'Black Hawks' to protect innocents from terror?
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
But LeMask,
what you don't understand is that they're people. With feelings. Do you think you can destroy them all? No you can't. You must sit down and have tea with them and show how humane you are. There is no need for extortion. There is obviously much misunderstanding. We need to get them white collar jobs so they don't need to steal anymore.
You are so barbaric.
LOL
what you don't understand is that they're people. With feelings. Do you think you can destroy them all? No you can't. You must sit down and have tea with them and show how humane you are. There is no need for extortion. There is obviously much misunderstanding. We need to get them white collar jobs so they don't need to steal anymore.
You are so barbaric.
LOL
Very funny.
But no, no one can discuss the fight against crime. Organized crime is a real problem. Some people among us chose to be criminals. They know it's wrong and they do it because it's tempting.
Some people steal to live. Some people sell drugs to survive... I dont like to adopt too harsh measures against them. But the others who a skilled and powerful and chose to be criminals. These guys have to be fought. And they will always be replaced by other people who will do the same choice. It will never end.
But remember the Jihadist who were fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan? Your people were calling them heroes. You sure turn your jacket very fast...
And if you start financing criminals... Even for the "good cause". It might come back to bite in the ass... Once they will be well established, you will have big problems.
Just think one second. If these criminals start hiring military personnel to do the fighting? Like recruiting mercs. The local mob might gain a significant knowledge and network... And you dont know how they might evolve.
And they are already very strong if they are doing this...
But no, no one can discuss the fight against crime. Organized crime is a real problem. Some people among us chose to be criminals. They know it's wrong and they do it because it's tempting.
Some people steal to live. Some people sell drugs to survive... I dont like to adopt too harsh measures against them. But the others who a skilled and powerful and chose to be criminals. These guys have to be fought. And they will always be replaced by other people who will do the same choice. It will never end.
But remember the Jihadist who were fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan? Your people were calling them heroes. You sure turn your jacket very fast...
And if you start financing criminals... Even for the "good cause". It might come back to bite in the ass... Once they will be well established, you will have big problems.
Just think one second. If these criminals start hiring military personnel to do the fighting? Like recruiting mercs. The local mob might gain a significant knowledge and network... And you dont know how they might evolve.
And they are already very strong if they are doing this...
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GHR
Active member
GHR, through history, many many people tried to cut deals with criminals. And it just allowed them to evolve and to expand.
Even the police forces are "in contact" with the criminal world. To get informations. If you ask them, they would tell you that it's a good deal. That an open war would cost too much.
And by the way, siding with criminals might give the terrorists an extra argument to hire people, not?
(by the way, my understanding is that these black hawks are criminal characters; mafia life, nevermind what I said if it's not the case)
Even the police forces are "in contact" with the criminal world. To get informations. If you ask them, they would tell you that it's a good deal. That an open war would cost too much.
And by the way, siding with criminals might give the terrorists an extra argument to hire people, not?
(by the way, my understanding is that these black hawks are criminal characters; mafia life, nevermind what I said if it's not the case)
03USMC
Active member
Uhhhh the Mujahideen that fought the Soviets were the Militias that fought the Taliban, that became the Northern Alliance that allied with the Coalition forces. So at least try and get your time line and players right.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Yeah.
Although there were members of that resistance within the Taliban ranks, by in large the guys who took over the country and engaged coalition forces are NOT the product of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. In fact, one of their biggest reasons for ending up in Pakistan was that they were avoiding that war.
Although there were members of that resistance within the Taliban ranks, by in large the guys who took over the country and engaged coalition forces are NOT the product of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. In fact, one of their biggest reasons for ending up in Pakistan was that they were avoiding that war.
03USMC, the situation in Afghanistan was much more complex.
There was the national army too. The norther alliance, and many groups as Mujahideen.
The Northern alliance is pretty new in the background.
There was Afghan troops supporting/following the Soviet army, and you can even see interviews of actual ANA commanders saying that they often arrested other Mujahideen, and they released them after confisquating their weapon as they were Muslims like them etc... I remember it well.
But among Jihadist there was Ben Laden and groups of Arabs from all over the world... A bit like Al Qaeda dont you think?
But I believe that terrorism is the weapon of the weak. I might be wrong, but It's my opinion right now.
And part of my belief is that you give up on terrorism when you can defend your interests by another mean.
There was the national army too. The norther alliance, and many groups as Mujahideen.
The Northern alliance is pretty new in the background.
There was Afghan troops supporting/following the Soviet army, and you can even see interviews of actual ANA commanders saying that they often arrested other Mujahideen, and they released them after confisquating their weapon as they were Muslims like them etc... I remember it well.
But among Jihadist there was Ben Laden and groups of Arabs from all over the world... A bit like Al Qaeda dont you think?
But I believe that terrorism is the weapon of the weak. I might be wrong, but It's my opinion right now.
