Blackwater
I personally oppose the USA having a private military companies (PMC) doing the work of the US Military on any level. It might seem like a good idea and, it makes great numbers when talking about the amount of troops the USA has in a particular theater for, the listed number does not include PMC. This enables those in Washington to play it fast and loose with the actions of the US Government.
My big fear is their allegiance is not to the US Government or its people but, rather the corporation or its stock holders.
I don't mind a private military "IF", it is done such as the French Foreign Legion. A military unit that permits the French Government to take actions and if people start to die, many of them are not young French people. It is a little more agreeable to the French public.
Whatever a country does other than a few 'special forces' type actions, everything should be truthful or up front.
There are questions of which need to openly debated. If a soldier of a PMC shoots a civilian in a foreign country, if it is deemed a homicide, which organization has jurisdiction over that defendant? If a group of PMC soldiers run amoke (like My Lai 5 massacre in Viet Nam), how culpable would the country be? What happens when a theater commander needs the PMC soldiers to do one thing but, their company wants them to do something else in order to save money.
On a military mission, all involved should be subjected to the military commander on-scene.
IMHO
My big fear is their allegiance is not to the US Government or its people but, rather the corporation or its stock holders.
I don't mind a private military "IF", it is done such as the French Foreign Legion. A military unit that permits the French Government to take actions and if people start to die, many of them are not young French people. It is a little more agreeable to the French public.
Whatever a country does other than a few 'special forces' type actions, everything should be truthful or up front.
There are questions of which need to openly debated. If a soldier of a PMC shoots a civilian in a foreign country, if it is deemed a homicide, which organization has jurisdiction over that defendant? If a group of PMC soldiers run amoke (like My Lai 5 massacre in Viet Nam), how culpable would the country be? What happens when a theater commander needs the PMC soldiers to do one thing but, their company wants them to do something else in order to save money.
On a military mission, all involved should be subjected to the military commander on-scene.
IMHO
PJ24
Active member
Blackwater doesn't exist anymore. The company's name is Xe (Xe Services LLC.) They weren't a PMC but were classified as a PSC (Private Security Contractor.) They are still providing PSC services to the US government, but not on the scale they were. Most of their focus has moved to consulting and training. The US Training Center is all Xe ran with the main compound still in Myock, NC.
As for a personal opinion, the company when operating under the name Blackwater had some bad deals go down. Lack of management/leadership allowed some of the incidents that brought a lot of media attention to occur. There were some outstanding and highly experienced individuals that worked for Blackwater and now work for Xe, that did/do their job, did/do it properly and deserve no slander. Remember, the USG doesn't hire these companies because they offer church services on Sunday. At the end of the day, a thousand "atta boys" can be wiped out by one "oh ****." And as always, the 10% rule does apply, ie. 10% of your total individual force will be shitbags.
Xe just lost a really good guy in Dec over in Afghanistan, so they still have highly trained, skilled and professional men preforming incredibly pertinent and dangerous jobs.
As for a personal opinion, the company when operating under the name Blackwater had some bad deals go down. Lack of management/leadership allowed some of the incidents that brought a lot of media attention to occur. There were some outstanding and highly experienced individuals that worked for Blackwater and now work for Xe, that did/do their job, did/do it properly and deserve no slander. Remember, the USG doesn't hire these companies because they offer church services on Sunday. At the end of the day, a thousand "atta boys" can be wiped out by one "oh ****." And as always, the 10% rule does apply, ie. 10% of your total individual force will be shitbags.
Xe just lost a really good guy in Dec over in Afghanistan, so they still have highly trained, skilled and professional men preforming incredibly pertinent and dangerous jobs.
ozzy
Active member
nice
fair dinkum, info must be slow getting here in aus, i didn't know this and i'm sure all people here at 6RAR dont know that as well, we all beleaved that blackwater is still kicking. thanks
Partisan
Active member
Am I the only person wondering if these "private security" companies are just another iteration of an old profession - the mercenary.
My reasoning is that they are not necessarily nationals of the country involved in conflict and they are taking pay to be there.
Now correct me if I'm wrong,but in the US if you are found to be a merc you can lose your citizenship - yet nothing has happened to the employees of Xe / Blackwater et al.
Also doesn't this smack of hypocisy by western govts who are using these firms as surrogate government arms, I hear that Xe / Blackwater is now marketing CIA like services to companies, will they be marketing govt like services to the general public soon?
I really do feel concerned about these companies, especially as they are pseudo armed forces under contract, with no public accountability, but everyone else seems cool with them - am I really paranoid?
