As many here know my views on firearm ownership

[MontyB]

or how about Factcheck.org...

how about Factcheck?

Gun Control in Australia
Posted on May 10, 2009 , Updated on May 11, 2009
Q: Did gun control in Australia lead to more murders there last year?
A: This ‘Gun History Lesson’ is recycled bunk from a decade ago. Murders in Australia actually are down to record lows.
FULL QUESTION
Is this true??

FULL ANSWER
The e-mail says that "t has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms." Actually, it’s been 13 years since Australian gun law was originally changed. In 1996, the government banned some types of guns, instituted a buyback program and imposed stricter licensing and registration requirements. Gun ownership rates in Australia declined from 7 percent to 5 percent. Another law in 2002 tightened restrictions a bit more, restricting caliber, barrel length and capacity for sport shooting handguns.
Have murders increased since the gun law change, as claimed? Actually, Australian crime statistics show a marked decrease in homicides since the gun law change. According to the Australian Institute of Criminology, a government agency, the number of homicides in Australia did increase slightly in 1997 and peaked in 1999, but has since declined to the lowest number on record in 2007, the most recent year for which official figures are available.

Furthermore, murders using firearms have declined even more sharply than murders in general since the 1996 gun law. In the seven years prior to 1997, firearms were used in 24 percent of all Australian homicides. But most recently, firearms were used in only 11 percent of Australian homicides, according to figures for the 12 months ending July 1, 2007. That’s a decline of more than half since enactment of the gun law to which this message refers.
Some scholars even credit the 1996 gun law with causing the decrease in deaths from firearms, though they are still debating that point. A 2003 study from AIC, which looked at rates between 1991 and 2001, found that some of the decline in firearm-related homicides (and suicides as well) began before the reform was enacted. On the other hand, a 2006 analysis by scholars at the University of Sydney concluded that gun fatalities decreased more quickly after the reform. Yet another analysis, from 2008, from the University of Melbourne, concluded that the buyback had no significant effect on firearm suicide or homicide rates.
So there’s no consensus about whether the changes decreased gun violence or had little to no effect. But the only argument we’ve seen arguing that it caused an increase in murder comes from our anonymous e-mail author.
The claims about Australian gun control were circulating as far back as 2001, when Snopes.com went over them and concluded that they were a "small, mixed grab bag of short-term statistics" signifying little.

Historical Humbug​

The e-mail’s historical information is not much better. One of the more fanciful claims in the message is that during World War II "the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!" In fact, according to the U.S. Army’s Center for Military History, Japan in World War II had set its sights mainly on Asia; its attacks on U.S. military targets were intended to clear the way for Asian conquests.​

American Military History, p. 165: Japan entered World War II with limited aims and with every intention of fighting a limited war. Its principal objectives were to secure the resources of Southeast Asia and much of China and to establish a “Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere” under Japanese hegemony. Japan believed it necessary to destroy or neutralize American striking power in the Pacific (the U.S. Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor and the U.S. Far East Air Force in the Philippines) to secure its otherwise open strategic flank before moving southward and eastward to occupy Malaya, the Netherlands Indies, the Philippines, Wake Island, Guam, the Gilbert Islands, Thailand, and Burma.​

Japan had no thought of invading the U.S. mainland, and the idea it was deterred from such an invasion by fear of homeowners with guns in their closets is historically absurd.​

(Note: The author alludes to a belief, widely held by supporters of gun rights, that Japan’s WW II Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto advised his country’s leaders against invading the U.S., supposedly saying "You cannot invade mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." This alleged quote appears literally thousands of times in various Internet postings. So far we have seen none that cite any source, or even give a specific time, date or place where Yamamoto is supposed to have said or written this. We invite any of our readers who can validate this remark to send us a citation that we can check out. Until then we must classify this alleged quote as unverified and probably a fabrication.)
Update, May 11: We contacted Donald M. Goldstein, sometimes called "the dean of Pearl Harbor historians." Among his many books are "The Pearl Harbor Papers: Inside the Japanese Plans (1993)" and the best-selling "At Dawn We Slept: The Untold Story of Pearl Harbor (1981)." He is a professor at the Graduate School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Pittsburgh. He told us the supposed Yamamoto quote is "bogus."
In an exchange of e-mails he said:

Prof. Goldstein: I have never seen it in writing. It has been attributed to the Prange files [the files of the late Gordon W. Prange, chief historian on the staff of Gen. Douglas MacArthur] but no one had ever seen it or cited it from where they got it. Some people say that it came from our work but I never said it. … As of today it is bogus until someone can cite when and where.
​