And part of my belief is that you give up on terrorism when you can defend your interests by another mean.
03USMC
Active member
No don't crawfish now, you threw out a blanket statement with little basis in fact.
The Taliban was post Soviet era, the AQ at the time was a conduit providing support and volunteers and was based in Pakistan, AQ only really became their current version post 1991, before that they had a support role, bank rolled by Bin Laden.
You threw out a blanket statement about the West's bigotry as you perceive it as a defense mechanism.
Now when you get called on it you pop smoke about how "complex" it is and I don't understand. I gave you the time line on the Northern Alliance in my post.
Weak Sauce Broseph.
They would have fought any invader... If the US army joined with the Soviets at that time to pull off the kind of **** they are doing right now. They would have had these "heroic Mujahideens" on their asses exactly the same.
Do you think that the Average Afghan thinks "oh, an American infidel. hello my friend" and "oh a Soviet Infidel... GET HIM!!!"
No, it's very simple "oh, an infidel walking on our holy land? GET HIM!!"
For them democracy is anti-Islamic as it doesnt see the difference between a man and a woman. And communism is anti-Islamic as it doesnt see the difference between the rich and the poor. (simple examples)
And I'm not "popping smoke" or trying to dig my way out of anything... If I'm wrong, I admit it.
But I dont believe you are right.
In Afghanistan, there is people fighting for the nation first and god second. And there is people fighting for god first and nation second (maybe as god is enough for them).
The first (nation first) are the ANA or the ex-northern alliance. People who arent extremists about religion. They are drug lords, government troops... and some moderate religious people etc... You give them money and support and they accept you. They are easy to recognize, they can negociate. They dealt with the Soviets and now they are dealing with the Coalition.
And then, there is religious nutjobs. They were kicking soviet ass. And now, they attack Coalition forces. Now, who are they exactly, if they are AQ or not. If they are with Ben Laden or not. If they are connected with X network or not... I really dont know.
But the religious nutjobs that were fighting a powerful army back in the Soviet days in the name of Allah are still fighting a modern Western army in the name of Allah.
They are getting wasted, but they are still fighting... Like what happened with the Soviets.
You are training unskilled, poorly motivated, poorly equiped Soviet nationals disguised as professional soldiers serving the "state" of Afghanistan... Exactly like the Soviets did...
And I'm sorry, but the West have a LOT of bigotry in their foreign relations. And yes, I believe that Muslims are under attack from all fronts. We dont want to see them free. We scared shitless of the idea of Muslims deciding for their own lives...
And I believe that Islamic terrorism is a response to this oppression. And as violent as it may seem... I'm impressed by how peaceful they are.
We are speaking about a major civilization here. 1.7 billion people on earth are Muslims. Their religion is extremely present and extremely repressed.
Example, Islam under a secular dictatorship like Saddam's... I'm astonished about how it didnt blow with more power and destruction. It must have found other paths to vent... Hope maybe... And there is extreme pressure points and it will give horrible and extreme things like terrorism. It's inevitable.
My opinion is : Dont play with fire. Yay, you learned how to make fire. But dont play with it.
And part of this is "dont work with criminals." Yeah, it looks like a good idea... And you think you are smart.
But building a nuclear reactor at sea level in Japan seemed like a good idea to A LOT of intelligent people... They even made a 10m wall... But the wave was a little higher... And they are smart indeed, they built the installation to resist... It did resist. But the systems to cool it didnt resist...
Bright people, you can see them shine in the dark with the radiation levels they got...
Dont be arrogant. No body is that powerful...
Do you think that the Average Afghan thinks "oh, an American infidel. hello my friend" and "oh a Soviet Infidel... GET HIM!!!"
No, it's very simple "oh, an infidel walking on our holy land? GET HIM!!"
For them democracy is anti-Islamic as it doesnt see the difference between a man and a woman. And communism is anti-Islamic as it doesnt see the difference between the rich and the poor. (simple examples)
And I'm not "popping smoke" or trying to dig my way out of anything... If I'm wrong, I admit it.
But I dont believe you are right.
In Afghanistan, there is people fighting for the nation first and god second. And there is people fighting for god first and nation second (maybe as god is enough for them).
The first (nation first) are the ANA or the ex-northern alliance. People who arent extremists about religion. They are drug lords, government troops... and some moderate religious people etc... You give them money and support and they accept you. They are easy to recognize, they can negociate. They dealt with the Soviets and now they are dealing with the Coalition.
And then, there is religious nutjobs. They were kicking soviet ass. And now, they attack Coalition forces. Now, who are they exactly, if they are AQ or not. If they are with Ben Laden or not. If they are connected with X network or not... I really dont know.
But the religious nutjobs that were fighting a powerful army back in the Soviet days in the name of Allah are still fighting a modern Western army in the name of Allah.
