Disgracefully lenient sentence for Haditha murderer

[VDKMS]

I dunno what sevice you were in, from your answers here I'd hazard a guess at, The Salvation Army? In most countries other than where you signed up, you sign up to "Serve" that means you do what your country expects of you, and if you are sent to a war zone, the enemy are often found to be quite grumpy about it all and are often somewhat antisocial in their behaviour towards you. It goes with the Job description. If you expected the enemy to throw cream cakes at you, you were in the wrong job.

I'll believe you if you can provide a credible source that shows they were ordered to execute innocent women and children. Until then, No! they did not do as they were told. I think that you might find their own UCMJ has something to say about this behaviour.

It never is, but the fact remains these murderers executed innocent women and children in cold blood. And there is not a single mitigating circumstance in the information found, in fact it is virtually all condemnatory right down to the facts that the info itself was supposed to have been destroyed, and never seen the light of day, the atrocity was lied about (caused by grenades) and the admission the the command structure has become far too off hand regarding civilian casualties.

Not at all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Perhaps it was not premeditated in this case, we'll never really know, but that does not make it manslaughter, it was deliberate murder, and the perpetrators knew that it was a crime against the UCMJ and Geneva Conventions,... they just didn't think that they'd be caught.

You fail to understand under which conditions they had to operate. Put the guy who placed the IED next to a innocent civilian and you cannot see the difference (which is in violation of laws of war). And if that civilian also has a personal AK-47 then mistakes are easily made. Maybe you are the superhuman who knows in advance who is who and how they will react or , if not, are you going to ask very politely who the terrorist is?
Did you ever thought about the fact why the bomb was placed nearby civilian homes? And how would you react if they just blew up your friend?

 

[VDKMS]

To be honest you got what you deserved on this one, to argue what they did was wrong but nothing should be done about it because you want to look after your own is a position that deserves the kick in the nuts it got.

I disagree. lolwhassup never approved the killings but pointed to the circumstances, and I agree with him. When you talk about justice you must also take the circumstances into consideration.

 

[MontyB]

I disagree. lolwhassup never approved the killings but pointed to the circumstances, and I agree with him. When you talk about justice you must also take the circumstances into consideration.

You are incorrect, a thief is a thief, a murderer is a murderer the law should not take circumstances into account sentencing should, but then I have read your posts around the forums and realise that you would find a good word for the devil if he was fighting Islam so I didn't expect a different response from you.

In short I suspect you are a man with a mission.

 

[senojekips]

You fail to understand under which conditions they had to operate.

No, quite simply, I don't misunderstand anything. They operate under the auspices of the Geneva Conventions and their own Uniform Code of Military Justice.

The act that was committed here was pure barbarism and there is no excuse for it. 99.999% of troops uphold their obligations.

One wrongful killing may be an accident,... but 24 obviously unarmed civilians including women and children?..... You feel that it would be difficult to establish if pre-school aged children are armed terrorists? You are clearly either delusional, or most likely a liar, making childish excuses.

Once again, you are no more than an limp wristed apologist for murderers. You need to grow up, and enter the 20th century then maybe we'll try for the 21st.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

No, quite simply, I don't misunderstand anything. They operate under the auspices of the Geneva Conventions and their own Uniform Code of Military Justice.

The act that was committed here was pure barbarism and there is no excuse for it. 99.999% of troops uphold their obligations.

One wrongful killing may be an accident,... but 24 obviously unarmed civilians including women and children?..... You feel that it would be difficult to establish if pre-school aged children are armed terrorists? You are clearly either delusional, or most likely a liar, making childish excuses.

Once again, you are no more than an limp wristed apologist for murderers. You need to grow up, and enter the 20th century then maybe we'll try for the 21st.

They were killed inside a house, were they not? I have seen a documentary about this, a long time ago. (CBS 60 Minutes) and read something briefly about this event. The Marines were hit by an IED and then by small arms fire from a building complex. The Marines assaulted the building and killed everyone inside, right? How could they know who were inside that building? If the insurgents responsible for the ambush had left the building, we cannot know that. The normal routine for an ambush, if it is longer than 5 seconds, it is failed ambush (we were trained in similar fashion as the Finns when they were fighting the Russians during the winter war 1939-40) you are dead if it takes longer than 5 sec, so they could have regrouped, the insurgents were not stupid. Then the Marines assaulting the building, you do not open doors and check who is there; if you do you may get a 7.62 in your body. Then something about these Marines, they had taken casualties and the adrenaline is pumping in their bodies. Countries can train and educate their soldiers, nevertheless, we cannot remove the fact they are all humans, with all the strengths and weaknesses we all have. They made the wrong decision at this time, it is not an excuse for what they did, and they reacted to the situation and responded to the information and the interpretation of this information. The Marines and soldiers are humans and under the uniform we have what we call here "the Bird Chest" and there is a frightened little heart

 

[senojekips]

They were killed inside a house, were they not? ---snip---

Everyone is killed somewhere, the location has no place in the argument here, it is reason why it was done and the fact that it happened at all that is under scrutiny.

