As many here know my views on firearm ownership

[BritinBritain]

A lot of stats have "Justifiable Homocide"(I.E. ligit killings) lumped in with criminal Homocides. Crime dropped nicely in Fla. after CCW passed, except in one area. That was Tourists leaving airports in cars with rental licence plates on them were sufering a huge increase in robbery & sometimes shootings & killings. The Criminals knew, due to the gun free airplane laws, that tourists leaving the airport would be defenceless. Fla. had to abolish identifiable Tags for rental cars!

Criminals always have gone for easy targets, they are not going to commit crime where there is the possibility of getting shot. As I keep saying, criminals might be cowards, but they ain't stupid.

 

[George]

Intriguing I am sure I said in my previous post that I would look into it which you should read as "I have no information on the matter right now but rather than shoot my mouth off without some fact I will look into the story".

So looking at the Florida Department of Law Enforcement site I am not sure I agree with you over all there appears to be about 9% (8.8%) decrease in crime involving firearms between 2006 and 2011 however looking at it by county it is not that clear, in terms of sexual assault some areas are down by 20-50% some areas are up by almost 400%.
For example using there firearms statistics Orlando in 2011 was down 21% on murders and 33% in sexual assault but Tallahassee Region was up 67% in murder and 133% in sexual assault and Pensacola was up 315% in murder but down 18% in sexual assault.

Over all in the last 2 years the number of murders and sexual violations using firearms, knives etc. has gone up while in both cases the number of murders and sexual violations using hands/fists/feet etc. has decreased markedly which would indicate that people are arming themselves to commit crime more now than before.

Now the problem in using these numbers to determine whether Florida is safer with guns or without is that raw data tells us very little in isolation we do not know what other factors (such as population trends and demographics) are influencing the results.

But for now I will leave you with the Florida crime clock...
Murder: 1 Murder every 9hr 57 min in 2005, 8hr 54min in 2011
Forcible Sexual Offense: 43min in 2005, 53min in 2011
Rape: 1hr 20min in 2005, 1hr 40min 2011
Violent Crime: 4min 11sec in 2005, 5min in 2011

With or without guns Florida doesn't sound like a particularly safe place.

Fla is a large State with differing areas. Miami is a very large City with the problems that large Citys have. Probably safer now that during the days of the Cocaine Cowboys. Pensacola isn't all that big a City, but has had a noticable jump in murder & gun violence in recent years. Mostly in the black community & typically drug or gang related, but not as bad as Mobile. From what I've heard a lot of the increase in P'cola, Mobile, Houston is the post Katrina dispora of criminals from the New Orleans area.

 

[MontyB]

Fla is a large State with differing areas. Miami is a very large City with the problems that large Citys have. Probably safer now that during the days of the Cocaine Cowboys. Pensacola isn't all that big a City, but has had a noticable jump in murder & gun violence in recent years. Mostly in the black community & typically drug or gang related, but not as bad as Mobile. From what I've heard a lot of the increase in P'cola, Mobile, Houston is the post Katrina dispora of criminals from the New Orleans area.

I agree and it is the problem with using Florida in "for" or "against" gun control arguments, unless you can compare trends to "known" data it is impossible to gauge the effect of changes and if as you say negative changes recently have been caused by an exodus of criminal elements from New Orleans then the data is not going to give an accurate result in gun related crime.

 

[lolwhassup]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCWYuxo01lM"]Biden on Gun Control - YouTube[/ame]

 

[BritinBritain]

After watching the video I wasn't surprised to be honest, his sound bites are typical of those who are anti gun, like "guns are dangerous." Such statements are designed to install fear in people so that they plead for more gun control from government, so that they "feel safer," when in fact their safety is jeopardised.

http://www.humanevents.com/2009/01/26/concealed-carry-permits-are-life-savers/

In research sponsored by the U.S. Department of Justice, in which almost 2,000 felons were interviewed, 34% of felons said they had been “scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim" and 40% of these criminals admitted that they had been deterred from committing a crime out of fear that the potential victim was armed.