They are getting wasted, but they are still fighting... Like what happened with the Soviets.
You are training unskilled, poorly motivated, poorly equiped Soviet nationals disguised as professional soldiers serving the "state" of Afghanistan... Exactly like the Soviets did...
And I'm sorry, but the West have a LOT of bigotry in their foreign relations. And yes, I believe that Muslims are under attack from all fronts. We dont want to see them free. We scared shitless of the idea of Muslims deciding for their own lives...
And I believe that Islamic terrorism is a response to this oppression. And as violent as it may seem... I'm impressed by how peaceful they are.
We are speaking about a major civilization here. 1.7 billion people on earth are Muslims. Their religion is extremely present and extremely repressed.
Example, Islam under a secular dictatorship like Saddam's... I'm astonished about how it didnt blow with more power and destruction. It must have found other paths to vent... Hope maybe... And there is extreme pressure points and it will give horrible and extreme things like terrorism. It's inevitable.
My opinion is : Dont play with fire. Yay, you learned how to make fire. But dont play with it.
And part of this is "dont work with criminals." Yeah, it looks like a good idea... And you think you are smart.
But building a nuclear reactor at sea level in Japan seemed like a good idea to A LOT of intelligent people... They even made a 10m wall... But the wave was a little higher... And they are smart indeed, they built the installation to resist... It did resist. But the systems to cool it didnt resist...
Bright people, you can see them shine in the dark with the radiation levels they got...
Dont be arrogant. No body is that powerful...
03USMC
Active member
Look you can philosophize all you wish. You can make grand sweeping statements of what you believe to be true, but it will never change the ground truth.
There are people who don't want the NATO forces there.
There are people that want the NATO forces there.
You are training unskilled, poorly motivated, poorly equiped Soviet nationals disguised as professional soldiers serving the "state" of Afghanistan... Exactly like the Soviets did...
There is so much uninformed butt hurt in that statement that it befuddles me.
Really you simply have no clue and are throwing out accusations now. Just stop while you're behind.
There are people who don't want the NATO forces there.
There are people that want the NATO forces there.
You are training unskilled, poorly motivated, poorly equiped Soviet nationals disguised as professional soldiers serving the "state" of Afghanistan... Exactly like the Soviets did...
There is so much uninformed butt hurt in that statement that it befuddles me.
Really you simply have no clue and are throwing out accusations now. Just stop while you're behind.
Prapor
Active member
03USMC
Active member
So, you admit they are the bad guys?:bravo:
No. No they are misunderstood and poverty stricken people. Lopping heads off and terrorist acts are just their response. A few trillion dollars in aid and a cup of hot chocolate will make every thing better.
03USMC
Active member
I don't know. As far as I'm concerned we should pull plug, we aren't in it to win it what is the point of killing and maiming kids now? Fight or go home. Nation building is BS.
That the idea you get when you see videos about the trained troops in Afghanistan. All complain about "how slow things are". They learn at the Afghan rate they say...
And I believe that they had somehow the same comments on Iraqi troops as well.
It's time to face the truth. We dont have the manpower to fight terrorism at the big scales we want... Skilled men capable of dealing with terrorism efficiently are very rare.
But it's not yet a reason to hire anybody to do the job.
And what do you have to say about the ANA 03USMC?
And I believe that they had somehow the same comments on Iraqi troops as well.
It's time to face the truth. We dont have the manpower to fight terrorism at the big scales we want... Skilled men capable of dealing with terrorism efficiently are very rare.
But it's not yet a reason to hire anybody to do the job.
And what do you have to say about the ANA 03USMC?
Ditto, bro.
03USMC
Active member
Just shut up. You can't fathom the type of man we do have serving. Just shut up, and stop talking about the people serving. If you have the answer fly on over and make everything better.
You've been there you know how to fix it, you aren't one of these guys that got everything from books.
GHR
Active member
Let me tell you about the ANA since I have both trained and been in combat with them. The vast majority are both talented and loyal soldiers. Their biggest problem is that they lack trained officers and NCO's. It takes time to train these people but slowly we get them trained.
There is so much ignorance about the ANA in our part of the world and the press would rather write articles about things that don´t work in Afghanistan rather than focusing on the things that actually work.
The truth about ANA is that they excel under good leadership. Through good leadership and engagement with the population, the ANA have set conditions for a better life for the population and an untenable environment for the insurgents. What is clear is that the population prefers the ANA, rather than the coalition and will accept a mediocre ANA solution over a well-executed coalition one. Naturally, the ANA conduct tactical tasks that involve more contact with the population. Certainly dismounted ANA soldiers are far better received than the coalition.
So the image of the ANA soldier as a warped heroin addict who is a danger to himself and everyone else is not the whole truth. That type of person also exists but it is far from all. As I said their biggest problem is lack of leadership.