As for the other claims, we talked to Dr. Robert Spitzer, a political science professor and the author of "The Politics of Gun Control" and two other books on gun control legislation. Spitzer called the e-mail "a cartoonish view of the complex events" regarding the rise of Nazi Germany, the Cambodian mass killings and the other events that the anonymous author attributes to gun laws. "The people who write these things don’t know comparative politics, they don’t know international relations, they haven’t studied war," Spitzer told us.
We have no doubt that Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot tried to keep guns out of the hands of ordinary citizens. But that doesn’t mean that gun control necessarily leads to totalitarian dictatorships. This reasoning is a classic example of the fallacy known as "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" – "after this, therefore because of this." The fact that one thing happens after another does not mean that there’s any causation involved. And that rule would apply to anyone making an argument completely counter to that of our e-mail author, as well. Simply saying "Australian law reform reduced gun fatalities," if all you know is that deaths dropped after 1996, would be post hoc ergo propter hoc, too.
In summary, this author’s claims are simplistic, fallacious and unsupported by historical or current evidence.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/gun-control-in-australia/

 

[BritinBritain]

Fact: Thirty-nine states, comprising the majority of the American population, are”right-to-carry” states. Statistics show that in these states the crime rate fell (or did not rise) after the right-to-carry law became active (as of July, 2006). Nine states restrict the right to carry and two deny it outright.

Fact: Crime rates involving gun owners with carry permits have consistently been about 0.02% of all carry permit holders since Florida’s right-to-carry law started in 1988.

Fact: After passing their concealed carry law, Florida’s homicide rate fell from 36% above the national average to 4% below, and remains below the national average (as of the last reporting period, 2005).

Fact: In Texas, murder rates fell 50% faster than the national average in the year after their concealed carry law passed. Rape rates fell 93% faster in the first year after enactment, and 500% faster in the second. Assaults fell 250% faster in the second year.

Fact: More to the point, crime is significantly higher in states without right-to-carry laws

Fact: States that disallow concealed carry have violent crime rates 11% higher than national averages.

Fact: Deaths and injuries from mass public shootings fall dramatically after right-to-carry concealed handgun laws are enacted. Between 1977 and 1995, the average death rate from mass shootings plummeted by up to 91% after such laws went into effect, and injuries dropped by over 80%.

Washington DC was the murder capital of the US, During the years in which the D.C. handgun ban and trigger lock law was in effect, the Washington, D.C. murder rate averaged 73% higher than it was at the outset of the law, while the U.S. murder rate averaged 11% lower. Since the lifting of the ban murders have dropped by an effective 50%.

In 2011 37 states in the US had shall issue CCW, 1 state has 1 no issue.

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade
By JAMES SLACK
UPDATED: 08:42 GMT, 27 October 2009

Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.
The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold.

In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled.

The statistic will fuel fears that the police are struggling to contain gang-related violence, in which the carrying of a firearm has become increasingly common place.

Last week, police in London revealed they had begun carrying out armed patrols on some streets.

The move means officers armed with sub-machine guns are engaged in routine policing for the first time.

Shadow Home Secretary, Chris Grayling, said last night: 'In areas dominated by gang culture, we're now seeing guns used to settle scores between rivals as well as turf wars between rival drug dealers.

'We need to redouble our efforts to deal with the challenge.'

He added: 'These figures are all the more alarming given that it is only a week since the Metropolitan Police said it was increasing regular armed patrols in some areas of the capital'.

Yep restrictive gun laws work.

 

[MontyB]

Fact: Thirty-nine states, comprising the majority of the American population, are”right-to-carry” states. Statistics show that in these states the crime rate fell (or did not rise) after the right-to-carry law became active (as of July, 2006). Nine states restrict the right to carry and two deny it outright.

Fact: Crime rates involving gun owners with carry permits have consistently been about 0.02% of all carry permit holders since Florida’s right-to-carry law started in 1988.

Fact: After passing their concealed carry law, Florida’s homicide rate fell from 36% above the national average to 4% below, and remains below the national average (as of the last reporting period, 2005).

Fact: In Texas, murder rates fell 50% faster than the national average in the year after their concealed carry law passed. Rape rates fell 93% faster in the first year after enactment, and 500% faster in the second. Assaults fell 250% faster in the second year.

Fact: More to the point, crime is significantly higher in states without right-to-carry laws

Fact: States that disallow concealed carry have violent crime rates 11% higher than national averages.

Fact: Deaths and injuries from mass public shootings fall dramatically after right-to-carry concealed handgun laws are enacted. Between 1977 and 1995, the average death rate from mass shootings plummeted by up to 91% after such laws went into effect, and injuries dropped by over 80%.

Washington DC was the murder capital of the US, During the years in which the D.C. handgun ban and trigger lock law was in effect, the Washington, D.C. murder rate averaged 73% higher than it was at the outset of the law, while the U.S. murder rate averaged 11% lower. Since the lifting of the ban murders have dropped by an effective 50%.

In 2011 37 states in the US had shall issue CCW, 1 state has 1 no issue.

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade
By JAMES SLACK
UPDATED: 08:42 GMT, 27 October 2009

Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.
The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold.

In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled.