My reasoning is that they are not necessarily nationals of the country involved in conflict and they are taking pay to be there.
Now correct me if I'm wrong,but in the US if you are found to be a merc you can lose your citizenship - yet nothing has happened to the employees of Xe / Blackwater et al.
Also doesn't this smack of hypocisy by western govts who are using these firms as surrogate government arms, I hear that Xe / Blackwater is now marketing CIA like services to companies, will they be marketing govt like services to the general public soon?
I really do feel concerned about these companies, especially as they are pseudo armed forces under contract, with no public accountability, but everyone else seems cool with them - am I really paranoid?
Chukpike
Banned
If the security firm hires from one country and works in another they probably could be considered mercenaries.
You are wrong. Us citizens can not have there citizenship taken away.
Apparently you have heard incorrectly.
As far as marketing government like services you would need to be more specific. Quite often there is an overlap between services. private schools versus public being one example.
Private security firms have been around for a long time. Offering security for sporting events or security for private citizens. Example security for celebrites. Private security firms are publicly accountable.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
You are wrong. US citizens can have their citizenship taken away.
http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/3342/lithuanian-nazi-chief-stripped-of-u-s-status/
And
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...OgVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QhAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5387,2460554
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Chukpike
Banned
You are technically correct. Although your first example is of a person having his citizenship stripped. Naturalized citizens that lied on their applications can have their citizenship stripped away, as they were not citizens. Having falsified the information on their application, nullified their citizenship.
The catch is, those who entered illegally and lied on their applications were never actually legal citizens.
Your second is an example of the RED scare in the 1950s and MacCarthyism. In reality the only way citizenship can be stripped is by voluntary action of the citizen.
If you are a legal citizen and want to remain so it will be next to impossible for the government to win in court an remove your citizenship.
Your second example was stripped of its teeth by the Supreme Court, simply belonging to the Communist Party does not cause the loss of citizenship. It is just another political party not unlike the Democrats.:lol:
Loss of citizenship (INA § 349, 8 USC § 1481)
Section 349 of the INA [8 USC § 1481] specifies several conditions under which US citizenship may be lost. These include:
- becoming a naturalized citizen of another country, or declaring allegiance to another country, after reaching age 18;
- serving as an officer in a foreign country's military service, or serving in the armed forces of a country which is engaged in hostilities against the US;
- working for a foreign government (e.g., in political office or as a civil servant);
- formally renouncing one's US citizenship before duly authorized US officials; or
- committing treason against, or attempting or conspiring to overthrow the government of, the US.
As far as the topic of this thread. US citizens can legally work as mercenaries with out fearing loosing their citizenship. Unless they are hired to overthrow the US Government.:wink:
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
The point of the second link was "treason."
But right, being a mercenary doesn't strip an individual of their US citizenship.
But right, being a mercenary doesn't strip an individual of their US citizenship.
Wow, many points can be discussed.
These corporations can have skills/skilled individuals... But so does the army. And I think that the army can do the job without looking for profit. We pay taxes so that our armies provide us security. Mercenaries dont care about duty, but about profit and money...
If today security is a merchandise, tomorrow there will be people making trouble and provoking unrest with one hand and selling us security with the other hand.
I have enough doubts with "professional" armies... We dont need mercenaries (call them as you want, they are still paid to kill)...
But I think that we should allow private companies to sell training, equipment and workforce for security jobs like guarding, private body guards and such...
But not with intelligence and combat...
These corporations can have skills/skilled individuals... But so does the army. And I think that the army can do the job without looking for profit. We pay taxes so that our armies provide us security. Mercenaries dont care about duty, but about profit and money...
If today security is a merchandise, tomorrow there will be people making trouble and provoking unrest with one hand and selling us security with the other hand.
I have enough doubts with "professional" armies... We dont need mercenaries (call them as you want, they are still paid to kill)...
But I think that we should allow private companies to sell training, equipment and workforce for security jobs like guarding, private body guards and such...
But not with intelligence and combat...
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
I am concerned about this as well.
Chukpike
Banned
Combat troops are not trained security guards. Our tax payer supported military are not there to supply security for individuals. They do have to help maintain civil order, but not individual security.
That is what Blackwater and other security companies were hired to do. When the made mistakes and overstepped their jobs the were fired and left Iraq.
Ahhhh..... mercenary is the name for the troops hired by professional armies. You are talking about the same thing.
Gee, then you should have no problem with Blackwater. That is what they do.