it, it is your hobby horse not mine.
Your seeming lack of comprehension and unwillingness to attempt to understand what others have said in this thread has convinced me that you don't want debate but merely to promote your own pet theories, and to be blunt, I'm not interested. I agree in the greater part with Inferno et al.
You seem to use a variation of the old lawyers ploy, if you can't win the point, you just tie up your opponents with endless trivialities so that their case cannot move forward.
I only entered this "argy bargy" to express my disbelief at your continuing unwillingness to accept that your questions had been answered. Other than that I want no part in it, it is your hobby horse not mine.
Why am I not surprised? You can make little speeches but it is, according to you, beyond your capabilities to be specific regarding the 'deep flaws' in my argument. Obviously you yourself have no counter, even when invited to submit it.
You can only toss insults at me, but that is no substitute for fact and truth. You have been unprepared to make the slightest point in any argument you can put forward to oppose my case.
So why should I have the slightest respect for such an attitude, particularly when you attack views you don't like by staying outside p****** in.
If you wanted to dismiss my case, you should have put up - or shut up.
I remind you of fact & truth, in the reports of the below highly respected and involved Muslims. Do you dismiss their views too, allied as they are to mine:-
By MANZOOR MOGHAL, chairman of the Muslim Forum - Last updated at 10:26am on 7th January 2008
Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali's warning that Islamic extremism is creating 'no-go' areas in parts of Britain has provoked a predictable barrage of outrage. Yet in this case, I feel he is correct in highlighting the problem of cultural apartheid that is developing in some of our urban areas.
Fly the flag: Shahid Malik - International Development Minister –
**Muslims living in Britain enjoyed greater freedoms than anywhere in the Islamic world, the MP added..**
The Labour MP's comments :-
Mr Malik said: "My message to young Muslims is 'Be proud to be English and don't let anyone steal your identity away. This is one of the greatest nations in the world and we should be proud to live here - let's shout about it a bit more'."
A former member of the Commission for Racial Equality, he has advised the Government on community issues. One of the four 7/7 suicide bombers was from his Dewsbury constituency. **Mr Malik added last night: "The rights and freedoms we enjoy in England and the UK are better than any other country in the world for Muslims, better than any country in the Islamic world." **
Trevor Phillips, head of Race Relations, has told us – multi-culturalism has failed.
Facts & truth, my friend, facts & truth. Hostile rhetoric is no substitute.
So - to sum up regarding my argument on this thread.
I am against religious schools as devisive. I regard the addition of 100 Muslim schools as extremely divisive, dangerous even, given our experience. I have nothing against Islam itself, but I am in a stance of defence against the extreme militant Islamic ideology of this moment in time, wherever it exists.
Discrimination here is loaded against the christian poulation already, but I am not a supporter of discrimination, I do not support the addition of any religious schools whatsoever.
So there you go - that's me done, senojekips , you had no stomach for a debate re. the facts at issue. Personally, therefore , I no longer have any interest in your opinion , your insults, and your attempt at character assassination (always the last resort), on this thread, to which I have devoted a great deal of care and effort.
"Deeply flawed "? Please don't make me laugh!
You can only toss insults at me, but that is no substitute for fact and truth. You have been unprepared to make the slightest point in any argument you can put forward to oppose my case.
So why should I have the slightest respect for such an attitude, particularly when you attack views you don't like by staying outside p****** in.
If you wanted to dismiss my case, you should have put up - or shut up.
I remind you of fact & truth, in the reports of the below highly respected and involved Muslims. Do you dismiss their views too, allied as they are to mine:-
By MANZOOR MOGHAL, chairman of the Muslim Forum - Last updated at 10:26am on 7th January 2008
Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali's warning that Islamic extremism is creating 'no-go' areas in parts of Britain has provoked a predictable barrage of outrage. Yet in this case, I feel he is correct in highlighting the problem of cultural apartheid that is developing in some of our urban areas.