Before you go off surmising what night have happened, I think you should perhaps read what is known and what has been admitted to.

What happened was deliberate and absolutely inexcusable.

 

[RayManKiller3]

They were killed inside a house, were they not? I have seen a documentary about this, a long time ago. (CBS 60 Minutes) and read something briefly about this event. The Marines were hit by an IED and then by small arms fire from a building complex. The Marines assaulted the building and killed everyone inside, right? How could they know who were inside that building? If the insurgents responsible for the ambush had left the building, we cannot know that. The normal routine for an ambush, if it is longer than 5 seconds, it is failed ambush (we were trained in similar fashion as the Finns when they were fighting the Russians during the winter war 1939-40) you are dead if it takes longer than 5 sec, so they could have regrouped, the insurgents were not stupid. Then the Marines assaulting the building, you do not open doors and check who is there; if you do you may get a 7.62 in your body. Then something about these Marines, they had taken casualties and the adrenaline is pumping in their bodies. Countries can train and educate their soldiers, nevertheless, we cannot remove the fact they are all humans, with all the strengths and weaknesses we all have. They made the wrong decision at this time, it is not an excuse for what they did, and they reacted to the situation and responded to the information and the interpretation of this information. The Marines and soldiers are humans and under the uniform we have what we call here "the Bird Chest" and there is a frightened little heart

I am not sure about Seno and Monty, but I get what you guys are saying; I just can't agree that 90 days and a pay reduction is "just" considering 24 civillian lives were lost... in CQC, it is not like it was an artillery shell or grenades, but shots to the body.


It may have been a mistake, but even if it was, the sentence he got is still mediocre. Of course situation will be taken into account during sentencing, I am definitely not saying it is a black and white case. Just want you guys to know that I understand where you guys are coming from, but for this particular case, it seems really wrong.

I know for fact that if this happened in U.S, we (not me but majority of U.S citizens) would be hoping these guys would get the death penalty, even if they were under the same conditions. We can't have it our way all the time, it will make us look bad.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

I am not sure about Seno and Monty, but I get what you guys are saying; I just can't agree that 90 days and a pay reduction is "just" considering 24 civillian lives were lost... in CQC, it is not like it was an artillery shell or grenades, but shots to the body.


It may have been a mistake, but even if it was, the sentence he got is still mediocre. Of course situation will be taken into account during sentencing, I am definitely not saying it is a black and white case. Just want you guys to know that I understand where you guys are coming from, but for this particular case, it seems really wrong.

I know for fact that if this happened in U.S, we (not me but majority of U.S citizens) would be hoping these guys would get the death penalty, even if they were under the same conditions. We can't have it our way all the time, it will make us look bad.

The sentence is not in correlation with the crime committed, I agree with that. However, the documentation about this is extremely bad, the absence of an independent investigation create a lot of questions. The only thing the media can be used for in this case is to do the opposite from what they have done, because this is so bad so it cannot pass the Political Science class at a Junior High School, but journalists are generally bad with the bias problem. In this case, they were aware of the fact the Americans were investigating themselves; but the Iraqis were also biased.

 

[senojekips]

I know for fact that if this happened in U.S, we (not me but majority of U.S citizens) would be hoping these guys would get the death penalty, even if they were under the same conditions. We can't have it our way all the time, it will make us look bad.

You are starting to see the reality of the situation. If you think that is true for the USA, imagine how it looks to people who live in other countries.

It was clearly a whitewash, and the only reason people aren't kicking up more, is that they expect no better from the US based on previous judgments. Get yourself a free cigar.

Personally I feel that Wuterich was made into the sacrificial lamb. All of the participants should be up there with him. I don't feel that it is his job to have to point out to his squad that they are bound by all of the normal laws every time they go into a combat situation.

 

[VDKMS]

You are incorrect, a thief is a thief, a murderer is a murderer the law should not take circumstances into account sentencing should, but then I have read your posts around the forums and realise that you would find a good word for the devil if he was fighting Islam so I didn't expect a different response from you.

In short I suspect you are a man with a mission.

Laws do take into account the circumstances. I'll give you an example.

