Combat vets and non-combat vets
Well, KJ said the same thing.
Some people have the necessary imagination to know what could happen in the battlefield. The imagination part doesnt intervene only in finding solutions to potential problems... It also helps in "combat readiness". Some are shocked by what they could see in the battlefield because they never took the time to think about what could happen...
KJ
Active member
Oh no you don´t lump me in with your bollocks..
No I do not believe it has anything to do with your education.
Noone can "rationalize" combat, if you try you most certainly go crazy.
And noo, you can´t be ready for what you see on the battlefield, edjucated or not.
Now try to let your own theories based on your guesstemations stand on their own and for you.
I´m not about to call service members stupid, as YOU effectively did, anytime soon.
Well I might call some stupid, but not infront of you. You haven´t earned that right.
And why are you in this thread to begin with?
I thought the thread was about vets?
In this thread Counterstrike doesn´t count.
//KJ.
03USMC
Active member
Since you have no experiance and thus no clue what combat is like why don't you quit while our behind and drop the subject. This current "you can imagine it" and "mental preparedness clap trap you are spouting is not gonna turn out well.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Hell even I'm staying out of this one for the most part.
Team Infidel
Forum Spin Doctor
DTop
Active member
I'm staying out of this one too as it started as a veteran to veteran discussion. I'll just say that I must agree with 03 on this one.
muscogeemike
Active member
I too will agree with 03 and will enclose this "In the age of mobile warfare, the battle is fought and decided by the quartermasters before the shooting begins". Field Marshal Erwin Rommel
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
That kind of war hasn't been fought in a very very long time.
KJ
Active member
That was about the last time that statement rang true as well.
If you don´t count desert shield.
Warefare are moving rapidly into the UW/COIN area where quartermasters while important do not decide battles (unless they are being attacked behind the front lines).
What decides wars today are agile minds and swift thinking Squad/Team leaders.
Never before during this scale of conflict has so much been decided right there on the spot by Teamleaders.
It´s an awesome challange for any military to adopt it´s commandstructure to be able to effectively fight a counterinsurgency.
As well as getting the right men in the right positions where they are able to make those splitsecond decisions deciding the outcome of a battle.
"Winning the battles, loosing the war" is a lesson that have been learned over and over.
Hopefully we haven´t forgotten it this time around.
//KJ.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Shelves full of World War II and Vietnam books of little COIN insight and value and the incredible difficulty in finding a book about COIN says that it has largely been forgotten.
I'd rather not elaborate here.
I'd rather not elaborate here.
muscogeemike
Active member
If soldiers can't get there, with beans, bullits and blankets, they can't fight.
"You may love the Army but the Army will never love you."
"You may love the Army but the Army will never love you."
koalaburger
Active member
Most veterans I have known don't talk about war let alone brag about what they did. My father was in Nth Africa and Anzio and never talked about it until his last years when he was nearly 80. The idea of big noting in a Military Forum would have been anethema to them.
brinktk
Active member
I will say that within the Army there are those that have....and then then those that have not. Easy trap to fall into since over half of the soldiers in our Army have deployed at least once.
I will say that I do look a little **** eyed at guys who have remained in the Army for the last 6-8 years....and have not deployed yet. This war we are in has gone on long enough that if one REALLY wanted to go...they could have. Of course I can only speak for my experience in the American Army.
Likewise, I myself don't degrade anyones service, but if I DO run into a guy who has also served in Iraq and we get to talking about it...it always boils down to "when were you there?...where were you at?...and what did you do?" Say for instance I talk to a guy that was a grunt in Ar Ramadi in 04....To me that says that he most likely was really hating life and getting his ass shot off at least every other day. Then I could talk to a guy that was in Samarra in 05 that was an Engineer, to me that says he probably had his ass blown up a few times or at the very least had to deal with the aftermath of said blasts. It all depends. One thing that is definitely true is that ALL grunts tend to look down on the Fobbits. Mainly because it seems that they go out of their way to make life even harder for the already miserable life of a grunts...Of course this is all relative because grunts wouldn't have it any other way and soldiers are GOING to *****. When your soldiers stop bitching, that's when there is a problem.