Fly the flag: Shahid Malik - International Development Minister –
**Muslims living in Britain enjoyed greater freedoms than anywhere in the Islamic world, the MP added..**
The Labour MP's comments :-
Mr Malik said: "My message to young Muslims is 'Be proud to be English and don't let anyone steal your identity away. This is one of the greatest nations in the world and we should be proud to live here - let's shout about it a bit more'."
A former member of the Commission for Racial Equality, he has advised the Government on community issues. One of the four 7/7 suicide bombers was from his Dewsbury constituency. **Mr Malik added last night: "The rights and freedoms we enjoy in England and the UK are better than any other country in the world for Muslims, better than any country in the Islamic world." **
Trevor Phillips, head of Race Relations, has told us – multi-culturalism has failed.
Facts & truth, my friend, facts & truth. Hostile rhetoric is no substitute.
So - to sum up regarding my argument on this thread.
I am against religious schools as devisive. I regard the addition of 100 Muslim schools as extremely divisive, dangerous even, given our experience. I have nothing against Islam itself, but I am in a stance of defence against the extreme militant Islamic ideology of this moment in time, wherever it exists.
Discrimination here is loaded against the christian poulation already, but I am not a supporter of discrimination, I do not support the addition of any religious schools whatsoever.
So there you go - that's me done, senojekips , you had no stomach for a debate re. the facts at issue. Personally, therefore , I no longer have any interest in your opinion , your insults, and your attempt at character assassination (always the last resort), on this thread, to which I have devoted a great deal of care and effort.
"Deeply flawed "? Please don't make me laugh!
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
So religious schools are divisive?
Christians are being discriminated against?
Then how is it you have not mentioned the RC and COE schools of Britain they far outnumber the Muslim schools surely they are the greater threat to unity?
http://www.culham.ac.uk/CS_stud/cs_maps/maps5schools.html
Looks to me like there are more religious schools in Tyne and Wear than there are Muslim schools planned so maybe you can go sort them out first or is this as many suspect another anti-Muslim rant from someone doing a little of their own discriminating?
I am sure with your phenomenal powers of deductive reasoning and over riding desire to be open minded you will now see at least one of the flaws in your argument.
senojekips
Active member
Del Boy, you're doing it again, in my last post, I stated in a manner which I think would be quite clear to all but the most obtuse.
(1) I only entered this "argy bargy" to express my disbelief at your continuing unwillingness to accept that your questions had been answered. Other than that I want no part in it, it is your hobby horse not mine.
(2) I don't wish to get involved in your "revolving door" debates.
It appears once again that you either do not read, or do not (wish to) acknowledge the answers of others.
This being the very reason why I initially got involved, and is also the reason why will not try to debate you.
(1) I only entered this "argy bargy" to express my disbelief at your continuing unwillingness to accept that your questions had been answered. Other than that I want no part in it, it is your hobby horse not mine.
(2) I don't wish to get involved in your "revolving door" debates.
It appears once again that you either do not read, or do not (wish to) acknowledge the answers of others.
This being the very reason why I initially got involved, and is also the reason why will not try to debate you.
Referring to the last two posts.
MontyB - There is no flaw. I do not approve of religious schools as you do.
And as I said, I am particularly standing firm at this particular time.
Please don't claim that I am ranting against Muslims. I am for coming together and not for division. Do you consider the facts and the truth of the reports from respected Muslims , with the same concerns as me,also to be rants? Gimme a break!
Furthermore, I think I afforded you plenty of time to respond earlier don't you, I have no wish to give you more of my time on this thread.
Senojekips - read and digest the above message to Monty - the same applies to you. You had your chance and declined.
My posts on this thread stand as my contribution. Refer to them whenever you wish. As far as this thread is concerned, I'm gone.
Time is money,chaps, remember. Good evening.
PS. REDNECK - these guys never did leave me room to tell you - but your post on this thread was the best response on here, and I was close to buying it. The situation you described is one I have not come across, but I can appreciate the problems. At my school, postwar east end of London, everybody worked together, except for religious lesson time, when we split , the RC boys to their lessons, the Jewish boys went off for their Hebrew etc, and we stayed where we were and the teacher came to us. Seamless, painless, hardly noticed. Never ever heard it discussed, second nature.
And in the army - the same. 1000 men from 'no mean city' Glasgow - half RC half Unionists - supposedly deadly enemies. Never heard it mentioned in years. All for one, one for all. They fought quite a lot amongst themselves, especially in drink, but NEVER about religion. And that was in Egypt.
MontyB - There is no flaw. I do not approve of religious schools as you do.
And as I said, I am particularly standing firm at this particular time.
Please don't claim that I am ranting against Muslims. I am for coming together and not for division. Do you consider the facts and the truth of the reports from respected Muslims , with the same concerns as me,also to be rants? Gimme a break!
Furthermore, I think I afforded you plenty of time to respond earlier don't you, I have no wish to give you more of my time on this thread.
Senojekips - read and digest the above message to Monty - the same applies to you. You had your chance and declined.
My posts on this thread stand as my contribution. Refer to them whenever you wish. As far as this thread is concerned, I'm gone.
Time is money,chaps, remember. Good evening.
PS. REDNECK - these guys never did leave me room to tell you - but your post on this thread was the best response on here, and I was close to buying it. The situation you described is one I have not come across, but I can appreciate the problems. At my school, postwar east end of London, everybody worked together, except for religious lesson time, when we split , the RC boys to their lessons, the Jewish boys went off for their Hebrew etc, and we stayed where we were and the teacher came to us. Seamless, painless, hardly noticed. Never ever heard it discussed, second nature.
And in the army - the same. 1000 men from 'no mean city' Glasgow - half RC half Unionists - supposedly deadly enemies. Never heard it mentioned in years. All for one, one for all. They fought quite a lot amongst themselves, especially in drink, but NEVER about religion. And that was in Egypt.
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senojekips
Active member
My last post stands.
Stands for what ? B/S? It is complete hogwash, designed especially to block debate. When you have nothing to put forward, simply throw insults and blackguard your opponents point of view, without being able to understand it or respond to it. Empty, lost rhetoric at its worst; a total waste of space.
***
NOW THIS, on the other hand, is cold fact, and yet another reason for my concerns over the introduction of more purely Muslim schools.
Or am I discriminating against the poor chap.? Or perhaps I am just ranting again?? What sort of education is this?
9 Jan 2008News
The dentist terrorist: British Muslim who planned to murder UK troops jailed
By CHARLOTTE GILL - More by this author » Last updated at 23:43pm on 8th January 2008
Jailed: Qualified dentist Sohail Qureshi
When he was stopped at Heathrow, dentist Sohail Qureshi claimed he was flying to Pakistan to celebrate the Muslim festival of Eid with his family.
The haul of weapons, cash and terror handbooks he was carrying however told a much more sinister story.
An Islamic extremist, the 30-year-old was in fact on his way to fight for the Taliban against British troops.
In an email to a contact before he left Qureshi wrote: "Pray that I kill many, brother. Revenge, revenge, revenge."
Yesterday he became the first person to be convicted under tough new anti-terror laws.
However it emerged he could be out of jail in a year.
The Old Bailey heard Qureshi was arrested in October 2006 carrying a night-vision scope, two metal batons and two rucksacks.
He also had medical supplies, CD roms containing extremist material and £9,000 in cash hidden in seven envelopes around his body.
Qureshi, who arrived in the UK from Russia in 2004, boasted he had been sent to Britain by Al Qaeda for terrorist fundraising.
He kept snapshots of himself holding an M16 rifle and an AK47, both thought
to be have been taken in Pakistan when he attended a terror training camp.
He was also in email contact with Samina Malik, the so-called "lyrical terrorist" who wrote poems about her desire for martyrdom.