Fact : mother in law killed.
circumstance 1 : son in law made a plan to kill her.
circumstance 2 : during a heated discussion the son in law hit her and she dies.
Both killings should be sentenced but no 1 more heavily than no 2

let's go back to Haditha:
Fact : innocent civilians killed.
circumstance 1 : they drove to town and killed them.
circumstance 2 : they were attacked, normal procedures were applied but the implementation wasn't.
Both killings should be sentenced but no 1 more heavily than no 2

I am not a man with a mission. I dislike (any) religious fanatics. Religion has no place in a government.

 

[VDKMS]

No, quite simply, I don't misunderstand anything. They operate under the auspices of the Geneva Conventions and their own Uniform Code of Military Justice.

The act that was committed here was pure barbarism and there is no excuse for it. 99.999% of troops uphold their obligations.

One wrongful killing may be an accident,... but 24 obviously unarmed civilians including women and children?..... You feel that it would be difficult to establish if pre-school aged children are armed terrorists? You are clearly either delusional, or most likely a liar, making childish excuses.

Once again, you are no more than an limp wristed apologist for murderers. You need to grow up, and enter the 20th century then maybe we'll try for the 21st.

You seem to forget that they appeared in court. And in the 21st century (as in the 20th century) circumstances are taken into account. They can increase or decrease the punishment.

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

Everyone is killed somewhere, the location has no place in the argument here, it is reason why it was done and the fact that it happened at all that is under scrutiny.

Before you go off surmising what night have happened, I think you should perhaps read what is known and what has been admitted to.

What happened was deliberate and absolutely inexcusable.

The location is very important in cases like this. The men from the car, which was pulled over by the Marines were killed in the open, nothing was later found that indicate their involvment in the IED. The houses is a totally different story, the Marines were not able to identify the people inside the buildings, most people cannot see through walls and what is behind a closed door. In the armed conflicts today, the enemy does not wear an uniform, they are operating in a civilian environment, when and if they drop their weapons they are civilians again. We can be happy and it tells a bit how well trained the US military is and the others as well, things like this do not happen so often, the risk for similar incidents are very high. In consideration of the forces operating in Afghanistan, and they were operating in Iraq and the daily circumstances they are living in, we do not have so many incidents like this, it does not excuse the Marines for what they did in Hadita, they were acting according to the information they had and it went wrong at this time.

I remember I was watching a documentary about the Marines and the fighting on Saipan, one Marine described a situation with a bunker/cave, one of his fellow Marines jumped down in the bunker and he was immediately killed by Japanese soldiers inside that bunker. After that they used hand grenades and flame throwers instead and when they had cleared another bunker they investigated it and found a lot of civilians inside that bunker.

 

[perseus]

....The houses is a totally different story, the Marines were not able to identify the people inside the buildings, most people cannot see through walls and what is behind a closed door. .

Eman Waleed, a nine-year-old child who witnessed the incident, described the U.S. Marines entering their house. She said:

"I couldn't see their faces very well - only their guns sticking in to the doorway. I watched them shoot my grandfather, first in the chest and then in the head. Then they killed my granny."[3]
​

The director of the local hospital in Haditha, Dr Wahid, said that the 24 bodies were brought in two American humvees to the hospital around midnight on November 19. While the Marines claim that the victims had been killed by shrapnel from the roadside bomb and that the men "were saboteurs", Dr Wahid said that there were "no organs slashed by shrapnel in any of the bodies". He further claimed that it appeared that "the victims were shot in the head and chest from close range

Deaths and injuries of Iraqis in HadithaHouse #1—7 killed, 2 injured (but survived), 2 escaped 1. Abdul Hamid Hassan Ali, 76—grandfather, father and husband. Died with nine rounds in the chest and abdomen.2. Khamisa Tuma Ali, 66—wife of Abdul Hamid Hassan Ali3. Rashid Abdul Hamid, 30.4. Walid Abdul Hamid Hassan, 35.5. Jahid Abdul Hamid Hassan, middle-aged man.6. Asma Salman Rasif, 32.7. Abdullah Walid, 4.Injured: Iman, 8, and Abdul Rahman, 5.Escaped: Daughter-in-law, Hiba, escaped with 2-month-old Asia

House #2—8 killed, 1 survivor: Shot at close range and attacked with grenades8. Younis Salim Khafif, 43—husband of Aida Yasin Ahmed, father.9. Aida Yasin Ahmed, 41—wife of Younis Salim Khafif, killed trying to shield her youngest daughter Aisha.10. Muhammad Younis Salim, 8—son.11. Noor Younis Salim, 14—daughter.12. Sabaa Younis Salim, 10—daughter.13. Zainab Younis Salim, 5—daughter.14. Aisha Younis Salim, 3—daughter.15. A 1-year-old girl staying with the family.Survived: Safa Younis Salim, 13.

House #3—4 brothers killed16. Jamal Ahmed, 41.17. Marwan Ahmed, 28.18. Qahtan Ahmed, 24.19. Chasib Ahmed, 27.

Taxi—5 killed: Passengers were students at the Technical Institute in Saqlawiyah20. Ahmed Khidher, taxi driver.21. Akram Hamid Flayeh.22. Khalid Ayada al-Zawi.23. Wajdi Ayada al-Zawi.24. Mohammed Battal Mahmoud.Source: United for Peace and Justice[27]

 

[perseus]

Anonymous defaced the website of law firm Puckett Faraj this morning and leaked e-mails concerning the sergeant accused of handling 2005′s Haditha Massacre in Iraq.

Sergeant Frank Wuterich was charged with a 2005 US Marine raid in Iraq, which killed 24 unarmed civilians. Wuterich was convicted of negligent dereliction, ending his wait for a homicide trial in a plea bargain. Anonymous released 3GB of e-mails regarding the case and the massacre itself. The group published these e-mails first on a Darknet website, or a site intended to be used when anonymity is desired, as well as to The Pirate Bay. The group also defaced the lawfirm’s website, which is still down for us.

The website deface read, “As part of our ongoing efforts to expose the corruption of the court systems and the brutality of US imperialism, we want to bring attention to USMC SSgt Frank Wuterich who along with his squad murdered dozens of unarmed civilians during the Iraqi Occupation. Can you believe this scumbag had his charges reduced to involuntary manslaughter and got away with only a pay cut?”.......

http://venturebeat.com/2012/02/03/anonymous-haditha-massacre-emails/

 

[I3BrigPvSk]

So biased, your sources are so biased, I guess you can do much better than that

 

[perseus]

Biased Time magazine? http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1174649,00.html
Or is it biased because it originates from the director of an Iraqi Hospital. I think Monty posted a link to some pictures of the bodies earlier.

You can hear it yourself from the mouth of a child, literally! Move to to 15:15 here
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/1/26/iraqis_voice_outrage_as_us_massacre

Perhaps this is more your style.
http://warchronicle.com/TheyAreNotKillers/DefendOurMarines.htm
Yeah right!

 

[senojekips]

The location is very important in cases like this.

Please cite your source which clearly demonstrates that the Geneva Conventions do not apply when clearing houses.

Your attempted argument is an insult to human intelligence.

So biased, your sources are so biased, I guess you can do much better than that

So they are biased? are you going to argue that the courts judgments were not?

Generally it could not be said to be "biased" when the evidence clearly supports what is claimed, as it does here.

 

[42RM]

According to the rules of war you can clear a house, although civilians may be killed. But you can only do it if it is absolutely necessary for military reasons. As a soldier you must decide whether it’s so important that it will cost innocent people their lives. It’s not an easy choice! If you choose to clear the house, then the principle of proportionality applies, i.e. the number of civilians killed has to be in proportion to the military advantage in order to implement the attack. In this case they could not invoke this rule.

 

[senojekips]

According to the rules of war you can clear a house, although civilians may be killed. But you can only do it if it is absolutely necessary for military reasons. As a soldier you must decide whether it’s so important that it will cost innocent people their lives. It’s not an easy choice! If you choose to clear the house, then the principle of proportionality applies, i.e. the number of civilians killed has to be in proportion to the military advantage in order to implement the attack. In this case they could not invoke this rule.

Can you quote a credible source for that?

Remember, that no evidence was found that would in any way implicate those murdered and no combatants were found either. It was deliberate murder, pure and simple. I think you really need to read the evidence (as watered down, as it is). The whole case was a whitewash from start to finish, and I'd bet serious money that if the boot were on the other foot and it happened in the UK, you'd be screaming your tits off about it.

 

[perseus]

I have little doubt this was a reprisal attack and a severe breach of the Geneva convention. Therefore it constitutes a war crime.

Congressman John Murtha (D-Pennsylvania), a former Marine, was briefed on the Haditha investigation by Marine Corps commandant, Gen. Michael Hagee.
Murtha said, "The reports I have from the highest level: No firing at all. No interaction. No military action at all in this particular incident. It was an explosive device, which killed a Marine. From then on, it was purely shooting people." Marine Corps officials told Murtha that troops shot a woman "in cold blood" as she was bending over her child begging for mercy. Women and children were in their nightclothes when they were killed..........

Like other grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, these acts of summary execution and willful killing are punishable under the US War Crimes Act. Commanders have a responsibility to make sure civilians are not indiscriminately harmed and that prisoners are not summarily executed. Because rules of engagement are set at the top of the command chain, criminal liability extends beyond the perpetrator under the doctrine of command responsibility. George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld should be charged with war crimes.

http://www.truth-out.org/haditha-massacre-no-justice-iraqis/1328030635