Anyways, I don't really care about what anyone thinks about where I've been or what I've done. The only people that it matters to is the guys I served with. No one else could ever comprehend the losses we felt or imagine the horrors we saw because that was "our" war. Everyone elses is different and I can empathize with them but I can't comprehend when they say so and so got hit, because it wasn't personal to me. I can only know that the guys I was there with KNOW how my war was and were the shoulders I cried on or the voices of comfort I heard when we had our tragedies.
LeMask...think before you post. I find it very hard to believe that you honestly think people are going to take you seriously in this particular thread when you are neither a combat vet or veteran. There is no way you could understand any of us because you have NEVER gone through anything that the men and women who have served have gone through. Get over yourself.
I will say that I do look a little **** eyed at guys who have remained in the Army for the last 6-8 years....and have not deployed yet. This war we are in has gone on long enough that if one REALLY wanted to go...they could have. Of course I can only speak for my experience in the American Army.
Likewise, I myself don't degrade anyones service, but if I DO run into a guy who has also served in Iraq and we get to talking about it...it always boils down to "when were you there?...where were you at?...and what did you do?" Say for instance I talk to a guy that was a grunt in Ar Ramadi in 04....To me that says that he most likely was really hating life and getting his ass shot off at least every other day. Then I could talk to a guy that was in Samarra in 05 that was an Engineer, to me that says he probably had his ass blown up a few times or at the very least had to deal with the aftermath of said blasts. It all depends. One thing that is definitely true is that ALL grunts tend to look down on the Fobbits. Mainly because it seems that they go out of their way to make life even harder for the already miserable life of a grunts...Of course this is all relative because grunts wouldn't have it any other way and soldiers are GOING to *****. When your soldiers stop bitching, that's when there is a problem.
Anyways, I don't really care about what anyone thinks about where I've been or what I've done. The only people that it matters to is the guys I served with. No one else could ever comprehend the losses we felt or imagine the horrors we saw because that was "our" war. Everyone elses is different and I can empathize with them but I can't comprehend when they say so and so got hit, because it wasn't personal to me. I can only know that the guys I was there with KNOW how my war was and were the shoulders I cried on or the voices of comfort I heard when we had our tragedies.
LeMask...think before you post. I find it very hard to believe that you honestly think people are going to take you seriously in this particular thread when you are neither a combat vet or veteran. There is no way you could understand any of us because you have NEVER gone through anything that the men and women who have served have gone through. Get over yourself.
Honestly brinktk, I've noticed how closed you are with this military culture of yours...
You are very tolerant when it's another uniform or ex-uniform talking to you, but when it's a civilian, you are all blocked.
Okay, maybe that I should join the Marines before calling another Marine "Jarhead". I understand this part.
But I think that I dont have to join the military so we can have a civil and even friendly discussion...
I would tell any Vet to grow some balls if he acted like you guys here. like I would to anyone who cant handle a discussion with divergent opinions. Because I'm NOT a bigot. I dont ask people for **** before giving them some respect as individuals.
No, I'm not a military, and I dont want to be a military. Because It's against my principles. I dont understand why should I join a government organ to fight troublemakers... I believe in independence, I dont want to join a government force.
And even as a normal civilian, I have experience... I kicked ass many many times in bar fights like many many men. I've even neutralized a robber once and handed his sorry ass to the police. I've been wounded many times, even stabbed in the upper leg and the stomach...
So I know a little about adrenaline... About fear. About pain.
Do I have to take a bullet and kill someone to be able to talk to you guys? You are just human beings... You are not gods among men.
And there is a difference between a man and the same man after years of academic training. A soldier who went to war after high-school is a dumb-ass compared to himself after some year in an university.
And science, told us that dumb people are fragile people. They get confused easily. Their minds arent trained to handle informations.
And guess what? I love making outrageous theories... And I like discussing them with experienced people and professionals...
If you were medical doctors, I would be asking you a lot of stupid questions...