Allowing law-abiding people to arm themselves offers more than piece of mind for those individuals — it pays off for everybody through lower crime rates. Statistics from the FBI’s Uniformed Crime Report of 2007 show that states with right-to-carry laws have a 30% lower homicide rate, 46% lower robbery, and 12% lower aggravated assault rate and a 22% lower overall violent crime rate than do states without such laws. That is why more and more states have passed right-to-carry laws over the past decade.

In 1987, my home state of Florida enacted a “shall issue” law that has become the model for other states. Anti-gun groups, politicians and the news media predicted the new law would lead to vigilante justice and “Wild West” shootouts on every corner.

But since adopting a concealed carry law Florida’s total violent crime rate has dropped 32% and its homicide rate has dropped 58%. Floridians, except for criminals, are safer due to this law. And Florida is not alone. Texas’ violent crime rate has dropped 20% and homicide rate has dropped 31%, since enactment of its 1996 carry law.

Not one word above was taken from the so called NRA propaganda.

To put the Florida clock into perspective.

Florida has one murder per 10 hours.

South Africa has 1.8 every hour. (South Africa Police statistics)

Florida has one rape every 53 minutes.

South Africa has 7.54 rapes every hour.

Out of every 1 000 crimes reported to police, only 300 reached court; of those only 90 cases were won.

Crime has become more and more vicious:-

Couple shot dead, then son aged 12 is drowned in scalding bath
Sobbing child was tied up and gagged before being murdered in bath 'because he could identify them'
The three men assaulted the father with a golf club and blade before shooting both adults
Family dog had stomach cut open

Even in a country that sees 44 murders a day, the case has left the public horrified.

A gang of robbers gunned down a father, raped and murdered his wife.
Then, in a final act of sickening brutality, they drowned the couple’s 12-year-old son in scalding bath water.

Amaro Viana was murdered to prevent him from identifying the three housebreakers who carried out the raid in suburban South Africa.

When licences for self defence were easily available crime began to drop, since the introduction of the new restrictive gun laws in South Africa there has been a substantial increase in crime, especially more violent crime.

Licence applications for self defence can take up to 5 years before either a denial of the licence or issue. The delay is deliberate to put people off applying for firearm licences.

 

[MontyB]

Yet according to the numbers the South African homicide rate has almost halved since 1994 from 29 per 100,000 (1994) to 17 per 100,000 (2007).

As for the video I lost interest after the first few minutes when the narrator decided to take everything out of context, we all know that as a defensive home protection weapon a shotgun is a more effective choice than an assault rifle, Assault rifles are for offense (hence the term "Assault").

So Biden did not say assault weapons are not that deadly he said that "shotguns are easier to use" and "if you want to keep people away in an earthquake buy some shotgun shells" and I consider it good advice but unfortunately that does not fit the "everybody needs guns" mentality so they twisted it into that video.

I am opposed to MSSA classifications and they can mess round with magazine sizes until hell freezes over it wont solve anything personally if it were me I would drop all that nonsense and look very carefully at handgun sales as I am prepared to bet that they are the bulk of the problem.

Before anyone starts whinging on about banning anything remember I oppose the banning of any weapon but I am pro-registration.

 

[BritinBritain]

Yet according to the numbers the South African homicide rate has almost halved since 1994 from 29 per 100,000 (1994) to 17 per 100,000 (2007).

And you believe that? You really need to get out of that armchair and get out into the real world. Pssst wanna buy Tower Bridge?

As for the video I lost interest after the first few minutes when the narrator decided to take everything out of context, we all know that as a defensive home protection weapon a shotgun is a more effective choice than an assault rifle, Assault rifles are for offense (hence the term "Assault")..