Militant: Qureshi parades with an AK47. He was arrested boarding the plane to Pakistan with nearly £9,000 in cash, a night sight, and military information stored on computer discs
Malik, a WHSmith employee who worked airside at Heathrow, was given a suspended jail sentence in November.
Shortly before his arrest, Qureshi, from Forest Gate, East London, asked her in an email: "Sis, I hope you get this email before anyone else. What is the system like at work? Is the checking still very harsh or have things calmed down a bit?"
Qureshi was jailed for four and a half years yesterday but could be out on parole in a year.
He is expected to serve half his sentence and has already been on remand for 14 months.
He pleaded guilty to preparing an act of terrorism, possessing an article for terrorist purposes and possessing a record of information likely to be useful to terrorists.
Prosecutor Jonathan Sharp said: "Sohail Qureshi is a dedicated supporter of Islamic extremism.
"He intended after a brief visit to his family to travel either to Pakistan, Waziristan or Afghanistan and to seek an opportunity to engage in terrorist action."
Police had Qureshi under surveillance when he contacted Malik to ask about security.
Qureshi poses with an assault rifle
When he was arrested, he was carrying a U.S. Marine and Canadian forces manual, a chapter from an autobiographical book he had written called My Father the Bombmaker, a copy of the Poisoner's Handbook, a picture of him holding an M16 and "motivational Islamist material" stored on a CD.
Documents found on the hard drive in his luggage included field manuals on camouflage and how to conduct military operations in severe and cold winter conditions.
Qureshi had described his intentions to carry out terrorist activities on an extremist web forum.
"I am not going for good as far as I know, it is only a 14 to 20 day operation, if it's in Pak, Afg or Waz," he wrote.
He also posted a "farewell" letter, anonymously, on an Islamist website.
In it, he admitted raising thousands of pounds from sympathisers in the UK which he intended to give to the cause as "bullets cost money".
The court heard Qureshi was born in Pakistan and grew up in Saudi Arabia, where his father worked as an engineer. He also lived in Russia for seven years.
A qualified dentist, he arrived in Britain in 2004 and worked as a dental assistant in Barking, East London, because his qualifications were not recognised here.
The Common Serjeant of London, Judge Brian Barker QC told him: "Any form of terrorism, whatever it is and wherever it is, is an affront to civilisation and can lead to untold grief and destruction."
In emails disclosed by Scotland Yard, Qureshi said that in 1996 he trained at an Al Qaeda camp in Pakistan and was briefly the "emir" of another camp in 1998.
Met Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke said: "Qureshi is a trained and committed terrorist, who by his own admission had contacts within Al Qaeda.
"He wanted to carry out terrorist acts overseas and gathered the equipment to help him do this. He was no amateur.
***
NOW THIS, on the other hand, is cold fact, and yet another reason for my concerns over the introduction of more purely Muslim schools.
Or am I discriminating against the poor chap.? Or perhaps I am just ranting again?? What sort of education is this?
9 Jan 2008News
The dentist terrorist: British Muslim who planned to murder UK troops jailed
By CHARLOTTE GILL - More by this author » Last updated at 23:43pm on 8th January 2008
Jailed: Qualified dentist Sohail Qureshi
When he was stopped at Heathrow, dentist Sohail Qureshi claimed he was flying to Pakistan to celebrate the Muslim festival of Eid with his family.
The haul of weapons, cash and terror handbooks he was carrying however told a much more sinister story.
An Islamic extremist, the 30-year-old was in fact on his way to fight for the Taliban against British troops.
In an email to a contact before he left Qureshi wrote: "Pray that I kill many, brother. Revenge, revenge, revenge."
Yesterday he became the first person to be convicted under tough new anti-terror laws.
However it emerged he could be out of jail in a year.
The Old Bailey heard Qureshi was arrested in October 2006 carrying a night-vision scope, two metal batons and two rucksacks.
He also had medical supplies, CD roms containing extremist material and £9,000 in cash hidden in seven envelopes around his body.
Qureshi, who arrived in the UK from Russia in 2004, boasted he had been sent to Britain by Al Qaeda for terrorist fundraising.