"Why cant you wake up a guy in the coma? All you have to do is slap him really hard... It works on my brother when he is sleeping... "
That's life... So stop being such jerks...
You are very tolerant when it's another uniform or ex-uniform talking to you, but when it's a civilian, you are all blocked.
Okay, maybe that I should join the Marines before calling another Marine "Jarhead". I understand this part.
But I think that I dont have to join the military so we can have a civil and even friendly discussion...
I would tell any Vet to grow some balls if he acted like you guys here. like I would to anyone who cant handle a discussion with divergent opinions. Because I'm NOT a bigot. I dont ask people for **** before giving them some respect as individuals.
No, I'm not a military, and I dont want to be a military. Because It's against my principles. I dont understand why should I join a government organ to fight troublemakers... I believe in independence, I dont want to join a government force.
And even as a normal civilian, I have experience... I kicked ass many many times in bar fights like many many men. I've even neutralized a robber once and handed his sorry ass to the police. I've been wounded many times, even stabbed in the upper leg and the stomach...
So I know a little about adrenaline... About fear. About pain.
Do I have to take a bullet and kill someone to be able to talk to you guys? You are just human beings... You are not gods among men.
And there is a difference between a man and the same man after years of academic training. A soldier who went to war after high-school is a dumb-ass compared to himself after some year in an university.
And science, told us that dumb people are fragile people. They get confused easily. Their minds arent trained to handle informations.
And guess what? I love making outrageous theories... And I like discussing them with experienced people and professionals...
If you were medical doctors, I would be asking you a lot of stupid questions...
"Why cant you wake up a guy in the coma? All you have to do is slap him really hard... It works on my brother when he is sleeping... "
That's life... So stop being such jerks...
brinktk
Active member
When it comes to things military, I definitely take the word of a Veteran over that of the civilian. They have lived it.
The idea that a person in combat after high school is a dumbass is insulting. Not all smarts have to do with academia, it's my experience that some of the most studied soldiers are also some of the worst because they lack practical sense. I don't think I was any less intelligent as a brand new soldier in the Army than I am now as Commissioned officer and University graduate. What I AM is a lot more experienced...I think you are confusing the two. It's easier to rationalize something once you've become used to it. Combat is the same way, and it happens no matter if you're 18 or 80.
Fighting in a parking lot or bar is NOT the same as combat. Backyard brawls and schoolyard BS is NOT combat. Not by a long shot. This is what we are trying to say...We've all had our share of fights and instances of fear in normal civilian life....And those that have ever been in combat will tell you that it all that stuff pales in comparison. No matter how hard you try, no matter what way you rationalize it in your mind, it's just something you will NEVER "get" until you've actually experienced it.
And I'm not closed to someone if I think they know what they're talking about. I'm only closed if I think they're full of hot air or I think they've crossed a boundry that should not have been crossed.
The idea that a person in combat after high school is a dumbass is insulting. Not all smarts have to do with academia, it's my experience that some of the most studied soldiers are also some of the worst because they lack practical sense. I don't think I was any less intelligent as a brand new soldier in the Army than I am now as Commissioned officer and University graduate. What I AM is a lot more experienced...I think you are confusing the two. It's easier to rationalize something once you've become used to it. Combat is the same way, and it happens no matter if you're 18 or 80.
Fighting in a parking lot or bar is NOT the same as combat. Backyard brawls and schoolyard BS is NOT combat. Not by a long shot. This is what we are trying to say...We've all had our share of fights and instances of fear in normal civilian life....And those that have ever been in combat will tell you that it all that stuff pales in comparison. No matter how hard you try, no matter what way you rationalize it in your mind, it's just something you will NEVER "get" until you've actually experienced it.
And I'm not closed to someone if I think they know what they're talking about. I'm only closed if I think they're full of hot air or I think they've crossed a boundry that should not have been crossed.
brinktk, well, it shouldnt be insulting.
And please, read me carefully. I said:
And yes, there is many kinds of smarts... I saw a lady who couldnt write her name even if her life depended on it. But damn, she was like a historian. She explained things to me about the history of her people, things I couldnt grasp even after reading many books on the subject...