The statistic will fuel fears that the police are struggling to contain gang-related violence, in which the carrying of a firearm has become increasingly common place.

Last week, police in London revealed they had begun carrying out armed patrols on some streets.

The move means officers armed with sub-machine guns are engaged in routine policing for the first time.

Shadow Home Secretary, Chris Grayling, said last night: 'In areas dominated by gang culture, we're now seeing guns used to settle scores between rivals as well as turf wars between rival drug dealers.

'We need to redouble our efforts to deal with the challenge.'

He added: 'These figures are all the more alarming given that it is only a week since the Metropolitan Police said it was increasing regular armed patrols in some areas of the capital'.

Yep restrictive gun laws work.

Odd:
Britain records 18% fall in gun deaths

By Nigel Morris , Deputy Political Editor
Thursday 08 January 2009

The number of deaths in Britain from gunshot wounds has fallen to a 20-year low despite concerns about levels of violent crime.
Most of the 42 gun-related deaths last year took place in London, the West Midlands, Manchester or Merseyside, with swathes of the country recording no homicides, suicides or accidental deaths from firearms. One third of the victims were younger than 21 and four of them were female. The Gun Control Network, which campaigns for tougher restrictions on firearms, disclosed the figure, which was a sharp drop on 2007, when 51 gun-related deaths were recorded in England, Wales and Scotland.
The network said it was worried that "despite the fall in gun crime, disproportionate number of incidents involve teenagers as victims and/or perpetrators". Fifteen people, including six young men, were killed in 2008 in London, which has suffered a spate of gang-related murders.
There were six deaths in the West Midlands, four each in Manchester and Merseyside and two each in Kent, Shropshire and West Yorkshire. Other deaths were recorded in Cornwall, Derbyshire, Glasgow, Hertfordshire, Humberside, Northumberland and South Yorkshire.
The Centre for Crime and Justice Studies at King's College London said its research also suggested the number of gun-related deaths was falling since reaching a peak eight years ago.
The centre's director, Richard Garside, said: "Gun homicide in England and Wales is low compared with such countries as the United States, Australia, France and Italy."



So essentially 50-60 gun related homicides from a population of what 60 million? (England and Wales), US population is what lets say 300 million so 5 times the population should be roughly 300 gun related homicides in the US but as the US has more guns and therefore safer that number should decrease so lets say 250 gun related deaths in the US?

hmm oh wait 11,000 gun related homicides.

Yeah close, but just for fun lets assume there was also an 89% increase increase in the number of gun related homicides in the UK that would take the number to just below 100 dead for a year which is equivalent to 3 days in the US.

 

[BritinBritain]

Handguns are banned in UK, so murders by handguns should be zero. So as handguns are banned how are these murders taking place? Magic perhaps.

Since NBC sportscaster Bob Costas gave us an anti-gun lecture two weeks ago during Sunday Night Football, we've heard a lot from progressives like Juan Williams, Bob Beckel and anti-gun advocacy groups about how countries in Europe with strict gun control laws don't have problems with gun crime. We've also heard the reason the United States has a "gun crime problem" is because we allow citizens to own handguns however, the numbers on violent crime committed using a gun tell a different story.

New data out from the UK, where guns are banned, shows gun crime has soared by 35 percent.
The Government's latest crime figures were condemned as "truly terrible" by the Tories today as it emerged that gun crime in England and Wales soared by 35% last year.

Criminals used handguns in 46% more offences, Home Office statistics revealed.

Firearms were used in 9,974 recorded crimes in the 12 months to last April, up from 7,362.

It was the fourth consecutive year to see a rise and there were more than 2,200 more gun crimes last year than the previous peak in 1993.

Figures showed the number of crimes involving handguns had more than doubled since the post-Dunblane massacre ban on the weapons, from 2,636 in 1997-1998 to 5,871.

Unadjusted figures showed overall recorded crime in the 12 months to last September rose 9.3%, but the Home Office stressed that new procedures had skewed the figures.

Shadow home secretary Oliver Letwin said: "These figures are truly terrible.

"Despite the street crime initiative, robbery is massively up. So are gun-related crimes, domestic burglary, retail burglary, and drug offenses.

"The only word for this is failure: the Government's response of knee-jerk reactions, gimmicks and initiatives is not working and confused signals on sentences for burglary will not help either.

"The figures will continue to be dreadful until the Government produces a coherent long term strategy to attack crime at its roots and get police visibly back on our streets."

Gun crime would not be cracked until gangs were broken up and the streets "reclaimed for the honest citizen by proper neighborhood policing", he added.

At least some in the UK are talking about "attacking crime at its roots" by focusing on criminals, after all, guns are already banned so they can't blame crime on guns shooting themselves. Meanwhile in the United States, as more and more people own guns, the rate of violent crime has gone down.
Violent crime in the United States fell for the fifth consecutive year in 2011 with murder, rape and robbery all going down, although crime remains a serious problem in many urban areas, the FBI said on Monday.