He kept snapshots of himself holding an M16 rifle and an AK47, both thought
to be have been taken in Pakistan when he attended a terror training camp.
He was also in email contact with Samina Malik, the so-called "lyrical terrorist" who wrote poems about her desire for martyrdom.
Militant: Qureshi parades with an AK47. He was arrested boarding the plane to Pakistan with nearly £9,000 in cash, a night sight, and military information stored on computer discs
Malik, a WHSmith employee who worked airside at Heathrow, was given a suspended jail sentence in November.
Shortly before his arrest, Qureshi, from Forest Gate, East London, asked her in an email: "Sis, I hope you get this email before anyone else. What is the system like at work? Is the checking still very harsh or have things calmed down a bit?"
Qureshi was jailed for four and a half years yesterday but could be out on parole in a year.
He is expected to serve half his sentence and has already been on remand for 14 months.
He pleaded guilty to preparing an act of terrorism, possessing an article for terrorist purposes and possessing a record of information likely to be useful to terrorists.
Prosecutor Jonathan Sharp said: "Sohail Qureshi is a dedicated supporter of Islamic extremism.
"He intended after a brief visit to his family to travel either to Pakistan, Waziristan or Afghanistan and to seek an opportunity to engage in terrorist action."
Police had Qureshi under surveillance when he contacted Malik to ask about security.
Qureshi poses with an assault rifle
When he was arrested, he was carrying a U.S. Marine and Canadian forces manual, a chapter from an autobiographical book he had written called My Father the Bombmaker, a copy of the Poisoner's Handbook, a picture of him holding an M16 and "motivational Islamist material" stored on a CD.
Documents found on the hard drive in his luggage included field manuals on camouflage and how to conduct military operations in severe and cold winter conditions.
Qureshi had described his intentions to carry out terrorist activities on an extremist web forum.
"I am not going for good as far as I know, it is only a 14 to 20 day operation, if it's in Pak, Afg or Waz," he wrote.
He also posted a "farewell" letter, anonymously, on an Islamist website.
In it, he admitted raising thousands of pounds from sympathisers in the UK which he intended to give to the cause as "bullets cost money".
The court heard Qureshi was born in Pakistan and grew up in Saudi Arabia, where his father worked as an engineer. He also lived in Russia for seven years.
A qualified dentist, he arrived in Britain in 2004 and worked as a dental assistant in Barking, East London, because his qualifications were not recognised here.
The Common Serjeant of London, Judge Brian Barker QC told him: "Any form of terrorism, whatever it is and wherever it is, is an affront to civilisation and can lead to untold grief and destruction."
In emails disclosed by Scotland Yard, Qureshi said that in 1996 he trained at an Al Qaeda camp in Pakistan and was briefly the "emir" of another camp in 1998.
Met Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke said: "Qureshi is a trained and committed terrorist, who by his own admission had contacts within Al Qaeda.
"He wanted to carry out terrorist acts overseas and gathered the equipment to help him do this. He was no amateur.
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senojekips
Active member
If you read my post I have said quite clearly why I refuse to debate you (twice).
So my previous post still stands. I have reduced my answers to the simplest statements i can, however you still don't understand. Why don't you ask if anyone else can understand my answers?
So my previous post still stands. I have reduced my answers to the simplest statements i can, however you still don't understand. Why don't you ask if anyone else can understand my answers?
Oh yes, iIhave read clearly and I understand clearly, that is that you attacked my argument as 'deeply flawed' but when invited to point out how and where, wouldn't or more probably couldn't do so. Furthermore, you failed to produce any argument of your own!
That spells bluster to me and I consider it a waste of time; a sad stance for a man of your calibre.
On that basis I am happy stand aside and leave the thread to continue with the views of those with something to offer, on the topic in hand.
For my part, I am pleased to back my concerns on -topic with very informative and careful studies of the situation we face here, explaining why I am not in support of anything which adds to division in my country.
That spells bluster to me and I consider it a waste of time; a sad stance for a man of your calibre.
On that basis I am happy stand aside and leave the thread to continue with the views of those with something to offer, on the topic in hand.
For my part, I am pleased to back my concerns on -topic with very informative and careful studies of the situation we face here, explaining why I am not in support of anything which adds to division in my country.
senojekips
Active member
Well Del Boy, you did keep asking, so I will tell you.
It is MY considered opinion that on this subject, you are no more than a scaremonger and very thinly disguised racist.
That is why your argument is deeply flawed.
Now,... don't whine about it, as I had no intention of putting it in the public forum, but you did keep badgering me about it.
This is my opinion and as such you can't dispute it, it is MY opinion not yours.
It is MY considered opinion that on this subject, you are no more than a scaremonger and very thinly disguised racist.
That is why your argument is deeply flawed.
Now,... don't whine about it, as I had no intention of putting it in the public forum, but you did keep badgering me about it.
This is my opinion and as such you can't dispute it, it is MY opinion not yours.
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Senojekips -
Now why would I whine about your stupid nonsense. That is not a counter to an argument, that is just a weak insult. I will merely stop being polite to you now.
Your reply is simply rubbish - you totally avoid responding to my argument on-topic. You think you can insult me and in that way claim that my argument is flawed - the point is that you are completely incapable of saying where,why or how!!
And you are obviously not capable of putting forward an opposing point of view.
On this score your stance is weak, fraudulent, unworthy of respect, and that of a loser , I'm afraid.
Obviously you have never read these threads properly, for you scurrilously smear, with the same disgusting bile, every respected Muslim leader who has had the concerns they share with me posted on this thread . I suppose you foolishly brand them as scare-mongers and thinly disguised racists too! (Well, I am actually the exact opposite of a racist - but we can't say the same about all of us, can we?? Now c'mon - be honest.)
I suggest you stop trying to smother this thread with your mud-slinging. You have nothing sensible to say on the subject.
As for the poison you have aimed at me, I can only compare it only to being savaged by a dead sheep. Your opinion of me is of no concern whatsoever personally, and your opinion on the subject at hand is non-existent.
You are most welcome to stand on your posts here , as you say; I am sure they must be a credit to you.
(By the way - that last strange red line about your opinion - do I have your permission to ignore it as rubbish, or permission to laugh , please.)
Now kindly stop making me laugh, as I wish to continue on this thread, and you are wasting my time. Sorry to become impolite, old chap, but you did invite a little straight talking.
Del Boy
Now why would I whine about your stupid nonsense. That is not a counter to an argument, that is just a weak insult. I will merely stop being polite to you now.
Your reply is simply rubbish - you totally avoid responding to my argument on-topic. You think you can insult me and in that way claim that my argument is flawed - the point is that you are completely incapable of saying where,why or how!!
And you are obviously not capable of putting forward an opposing point of view.
On this score your stance is weak, fraudulent, unworthy of respect, and that of a loser , I'm afraid.
Obviously you have never read these threads properly, for you scurrilously smear, with the same disgusting bile, every respected Muslim leader who has had the concerns they share with me posted on this thread . I suppose you foolishly brand them as scare-mongers and thinly disguised racists too! (Well, I am actually the exact opposite of a racist - but we can't say the same about all of us, can we?? Now c'mon - be honest.)
I suggest you stop trying to smother this thread with your mud-slinging. You have nothing sensible to say on the subject.
As for the poison you have aimed at me, I can only compare it only to being savaged by a dead sheep. Your opinion of me is of no concern whatsoever personally, and your opinion on the subject at hand is non-existent.
You are most welcome to stand on your posts here , as you say; I am sure they must be a credit to you.
(By the way - that last strange red line about your opinion - do I have your permission to ignore it as rubbish, or permission to laugh , please.)
Now kindly stop making me laugh, as I wish to continue on this thread, and you are wasting my time. Sorry to become impolite, old chap, but you did invite a little straight talking.
Del Boy
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