But you see, I'm that kind of person who says that we should send soldiers to college before sending them to combat... Let the academics find a way to teach them this "practical sense". And they will gain experience... And then, they will be able to face war with more than combat training...
And dont do the mistake to underestimate the power of education. Some cultures make wonderful warriors for a reason. Not because they are superior genetically, but because their education shapes the individuals to work together, to be practical etc... I think that the Germans in WWII are a good example.
And if you think that the guy lacked practical sense... Well, you should see him before his education. I'm sure he wasn't better.
And are you sure that there is a boundary? Because I dont see it. I didnt hurt anybody, maybe that I wasted your time... But it's part of life. If we refuse to take the risk to waste a little time, we would stay in bed because nothing is worth our time.
My question here is why are you so on the defensive?
And please, read me carefully. I said:
This is why I said "and the same man". Relativity. You are a smart man today, but if we compare you to the man you will be if you spend ten years reading... You will look like an ignorant person.
And yes, there is many kinds of smarts... I saw a lady who couldnt write her name even if her life depended on it. But damn, she was like a historian. She explained things to me about the history of her people, things I couldnt grasp even after reading many books on the subject...
But you see, I'm that kind of person who says that we should send soldiers to college before sending them to combat... Let the academics find a way to teach them this "practical sense". And they will gain experience... And then, they will be able to face war with more than combat training...
And dont do the mistake to underestimate the power of education. Some cultures make wonderful warriors for a reason. Not because they are superior genetically, but because their education shapes the individuals to work together, to be practical etc... I think that the Germans in WWII are a good example.
And if you think that the guy lacked practical sense... Well, you should see him before his education. I'm sure he wasn't better.
And are you sure that there is a boundary? Because I dont see it. I didnt hurt anybody, maybe that I wasted your time... But it's part of life. If we refuse to take the risk to waste a little time, we would stay in bed because nothing is worth our time.
My question here is why are you so on the defensive?
Micha
Active member
There’s some truth in some of what LeMask says. An educated person becomes better soldiers. Here are two links about this topic.
http://www.army.mil/-news/2009/08/11/25745-educated-soldiers-win-wars-tradoc-tells-educators/
http://opinion.globaltimes.cn/commentary/2010-03/514181.html
It can sometimes be difficult to communicate as a civilian and soldier because we don’t always have the same understanding of the things we are discussing. Part of what we do does not make sense for a civilian because they don’t have an understanding of the "subculture" in the military. In the military you are primarily trained for war. These are facts that can not be waived. Processes and procedures must be standardized to avoid 'blue on blue ".
For quite general to understand the difference between civil and military thinking you are forced to see the difference as a product of the environment that surrounds you. In other words, the situation determines what identity is created.
The military is structured like a clan and it’s the individual's position in the clan system, which determines your behavior. Military Persons possess the same human qualities as other people but as something unique, it’s particularly the cohesion and confidence generated among the other "clan" members that’s important. From a military perspective, it’s a necessity if soldiers have to work together and execute orders under heavy pressure and it’s also a way to handle another concept of war, that of fear. It’s however not unique to the military, it’s the same for police and firefighters. We build an esprit de corps which means that there is one culture and one community. We all contribute positively to achieving the goals. We respect each other and are ready to help whenever needed. There’s an internal loyalty, where we support each other as to achieve a common attitude and behavior which is essential if we are to perform a task as extreme as war. This clan system may for a civilian be very difficult to understand.
I therefore believe that we as soldiers also have the task to give some reasonable answers to the questions being asked even after the same questions have been asked 20 times before. At the same time I think that you who are asking should not doubt the answers given, particularly if it is confirmed by one or two more. I'm sure that if I give a wrong answer there will be someone more experienced than me who will give the accurate answer.