Assault rifles are also defence, for defending one's positions, didnt the RFC teach you that? As it happens a chap here defended his home very effectively with an "assault rifle" a shotgun simply would't have been effective enough in his circumstance. There is no such thing as a perfect defence weapon. "As for the video /snip/ " Are you sure you are a gun collector, a lot of your statements come straight out of the "Anti gun handbook"

Before anyone starts whinging on about banning anything remember I oppose the banning of any weapon but I am pro-registration.

Yep so that the powers that be know exactly where you are and can come and collect your guns any time they can. Why are you so fond of the word "whinging?" Is it because its your favourite past time?

Gun registration certainly worked for Adolf Hitler

 

[MontyB]

And you believe that? You really need to get out of that armchair and get out into the real world. Pssst wanna buy Tower Bridge?

More than I believe your dodgy assertions yes.

Assault rifles are also defence, for defending one's positions, didnt the RFC teach you that? As it happens a chap here defended his home very effectively with an "assault rifle" a shotgun simply would't have been effective enough in his circumstance. There is no such thing as a perfect defence weapon. "As for the video /snip/ " Are you sure you are a gun collector, a lot of your statements come straight out of the "Anti gun handbook"

My suggestion put up a poll about what is better for home defense:
A) Assault rifle
B) Shotgun
C) Handgun

I would be surprised if B and C don't come out ahead of A.

Oh and yes I am a collector not a paranoid fanatic which which is why we don't see eye to eye on the issue.

Yep so that the powers that be know exactly where you are and can come and collect your guns any time they can. Why are you so fond of the word "whinging?" Is it because its your favourite past time?

Gun registration certainly worked for Adolf Hitler

So your contention is that should my government decide that they want my guns I am somehow going to fight them off with my collection of light arms?

Now I am sure I can put up a fight for a little while but I am not so sure I can take on an LAV or NH-90 so chances are what I am going to do is the sensible thing (thinking about the wife and kid) and say to PC Plod when he rolls up to the door "they are over there, do you need hand out to the car with them or are you ok?"

Why you may ask?
1) Well I am not suicidal.
2) They are only guns my life will not change with or without them, you need to grasp the concept that I do not buy them for any other reason than interest.
3) I don't get a hard on watching Red Dawn and Rambo movies and know damn well that I am not going to win a fight with the government.

Gun registration has also worked well in New Zealand, Australia (although I get the impression they may have gone overboard but I will rely on an Aussie to make that call) apparantly Britain and well just about everywhere that has it (third world countries and nations in a state of civil war not included) but hey that is not as cool as using Hitler to emphasize your point no matter how delusional it is.

 

[BritinBritain]

More than I believe your dodgy assertions yes.

Of course you would, you really need to get out of that armchair and see the real world for a change.

My suggestion put up a poll about what is better for home defense:
A) Assault rifle
B) Shotgun
C) Handgun

I would be surprised if B and C don't come out ahead of A.

So B & C would suffice over A in every eventuality in your opinion, including farm attacks where ranges are longer?

There is no such thing as a one stop do it all piece of kit, in some situations a handgun would be better, in others a shotgun, in others an assault rifle. If you find the "One stop do it all piece of kit," let me know cos I'd buy one or two.

Oh and yes I am a collector not a paranoid fanatic which which is why we don't see eye to eye on the issue.

I'm surprised, so many of your sound bites actually come from anti gun propaganda. I'm not a paranoid fanatic, I believe in freedom of choice without interference from government or the cops who can deny a man a licence for self defence on a whim. we have fought for shall issue system as in the US, but the ANC don't want trained people armed. One ex 32 battalion bloke was told "Your licence has been denied as your military training makes you a threat to the security of South Africa."

So your contention is that should my government decide that they want my guns I am somehow going to fight them off with my collection of light arms?

Now I am sure I can put up a fight for a little while but I am not so sure I can take on an LAV or NH-90 so chances are what I am going to do is the sensible thing (thinking about the wife and kid) and say to PC Plod when he rolls up to the door "they are over there, do you need hand out to the car with them or are you ok?"

Why you may ask?
1) Well I am not suicidal.
2) They are only guns my life will not change with or without them, you need to grasp the concept that I do not buy them for any other reason than interest.
3) I don't get a hard on watching Red Dawn and Rambo movies and know damn well that I am not going to win a fight with the government.

lol you really are getting delusional, show me where I said you should fight off government with your guns? You are dreaming again Monty. Unlike you, a firearm here can mean the difference between life and death, literally.

Gun registration has also worked well in New Zealand, Australia (although I get the impression they may have gone overboard but I will rely on an Aussie to make that call) apparantly Britain and well just about everywhere that has it (third world countries and nations in a state of civil war not included) but hey that is not as cool as using Hitler to emphasize your point no matter how delusional it is.

Strange how gun registration has failed in Canada. How would you know what works in UK and what doesn't? Handguns are banned, yet criminals are getting hold of them, another favourite among the Yardie gangs is the Skorpion VZ61 SMG, again illegal. Unless they are a figment of some ones imagination.

I think you have missed the point, criminals do not register their firearms.

So Hitler didn't collect all legally held arms through the firearm registry? You really are living in another world Monty.

As a matter of interest, have you any idea why the 1920 firearms act was introduced into UK? Well let me enlighten you, documents released not long ago showed that the British government were terrified that the Soviet revolution in 1917 would spread to Britain.

 

[Rowan]

Why don't some of the US commentators grow a brain; stop deluding themselves and join the civilised word. They are sad, pathetic and ideologically crippled by their own invented patriotic b******t that doesn't relate to realty in any way! DELUSION USA!

 

[MontyB]

Of course you would, you really need to get out of that armchair and see the real world for a change.

Yeah ok, I should have realised that you are an expert on travel as well.

So B & C would suffice over A in every eventuality in your opinion, including farm attacks where ranges are longer?

There is no such thing as a one stop do it all piece of kit, in some situations a handgun would be better, in others a shotgun, in others an assault rifle. If you find the "One stop do it all piece of kit," let me know cos I'd buy one or two.

Not in every eventuality I am sure somewhere someone lives in a series of aircraft hangers where a rifle would be a better form of personal defense but I am not convinced it is the majority and it certainly wasn't the question that Biden was asked.

I'm surprised, so many of your sound bites actually come from anti gun propaganda. I'm not a paranoid fanatic, I believe in freedom of choice without interference from government or the cops who can deny a man a licence for self defence on a whim. we have fought for shall issue system as in the US, but the ANC don't want trained people armed. One ex 32 battalion bloke was told "Your licence has been denied as your military training makes you a threat to the security of South Africa."

Really because for the most part I avoid anti-gun propaganda as much as I try and avoid pro-gun propaganda but as no one on this forum is trying to feed us anti-gun propaganda I don't have to spend my time debunking it, on the other hand the pro-gun side seem to accept anything real or made up to justify their cause and that requires the time to verify.

As for what works and doesn't work in South Africa I honestly don't care, much like the Americans you can blast away at each other until your hearts content, bury people by the thousands and in the end I honestly could not give a flying rats arse when you look all confused after the next mass shooting and wonder what could possibly have gone wrong with the "guns for everybody" idea because quite honestly it is idiotic.
But please stop trying to spread your paranoia to other countries where we don't have the problem under the guise of freedom because freedom through fear is not freedom.

lol you really are getting delusional, show me where I said you should fight off government with your guns? You are dreaming again Monty. Unlike you, a firearm here can mean the difference between life and death, literally.

Well rather than espousing the theory that guns are the answer perhaps you should look at countries where firearms are not a requirement for daily life and death and figure out how to emulate it.

Strange how gun registration has failed in Canada. How would you know what works in UK and what doesn't? Handguns are banned, yet criminals are getting hold of them, another favourite among the Yardie gangs is the Skorpion VZ61 SMG, again illegal. Unless they are a figment of some ones imagination.

Really? how many mass shooting has Canada had this year?
Seems to me that what ever Canadian laws are in place they are functioning well enough to date.

I think you have missed the point, criminals do not register their firearms.

No really colour me shocked, wonder how criminals get their guns in the first place I am prepared to bet primarily through law abiding citizens and dealers who are just on selling them.

So Hitler didn't collect all legally held arms through the firearm registry? You really are living in another world Monty.

As a matter of interest, have you any idea why the 1920 firearms act was introduced into UK? Well let me enlighten you, documents released not long ago showed that the British government were terrified that the Soviet revolution in 1917 would spread to Britain.

Don't know what Hitler was doing I wasn't there and honestly couldn't care less why the UK introduced firearms laws in 1920 because I missed that by 50 years as well, the fact of the matter is it is irrelevant to the argument at hand and just another red herring to divert the argument into a dead end.

As for living in "another world" clearly that is the case only mine appears more rational, less paranoid and a damn sight safer so for that I am grateful.

 

[BritinBritain]

Yeah ok, I should have realised that you are an expert on travel as well.

I am? I don't sit in an armchair spouting to one and all that will listen that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

Not in every eventuality I am sure somewhere someone lives in a series of aircraft hangers where a rifle would be a better form of personal defense but I am not convinced it is the majority and it certainly wasn't the question that Biden was asked.

I didn't say it was a better form of self defence, as I said every situation is different. I did not say it an assault rifle would be the majority, those are your words. A farm is a series of aircraft hangers? Whatever tablets you are on, you need to stop taking them.

Really because for the most part I avoid anti-gun propaganda as much as I try and avoid pro-gun propaganda but as no one on this forum is trying to feed us anti-gun propaganda I don't have to spend my time debunking it, on the other hand the pro-gun side seem to accept anything real or made up to justify their cause and that requires the time to verify.

For someone who avoids anti gun propaganda you are quite fond of using anti gun sound bites. As I said I have been doing research for over 13 years, I verify what I post. There's no need for you to debunk anti gun propaganda, you are the one posting it.

As for what works and doesn't work in South Africa I honestly don't care, much like the Americans you can blast away at each other until your hearts content, bury people by the thousands and in the end I honestly could not give a flying rats arse when you look all confused after the next mass shooting and wonder what could possibly have gone wrong with the "guns for everybody" idea because quite honestly it is idiotic.

Of course you don't care, your too selfish to care, you have made that very clear in other posts. . The only thing idiotic is you and your idea of gun control as if it will solve crime. Yes we are burying people, people who were denied a licence for self defence, tortured and murdered by criminals such as:-

Johannesburg -
Two men accused of killing two siblings in Northcliff appeared in the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court on Thursday, Gauteng police said.

Their bail application was not finalised and would continue on Friday, said Lt-Col Lungelo Dlamini.

Gary Smith and his sister Karen Buchanan were bound with rags and their mouths duct-taped shut before they were assaulted on March 14, 2008.

Their teeth were pulled out, darts were thrown at them and Buchanan was stripped naked. Later, they were both shot in the head.

Buchanan was killed by a shot to the back of the head. Her brother was shot in the mouth.

But then again, a sanctimonious SWAT (remove the S and add a T) like you couldn't care less.

But please stop trying to spread your paranoia to other countries where we don't have the problem under the guise of freedom because freedom through fear is not freedom.

I'm not trying to spread anything, there are people who actually live in area's with high crime rates. But again you live in a safe area, so you don't give a toss. Freedom from fear is freedom as is the freedom to chose if someone wants a firearm for self defence. We tried to get a "shall issue" CCW here, the government and the cops opposed it at every turn.

Well rather than espousing the theory that guns are the answer perhaps you should look at countries where firearms are not a requirement for daily life and death and figure out how to emulate it.

You are more stupid then I thought you were. You really don't have a clue.

Really? how many mass shooting has Canada had this year?

As far as I am aware very few if any

Seems to me that what ever Canadian laws are in place they are functioning well enough to date.

I would have thought an expert of all things like you would know that the new law is being scrapped as being too expensive and of little value.

No really colour me shocked, wonder how criminals get their guns in the first place I am prepared to bet primarily through law abiding citizens and dealers who are just on selling them.

I not surprised at such a stupid statement like that coming from you. The UK have banned handguns, as they have banned selective fire SMG's, so they couldn't have come from the law abiding and neither are there that many section 5 dealers in UK. It has been stated that the vast majority of illegal guns in UK comes across the border from Europe, especially Eastern Europe. In South Africa, criminals are getting hold of their guns from police stations by cops selling on guns handed in for destruction, or their own issue handguns and assault rifles or from across our borders. I am surprised that self proclaimed expert like you in all things military, gun laws and public safety and everything else, didn't know that.

Don't know what Hitler was doing I wasn't there and honestly couldn't care less why the UK introduced firearms laws in 1920 because I missed that by 50 years as well, the fact of the matter is it is irrelevant to the argument at hand and just another red herring to divert the argument into a dead end.

WHAT? The books you are so fond of quoting from didn't tell you that firearm registries were taken over and civilian held firearms confiscated. I am shocked.

Are you really that stupid, the 1920 Firearms Act as well as every amendment since was enacted not for public safety as most governments and pillocks like you claim, but to stop certain firearms getting into public hands and reduce civilian ownership. And no its not a red herring and neither is it irrelevant.

As for living in "another world" clearly that is the case only mine appears more rational, less paranoid and a damn sight safer so for that I am grateful.

Rational? I'm surprised the New Zealand government and anti gun organisations haven't got you as a poster boy for gun control. A point you keep ignoring, criminals ignore gun laws, and no amount of guns laws no matter how restrictive will stop criminals getting their hands on guns.

I really can't wait for the next round of bullsh!te you come out with.

 

[lolwhassup]

Well rather than espousing the theory that guns are the answer perhaps you should look at countries where firearms are not a requirement for daily life and death and figure out how to emulate it.

So please tell me how are we supposed to emulate laws that work for SMALLER countries in either population or size, or in many cases BOTH? As you probably know we have over 350 million people in the US and we used to have more firearms than people. Not to mention a population unwilling to give up their firearms and a extremely large criminal community not to mention drug cartels across the border who will continually on a daily basis rape steal and murder at will.

It's as Britinafrica says, criminals will always find a way to get firearms, they don't need to buy them from a gun store. They come from across the border or purchased at a gun show of some sort and convert them into whatever the hell they want. What they really need to do is crack down hard on the ease that mentally deficient people can obtain firearms. There are already strict rules in place that disallow criminals to simply walk into a gun store or what have you and purchase a firearm. All these mass shootings or random acts of violence are usually done by gang bangers or the mentally unstable.

 

[lolwhassup]

Why don't some of the US commentators grow a brain; stop deluding themselves and join the civilised word. They are sad, pathetic and ideologically crippled by their own invented patriotic b******t that doesn't relate to realty in any way! DELUSION USA!

Have fun over where you live and complain all you want, but that's all I f*cking hear from you Aussies and Kiwis on this forum a whole bunch of b*tching about America's problems and how you are all on a moral high horse.

So why don't you take a step back and realize civilized people can own firearms responsibly but you watch the American media and see nothing but bullsh*t spun by rich men to make more money and further their political views. When was the last time you heard of actually reliable good news on the American mainstream? F*cking never.

Call me delusional but in all honesty all you foreigners can kiss my yellow arse. This is our way of life and if you don't like it f*cking deal with it. It isn't your damn country to worry about. I'm more than happy to discuss politics and/or solutions to problems but not when its with a bunch of obstinate old men with tunnel vision and always end up insulting the US in one form or another. :cen:

 

[George]

 

[MontyB]

So please tell me how are we supposed to emulate laws that work for SMALLER countries in either population or size, or in many cases BOTH? As you probably know we have over 350 million people in the US and we used to have more firearms than people. Not to mention a population unwilling to give up their firearms and a extremely large criminal community not to mention drug cartels across the border who will continually on a daily basis rape steal and murder at will.

England-Wales have what 80 million people and there laws work so your argument fails on the grounds that it is possible to scale up for larger populations.

Now I am not suggesting you copy anyone directly some systems work for some people and others work for different people and some don't work at all but if I honestly wanted to fix the problem (as opposed to just paying lip service to it as you guys are) I would look around at the places where it does work and analyse why it does.

It's as Britinafrica says, criminals will always find a way to get firearms, they don't need to buy them from a gun store. They come from across the border or purchased at a gun show of some sort and convert them into whatever the hell they want. What they really need to do is crack down hard on the ease that mentally deficient people can obtain firearms. There are already strict rules in place that disallow criminals to simply walk into a gun store or what have you and purchase a firearm. All these mass shootings or random acts of violence are usually done by gang bangers or the mentally unstable.

Yes Britinafrica says a lot of things on this issue little of it sensible and much of it fabricated as for your strict laws about criminals buying weapons from gun stores well even you know that is a misdirection because most weapons are sold or given to criminals by people with clean records or they are purchased through loopholes in private sales laws.

Well illustrated however total homicides in 2010 was 16,259, Firearms related homicides 2010 was 11,078 wonder why people are less concerned about stabbing, clubbing and beatings?

 

[BritinBritain]

England-Wales have what 80 million people and there laws work so your argument fails on the grounds that it is possible to scale up for larger populations.

Seems and your and your famous books are wrong again, 50 million for England, and according to Wales line, the Welsh account for 3.09 million.

Now I am not suggesting you copy anyone directly some systems work for some people and others work for different people and some don't work at all but if I honestly wanted to fix the problem (as opposed to just paying lip service to it as you guys are) I would look around at the places where it does work and analyse why it does.

So you are saying across the board restrictions don't work?

Yes Britinafrica says a lot of things on this issue little of it sensible and much of it fabricated as for your strict laws about criminals buying weapons from gun stores well even you know that is a misdirection because most weapons are sold or given to criminals by people with clean records or they are purchased through loopholes in private sales laws.

Oh boy, the crap you spout is beyond belief. Of course you would say that, I don't buy into your crap which I have shot down time and time again. You were so proud of your Florida clock, but ignored the graph on the same site that showed crime dropping since CCW. Yet you accuse others of cherry picking. I see you also ignored the source of illegal guns in UK. Very selective of you again.

Another typical anti gun statement, Where is your proof that people with clean records sell guns to criminals or through loop holes in private sales laws. Where did you get that little gem Gun Free South Africa? Don't just spout off, where are the figures and the source of any figures? Again you are talking absolute bollocks.

Well illustrated however total homicides in 2010 was 16,259, Firearms related homicides 2010 was 11,078 wonder why people are less concerned about stabbing, clubbing and beatings?

Once more you are ignoring the fact that those shootings include shootings by police in the execution of their duty, self defence shootings, suicides, gang bangers killing each other with illegal guns. Again you are talking absolute bullsh!te.

Oh by the way, what actually does gun registration do? You admitted yourself that Canada has very few if any mass shootings, yet their long guns have never been a problem.

On October 25, 2011, the (Canadian) government introduced Bill C-19, legislation to scrap the Canadian Firearms Registry. The bill would repeal the requirement to register non-restricted firearms (long-guns) and mandate the destruction of all records pertaining to the registration of long-guns currently contained in the Canadian Firearms Registry and under the control of the chief firearms officers.

You are not such an expert as you think you are, you are a legend in your own mind.

 

[George]

On October 25, 2011, the (Canadian) government introduced Bill C-19, legislation to scrap the Canadian Firearms Registry. The bill would repeal the requirement to register non-restricted firearms (long-guns) and mandate the destruction of all records pertaining to the registration of long-guns currently contained in the Canadian Firearms Registry and under the control of the chief firearms officers.
.

In this computer age can they be trusted to destroy the records? That's the drawback to registration schemes, it gives the Govt a list of guns to collect, @ least the legal ones. Here background check info that has a "destroy by date" has been found still in possesion of Agencys past the date. The ATF stores the Yellow Forms, that buyers fill out, that are less than 20 years old of Dealers if they go out of business. ATF is prohibited by Law from compuerizing the records, but did anyway. Claimed that since the Dealers were out of business they were no longer dealer records but ex dealer records & the Laws didn't say anything about ex dealer records. Seems you can't trust them to do what's right.

 

[lolwhassup]

England-Wales have what 80 million people and there laws work so your argument fails on the grounds that it is possible to scale up for larger populations.

My argument fails on the grounds that it is POSSIBLE to scale up? The keyword is possible. You can say it is possible for NATO to win in Afghanistan, You can say it is possible to accomplish anything. What you say is possible DOES NOT mean it will succeed.

As Britinafrica has pointed out your figures are wrong, and even if they were correct, if you do the math correctly, The USA has OVER 4 TIMES the amount of people in your exaggerated statement, and 3 TIMES that amount of firearms. Please tell me how your are going to institute a UK style firearms ban on that kind of population? Oh and if you figure out a way to placate hundreds of millions of angry Americans who enjoy the privilege of owning firearms please tell me.

Yes Britinafrica says a lot of things on this issue little of it sensible and much of it fabricated as for your strict laws about criminals buying weapons from gun stores well even you know that is a misdirection because most weapons are sold or given to criminals by people with clean records or they are purchased through loopholes in private sales laws.

Yes loopholes in private sales laws, those loopholes that I agree should be closed, as for given to criminals? If you actually knew what you were talking about, many criminals obtain legally purchased firearms by STEALING them from law abiding citizens. I.E. Sandy hook massacre, mentally unstable man killed his own mother and other innocent people and STOLE their firearms.

 

[MontyB]

My argument fails on the grounds that it is POSSIBLE to scale up? The keyword is possible. You can say it is possible for NATO to win in Afghanistan, You can say it is possible to accomplish anything. What you say is possible DOES NOT mean it will succeed.

As Britinafrica has pointed out your figures are wrong, and even if they were correct, if you do the math correctly, The USA has OVER 4 TIMES the amount of people in your exaggerated statement, and 3 TIMES that amount of firearms. Please tell me how your are going to institute a UK style firearms ban on that kind of population? Oh and if you figure out a way to placate hundreds of millions of angry Americans who enjoy the privilege of owning firearms please tell me.

Yes loopholes in private sales laws, those loopholes that I agree should be closed, as for given to criminals? If you actually knew what you were talking about, many criminals obtain legally purchased firearms by STEALING them from law abiding citizens. I.E. Sandy hook massacre, mentally unstable man killed his own mother and other innocent people and STOLE their firearms.

Who said anything about implementing a UK style system, what I was trying to get through to you was that looking at places where these systems are in place and working with a view to developing your own systems (not exact copies but rather taking bits and pieces that will work for you), it may just be closing loopholes or it may be better background checks or it could be entire systems I don't know or care because it has to be a system that works for your situation.

The problem is that you continue to look at this from the imaginary position that any sort of control equals mass confiscation and banning which remains in my opinion a rather unintelligent way of looking at the problem and it means you can not solve it.

As I have mentioned before it doesn't matter what you or I say in the end unless you can find a way to solve this problem the government will solve it for you.

As for Britinafrica's arguments well given that 90% of the "facts" he has posted are the discredited and disproved nonsense that is continually regurgitated by pro-gun groups under the "tell a lie often enough and people will believe it" philosophy I see no reason to comment on any of his bluster and BS, you can choose to believe it or you can look for the truth which path you choose is a comment on your own objectivity not mine.

Now we can sit here and go around in circles throwing out red herrings by the truckload but there are two facts that are incontrovertible:
1) You have the most guns.
2) You have the most shootings.

What you draw from that is really up to you.