The report of all crimes reported to police nationwide showed slightly more than 1.2 million violent incidents nationwide, while property crimes hit a nine-year low.

Compared with 2010, the new figures show violent crime down 3.8 percent overall. Property crime was down 0.5 percent.

Among violent incidents reported to police, murders were down about 0.7 percent, robberies dropped 4 percent, aggravated assaults declined 3.9 percent, and forcible rapes were down 2.5 percent.

On top of these figures, the notoriously violent city of Washington D.C. just saw its murder rate fall below triple digits for the first time since 1963 and just four years after the Supreme Court overturned the city's handgun ban in District of Columbia v. Heller.

The District is poised to finish the year with fewer than 100 murders for the first time since 1963, and neighboring Prince George's County likely will post its lowest homicide total in 25 years.

The "murder capital" of the United States two decades ago, the District has had 79 murders so far this year, according to police records. The annual number has been declining steadily since 2008 and is a far cry from the five years during the late-1980s and early-1990s crack epidemic, when the number of homicides never dropped below 400.

 

[BritinBritain]

http://www.politics.co.uk/reference/gun-crime

Unlike in America, there is little debate between pro-gun control and pro-gun ownership lobbies in the UK. There is general public consensus against ownership of handguns, which is enforced under strict legislation. Guns for sport are more readily accepted, but are controlled by a strict licensing regime.

Background

Despite these strong sentiments, the UK has not averted gun crime by any means.

Particularly prominent within public memory is the Dunblane massacre. In 1996 a disturbed former boy-scout leader named Thomas Hamilton shot dead sixteen young children and their teacher at Dunblane Primary School before turning the gun on himself. This was the second time in a decade that unarmed civilians had been slaughtered by a legally licensed gun owner. What is never mentioned gun clubs warned the police that Hamilton and Ryan should have their FAC revoked, the police in both cases took no action.

The combined impact and subsequent public outcry motivated the Conservative government at the time to amend the existing legislation on gun ownership. The Firearms Amendment of 1997 completely banned handguns for private ownership.

Fourteen years after Dunblane, the mass killings in Cumbria carried out by another lone gunman, taxi driver Derrick Bird, once again provoked shock, horror and disbelief across the UK. Twelve people were shot dead on 2nd June, 2010, before the perpetrator, another licensed gun owner, turned the gun on himself. The Home Secretary acknowledged that the shootings would prompt further debate on Britain's gun laws.

In October 2012, the Government announced that, following a public consultation, legislative changes would be introduced to strengthen the laws governing firearms. A new offence of 'possession with intent to supply' would be created and the maximum penalty for illegal importation of firearms increased to life imprisonment.

Controversies

Despite the handguns ban imposed under the 1997 Firearms Amendment, research carried out following the implementation of the Act saw a 40 per cent increase in the number of gun crime incidents in the UK.

While the number of homicides from gun crime remained largely static for over a decade, 2007 proved a decisive year for this issue. A wave of gang related incidents were committed by teenagers against other teenagers, with some high profile cases ending in fatalities. London, Manchester and Nottingham were most notably affected.

In August 2007, these attacks culminated in the murder of an 11-year-old Liverpool schoolboy, Rhys Jones, hit whilst playing football outside his local pub. Following a lengthy police investigation and a trial lasting over two months, an 18 year old youth, Sean Mercer, a member of the 'Croxteth crew' gang, was convicted in December 2008 of the murder and sentenced to life imprisonment.

Other gang members were convicted of offences connected with the murder, including 21 year old James Yates, whose initial seven year sentence for providing the handgun used by Mercer was increased by the Court of Appeal to 12 years.

The then prime minister, Gordon Brown, came under constant pressure to resolve the issues driving these murders. Commentators highlighted a range of social problems which might be responsible including inner city poverty, family breakdown, and the absence of positive black role models in the UK.

The government also faced questions over the apparent availability of guns, which had remained strong despite the handgun ban. Some commentators also suggested the government's legislation, specifically punishments for carrying a gun, were exacerbating gun crime amongst the young.

Following the mass killings in Cumbria on 2nd June, 2010, Home Secretary Theresa May confirmed that two weapons had been recovered by police, a shotgun and a .22 rifle, and that the gunman, Derrick Bird, had held a shotgun licence since 1995 and a firearms licence (for the .22 rifle) since 2007.

Ms May pledged that when the police had completed their investigations, the Government would lead a debate on the country's gun laws, engaging with "all interested parties" and allowing MPs to contribute to the debate.

Concerns also continued to increase about the use of illegal firearms by street gangs and organised criminals.

In February 2012, the Home Secretary launched a consultation on strengthening the law in this area, in particular whether the penalty should be increased for illegal importation of firearms and also whether there was a need for a new offence of possession of illegal firearms with intent to supply.

The consultation was set to run for 12 weeks and sought the views of the public, the police, the CPS, victims groups, the judiciary, and voluntary organisations.

In its response to the consultation published in October 2012, the Government stated that it was clear there was “strong support for taking a tougher stance on control of prohibited firearms.”

It had been decided, therefore, to increase the maximum penalty for illegal importation of firearms to life imprisonment and to create a new offence of 'possession with intent to supply' . The changes would be implemented as soon as a legislative opportunity arose.

 

[BritinBritain]

Odd:
Britain records 18% fall in gun deaths

By Nigel Morris , Deputy Political Editor
Thursday 08 January 2009

The number of deaths in Britain from gunshot wounds has fallen to a 20-year low despite concerns about levels of violent crime.
Most of the 42 gun-related deaths last year took place in London, the West Midlands, Manchester or Merseyside, with swathes of the country recording no homicides, suicides or accidental deaths from firearms. One third of the victims were younger than 21 and four of them were female. The Gun Control Network, which campaigns for tougher restrictions on firearms, disclosed the figure, which was a sharp drop on 2007, when 51 gun-related deaths were recorded in England, Wales and Scotland.
The network said it was worried that "despite the fall in gun crime, disproportionate number of incidents involve teenagers as victims and/or perpetrators". Fifteen people, including six young men, were killed in 2008 in London, which has suffered a spate of gang-related murders.
There were six deaths in the West Midlands, four each in Manchester and Merseyside and two each in Kent, Shropshire and West Yorkshire. Other deaths were recorded in Cornwall, Derbyshire, Glasgow, Hertfordshire, Humberside, Northumberland and South Yorkshire.
The Centre for Crime and Justice Studies at King's College London said its research also suggested the number of gun-related deaths was falling since reaching a peak eight years ago.
The centre's director, Richard Garside, said: "Gun homicide in England and Wales is low compared with such countries as the United States, Australia, France and Italy."



So essentially 50-60 gun related homicides from a population of what 60 million? (England and Wales), US population is what lets say 300 million so 5 times the population should be roughly 300 gun related homicides in the US but as the US has more guns and therefore safer that number should decrease so lets say 250 gun related deaths in the US?

hmm oh wait 11,000 gun related homicides.

Yeah close, but just for fun lets assume there was also an 89% increase increase in the number of gun related homicides in the UK that would take the number to just below 100 dead for a year which is equivalent to 3 days in the US.

How many of those 11,000 homicides in the US are as a result of police shootings in the line of duty, self defence shootings, suicide, teenage gang bangers shooting each other over turf and drugs? Its not so cut and dried as you try and make it out to be, which is a typical anti gun tactic along with your statement that "guns are dangerous" are used so often by organisations like Gun Free South Africa. Are you sure you are a firearm collector and not a member of some anti firearm organisation?

 

[George]

Odd how a Century ago when Englishmen had guns the Bobbys traditionally were unarmed, & now that guns are illegal for the most part they are more armed than ever.

 

[MontyB]

How many of those 11,000 homicides in the US are as a result of police shootings in the line of duty, self defence shootings, suicide, teenage gang bangers shooting each other over turf and drugs? Its not so cut and dried as you try and make it out to be, which is a typical anti gun tactic along with your statement that "guns are dangerous" are used so often by organisations like Gun Free South Africa. Are you sure you are a firearm collector and not a member of some anti firearm organisation?

Homicide is the unlawful killing of another person so I doubt there are many police killings in that 11000.
As for the rest well guns are dangerous in the wrong hands just like any other weapon and as such I firmly believe in effective monitoring of them just as the likes of cars and explosives are monitored.

I am a firm believer that firearms should be available to all law abiding and sane individuals and in societies with functioning checks all weapons should be available.

However two things in life really piss me off.
1) People that use the term "a" as a sentence filler example "want a coffee".
2) People that perpetuate false and discredited information simply because it suits their argument, example just about everything the NRA and its backers pull out to scare people into thinking they need a gun.
Most of us know the quote "tell a lie often enough and it becomes the truth" and history is full of examples but the gun lobby doesnt seem to understand this so I am happy to show them.

So in short find some genuine facts, ones that don't use all of the tactics mentioned in that Australian story and I will happily back your case but persist in using NRA propaganda and I will be an ardent opponent.

 

[hawky94]

Odd how a Century ago when Englishmen had guns the Bobbys traditionally were unarmed, & now that guns are illegal for the most part they are more armed than ever.

But not every police officer in the UK is armed. We have SFOs (Specialist Firearms Officers) to deal with anything involving guns. These officers are similar to the US's SWAT teams. They are always called in whenever there's a report of someone having a gun.

And they receive specialist training and are taught only to use their guns as a last resort. Speed, aggression and surprise are often enough to overwhelm the said offender carrying the weapon, and make him drop the weapon and he is then aggressively restrained and carted off by the local police.

Here's a Youtube link to a documentary on CO19. The designation for the Metropolitan Police Service's Special Firearms Command. Enjoy.

Unfortunately, I've been unable to find the whole thing online, just bits and pieces of episodes.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5LfYLf41J4"]CO19 GUN CRIME shootings in South London. - YouTube[/ame]

I do believe that since 7/7, there are now SFO's on the Tube stations and major airports in the UK. (CF and HWM feel free to enlighten me.)

 

[Capt Frogman]

Odd how a Century ago when Englishmen had guns the Bobbys traditionally were unarmed, & now that guns are illegal for the most part they are more armed than ever.

Are they?

News to me.

 

[Capt Frogman]

I do believe that since 7/7, there are now SFO's on the Tube stations and major airports in the UK. (CF and HWM feel free to enlighten me.)

It's AFO's (Authorised Firearms Officer) that deal with the day to day "mundane" firearms jobs. SFO's tend to deal with counter terrorist/storming buildings etc. You'll more than likely encounter an AFO than a SFO.

To answer your question Hawky, yes there are AFO's at major airports, the London underground and other high profile locations.

 

[hawky94]

Christ, name-changes up the ying-yang! I must brush up on that stuff!

 

[BritinBritain]

Homicide is the unlawful killing of another person so I doubt there are many police killings in that 11000.

Its a fact that all fatal shootings are lumped together whatever their cause. Gun Free South Africa has an old favourite, "X number of children are killed by guns in South Africa," what they don't mention is those children are teenage gang bangers killing each other with illegally held firearms over drugs or turf wars.

As for the rest well guns are dangerous in the wrong hands just like any other weapon and as such I firmly believe in effective monitoring of them just as the likes of cars and explosives are monitored.

Its not guns that are dangerous, they are an inanimate object without a life of its own, its when they are in the wrong hands that they become dangerous, as are scissors, steak knives and aeroplanes among other things.

I am a firm believer that firearms should be available to all law abiding and sane individuals and in societies with functioning checks all weapons should be available.

You'll get no argument from me on that one. But the powers that be in UK and South Africa will argue with you on that.

However two things in life really piss me off.
1) People that use the term "a" as a sentence filler example "want a coffee".
2) People that perpetuate false and discredited information simply because it suits their argument, example just about everything the NRA and its backers pull out to scare people into thinking they need a gun.
Most of us know the quote "tell a lie often enough and it becomes the truth" and history is full of examples but the gun lobby doesnt seem to understand this so I am happy to show them..

Are you just as happy to show anti gun people that most of their sound bites are bullsh!te? They are fond of sound bites such as "Many," "A lot of," "Most people agree." They never give checkable facts and the vast majority of their so called research has been found time and time again to be total fabrication.

So in short find some genuine facts, ones that don't use all of the tactics mentioned in that Australian story and I will happily back your case but persist in using NRA propaganda and I will be an ardent opponent.

I have been gathering "facts" for more then 13 years, and you cannot argue that rapes and other crimes have decreased since CCW in Florida and murders have dropped in Washington DC since the hand ban was lifted. THOSE ARE FACTS.

 

[BritinBritain]

Odd how a Century ago when Englishmen had guns the Bobbys traditionally were unarmed, & now that guns are illegal for the most part they are more armed than ever.

Before 1920 it was perfectly legal for an ordinary person in the UK to own a Vickers or a MP18.

 

[George]

Its a fact that all fatal shootings are lumped together whatever their cause.

A lot of stats have "Justifiable Homocide"(I.E. ligit killings) lumped in with criminal Homocides. Crime dropped nicely in Fla. after CCW passed, except in one area. That was Tourists leaving airports in cars with rental licence plates on them were sufering a huge increase in robbery & sometimes shootings & killings. The Criminals knew, due to the gun free airplane laws, that tourists leaving the airport would be defenceless. Fla. had to abolish identifiable Tags for rental cars!

 

[MontyB]

Are you just as happy to show anti gun people that most of their sound bites are bullsh!te? They are fond of sound bites such as "Many," "A lot of," "Most people agree." They never give checkable facts and the vast majority of their so called research has been found time and time again to be total fabrication.

I have already pointed out I do not support the high capacity magazine argument as it is a pointless red herring.

I do not support the creation of the MSSA category as a rifle is a rifle and in the hands of sane people it doesn't matter whether you own a bolt action 22 or a fully auto AR-15 the weapon is not going to be an issue.

For the same reason I do not support the banning of any weapon.

I do not agree with giving ex-partners the right to **** up your chance of getting a firearms license.

However I do believe in strict rules for those that own firearms in how they store weapons and the back ground checks needed to get a firearm and I do support registration, in short I would sooner see governments err on the side of caution when making these laws than have the free for all that is causing the mess in the USA.

As for Florida I will look into it but there is a lot more to analysis of statistics than just the number of rapes.

 

[BritinBritain]

However I do believe in strict rules for those that own firearms in how they store weapons and the back ground checks needed to get a firearm and I do support registration, in short I would sooner see governments err on the side of caution when making these laws than have the free for all that is causing the mess in the USA..

How strange that reports from around the world suggest that crime in the USA is dropping.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13799616

http://www.economist.com/node/18775436

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/21/america-serious-crime-rate-plunging

As for Florida I will look into it but there is a lot more to analysis of statistics than just the number of rapes.

You mean you have ignored my previous posts regarding the drop in crime in Florida since passing of CCW? Florida was once the rape capital of the US, since CCW rape and other crimes have reduced. Criminals might be cowards, but they ain't stupid.

 

[MontyB]

You mean you have ignored my previous posts regarding the drop in crime in Florida since passing of CCW? Florida was once the rape capital of the US, since CCW rape and other crimes have reduced. Criminals might be cowards, but they ain't stupid.

Intriguing I am sure I said in my previous post that I would look into it which you should read as "I have no information on the matter right now but rather than shoot my mouth off without some fact I will look into the story".

So looking at the Florida Department of Law Enforcement site I am not sure I agree with you over all there appears to be about 9% (8.8%) decrease in crime involving firearms between 2006 and 2011 however looking at it by county it is not that clear, in terms of sexual assault some areas are down by 20-50% some areas are up by almost 400%.
For example using there firearms statistics Orlando in 2011 was down 21% on murders and 33% in sexual assault but Tallahassee Region was up 67% in murder and 133% in sexual assault and Pensacola was up 315% in murder but down 18% in sexual assault.

Over all in the last 2 years the number of murders and sexual violations using firearms, knives etc. has gone up while in both cases the number of murders and sexual violations using hands/fists/feet etc. has decreased markedly which would indicate that people are arming themselves to commit crime more now than before.

Now the problem in using these numbers to determine whether Florida is safer with guns or without is that raw data tells us very little in isolation we do not know what other factors (such as population trends and demographics) are influencing the results.

But for now I will leave you with the Florida crime clock...
Murder: 1 Murder every 9hr 57 min in 2005, 8hr 54min in 2011
Forcible Sexual Offense: 43min in 2005, 53min in 2011
Rape: 1hr 20min in 2005, 1hr 40min 2011
Violent Crime: 4min 11sec in 2005, 5min in 2011

With or without guns Florida doesn't sound like a particularly safe place.

 

[BritinBritain]

Florida crime rates are at 40-year lows.

Forty-year lows? That’s the kind of dramatic statement that makes fact-checkers sit up and say, "Really?"

Gov. Rick Scott has made that statement several times when asked about the killing of Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager in Sanford, Fla. His comments seem intended to reassure people that Florida is a safe place to work and live, even while the state investigates the Martin shooting. (See Scott discuss it on MSNBC’s Morning Joe.)

"We are at a 40-year low in our crime rate in our state," he said in an April 13, 2012, report from Reuters. "From a public safety standpoint we are absolutely heading in the right direction."

Martin died after a resident, George Zimmerman, reported him to 911 as acting suspicious. The operator told Zimmerman not to pursue Martin, but Zimmerman shot Martin a short while later.

Police didn’t arrest Zimmerman, and that angered Martin’s family and others. It also got people talking about Florida’s "stand your ground" law, which allows people to use deadly force when they believe their lives are at risk.

Scott said an official review of the controversial "stand your ground" law will begin after the investigation into the shooting itself is complete.

A reader (and Palm Beach Post reporter) on Twitter reported that Scott again said crime rates were at 40-year lows during a forum in West Palm Beach; she asked us to check it out. So we decided to investigate.

Our first stop was with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. Crime statistics on the website only go back 11 years, so we contacted the department directly. It provided us with crime statistics from 2010 back to 1971, for a total of 40 years.

The department uses the number of crimes and the population of Florida to calculate crime rates, so different years can be compared. The crime rate shows how many crimes occurred per 100,000 people.

In 1971, the crime rate was 5,668. The rate crept up through the 1970s, peaking in the late 1980s at 8,908. The rate then slowly dropped through the 1990s. In 2000, it dropped below the 1971 mark and continued downward. In 2010, the crime rate reached a new low of 4,105. (See the data for yourself.)

As we dug deeper, we saw that Scott has been touting the statistic since it was first announced by the department almost a year ago.

Do the numbers reflect reality, though? From time to time, there have been allegations that local police haven’t always reported numbers as accurately as they should. We addressed this point in detail in another fact-check. Overall, though, we found no evidence that isolated cases of cheating undermine the larger trend of declining crime rates.

We should also point out that Florida isn’t the only place experiencing historically low crime rates, even during a severe economic recession.

Why are rates declining? Nobody can say for sure.

"I wish we had some really good answers, but we don’t," said Ronald L. Akers, a professor of criminology at the University of Florida. "There have been a number of reasonable hypotheses that fit what we know, but nothing we can really pin down with certainty."

The theories are highly diverse, and some are fairly controversial, as we noted in previous fact-checks on crime rates.

Here are some of the ideas that have been advanced to explain the lower crime rates: Police are getting better at using technology to prevent crime. More people are in jail and therefore can’t commit crimes. Drug addiction is not as widespread as it once was. Online banking and debit cards mean people don’t have cash at home. Abortions have suppressed the number of poor, unsupervised young men. Low inflation makes stealing non-cash items less attractive. President Barack Obama is setting a positive example for African-American youth. New gun laws establishing the right to carry are deterring criminals. Joblessness means people are at home watching the neighborhood. Extended unemployment benefits and food stamps mean people don’t have to turn to crime. Banning lead paint and leaded gasoline has reduced criminal impulses among young men.

In the case of Scott’s comments, he didn’t get into the causes of the crime rates or claim unearned credit for the trend. Rather, he was pointing out that while individual crimes might receive a great deal of media attention, statistics show that crime rates in Florida are at 40-year lows. The official numbers confirm Scott’s statement. We rate his statement True.

 

[BritinBritain]

Intriguing I am sure I said in my previous post that I would look into it which you should read as "I have no information on the matter right now but rather than shoot my mouth off without some fact I will look into the story".

So looking at the Florida Department of Law Enforcement site I am not sure I agree with you over all there appears to be about 9% (8.8%) decrease in crime involving firearms between 2006 and 2011 however looking at it by county it is not that clear, in terms of sexual assault some areas are down by 20-50% some areas are up by almost 400%.
For example using there firearms statistics Orlando in 2011 was down 21% on murders and 33% in sexual assault but Tallahassee Region was up 67% in murder and 133% in sexual assault and Pensacola was up 315% in murder but down 18% in sexual assault.

Over all in the last 2 years the number of murders and sexual violations using firearms, knives etc. has gone up while in both cases the number of murders and sexual violations using hands/fists/feet etc. has decreased markedly which would indicate that people are arming themselves to commit crime more now than before.

Now the problem in using these numbers to determine whether Florida is safer with guns or without is that raw data tells us very little in isolation we do not know what other factors (such as population trends and demographics) are influencing the results.

But for now I will leave you with the Florida crime clock...
Murder: 1 Murder every 9hr 57 min in 2005, 8hr 54min in 2011
Forcible Sexual Offense: 43min in 2005, 53min in 2011
Rape: 1hr 20min in 2005, 1hr 40min 2011
Violent Crime: 4min 11sec in 2005, 5min in 2011

With or without guns Florida doesn't sound like a particularly safe place.

It also says

The Crime Clock should be viewed with care. Being the most aggregate
representation of UCR data, it is designed to convey the annual reported crime experience by showing the relative frequency of occurrence of the Index Offenses. The mode of display should not be taken to imply a regularity in the commission of Part I offenses; rather, it represents the annual ratio of crime to fixed time intervals.

I have no doubt there are area's in Florida or anywhere else for that matter that are highly dangerous, CCW or not. What the time clock doesn't show is the % of crime increase or decrease so in reality it is not a true indicator.

By the sound of it New Zealand isn't that safe either.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/196387/How-safe-is-your-city

Auckland and Christchurch's central city areas are the crime capitals of New Zealand for violence and sex attacks but North Shore and Waikato are two of the safest places to live, new figures show.

Close behind Auckland and Christchurch is Counties Manukau Central, with large North Island provincial centres such as Hamilton, Gisborne and Rotorua making up the rest of the top 10 list of the country's most crime-ridden districts.

Christchurch Central topped the overall rates of violence offences, and was the nation's capital for grievous assaults, serious assaults, minor assaults and sexual attacks. It also topped the tables for burglary, car thefts, and property damage.

Below is the Florida crime rate graph :-

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/0c0be793-9515-41d7-b562-e6a94658ec4a/Violent-Crime.aspx

It also states Violent crime includes Murder, Forcible Sex Offenses, Robbery, and Aggravated Assault. From 1991 to 2011, Florida experienced a decrease in the number of reported Violent offenses, down 37.9 percent from 158,181 reported offenses in 1991 to 98,183 in 2011. The overall Violent crime rate has had a significant decrease of 56.7 percent from 1,198.7 offenses per 100,000 population in 1991 to 519.3 in 2011. Florida's population increased 43.3 percent during the period.

Florida sounds a lot safer than you are trying to make it out to be. Are you really sure you aren't a member of some anti gun organisation, you appear to go out of your way to prove that firearms in private hands doesn't deter crime, when in fact www.fdle.state.fl.us own statistics shows it does.

I do not persist with NRA propaganda, unless you think that the graph below to be NRA propaganda, I do however strongly oppose anti gun propaganda. especially when anti gun nuts try and take away my means of protecting my family, then I get highly pissed off.