Just my 2 cents.
http://www.army.mil/-news/2009/08/11/25745-educated-soldiers-win-wars-tradoc-tells-educators/
http://opinion.globaltimes.cn/commentary/2010-03/514181.html
It can sometimes be difficult to communicate as a civilian and soldier because we don’t always have the same understanding of the things we are discussing. Part of what we do does not make sense for a civilian because they don’t have an understanding of the "subculture" in the military. In the military you are primarily trained for war. These are facts that can not be waived. Processes and procedures must be standardized to avoid 'blue on blue ".
For quite general to understand the difference between civil and military thinking you are forced to see the difference as a product of the environment that surrounds you. In other words, the situation determines what identity is created.
The military is structured like a clan and it’s the individual's position in the clan system, which determines your behavior. Military Persons possess the same human qualities as other people but as something unique, it’s particularly the cohesion and confidence generated among the other "clan" members that’s important. From a military perspective, it’s a necessity if soldiers have to work together and execute orders under heavy pressure and it’s also a way to handle another concept of war, that of fear. It’s however not unique to the military, it’s the same for police and firefighters. We build an esprit de corps which means that there is one culture and one community. We all contribute positively to achieving the goals. We respect each other and are ready to help whenever needed. There’s an internal loyalty, where we support each other as to achieve a common attitude and behavior which is essential if we are to perform a task as extreme as war. This clan system may for a civilian be very difficult to understand.
I therefore believe that we as soldiers also have the task to give some reasonable answers to the questions being asked even after the same questions have been asked 20 times before. At the same time I think that you who are asking should not doubt the answers given, particularly if it is confirmed by one or two more. I'm sure that if I give a wrong answer there will be someone more experienced than me who will give the accurate answer.
Just my 2 cents.
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You know, the first thing you learn about communication, is that it's a complex process. I know that it's hard.
But here, I dont see "hard", I see "impossible". They are killing it with a behavior I cant understand.
Not understanding each others is a thing, but when you start calling names and insulting... Well, that's just acting like a stupid brute in my opinion. I wont allow anyone to talk to me this way, may it be a Vet, or the pope himself...
Do you allow a doctor to talk to you like if you were human garbage because he knows more about you on a subject. And you cant tell me ****, if war is a serious subject its a joke next to the art of saving a life...
And we are wasting time calling each others names while we could be having interesting discussions.
Like after reading Micha, I'm growing curious about how is the bond between military personnel, this clan behavior, since there is women in the army. And I mean as soldiers. Did something change (I'm sure it's the case), but how are they taking it?
Well, not the subject here... But... I'm curious. Is it weird?
But here, I dont see "hard", I see "impossible". They are killing it with a behavior I cant understand.
Not understanding each others is a thing, but when you start calling names and insulting... Well, that's just acting like a stupid brute in my opinion. I wont allow anyone to talk to me this way, may it be a Vet, or the pope himself...
Do you allow a doctor to talk to you like if you were human garbage because he knows more about you on a subject. And you cant tell me ****, if war is a serious subject its a joke next to the art of saving a life...
And we are wasting time calling each others names while we could be having interesting discussions.
Like after reading Micha, I'm growing curious about how is the bond between military personnel, this clan behavior, since there is women in the army. And I mean as soldiers. Did something change (I'm sure it's the case), but how are they taking it?
Well, not the subject here... But... I'm curious. Is it weird?
Micha
Active member
LeMask, mon ami.
Online Forums can be a real pain, one minute you are in dialogue and the next defending your name. This kind of communication can be such a drag, you never know if they will call you an idiot. Even if you were, what difference would it make? They are only making waves to stir the debate. Sometimes you wonder where do these people come from, are they in an internet café, but really a bum? Human behavior online is appalling its true, but smile to yourself don't let it get to you.
Toujours regarder le côté lumineux de la vie. :wink:
Online Forums can be a real pain, one minute you are in dialogue and the next defending your name. This kind of communication can be such a drag, you never know if they will call you an idiot. Even if you were, what difference would it make? They are only making waves to stir the debate. Sometimes you wonder where do these people come from, are they in an internet café, but really a bum? Human behavior online is appalling its true, but smile to yourself don't let it get to you.
Toujours regarder le côté lumineux de la vie. :wink: