Are Americans any different?
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
All I hope is that the 2nd ammendment is not changed.
But I wouldn't be too surprised if it is *heavily* modified in the coming years. Yeah it's not going to do us any good, but it seems like an inevitability.
But I wouldn't be too surprised if it is *heavily* modified in the coming years. Yeah it's not going to do us any good, but it seems like an inevitability.
Chukpike
Banned
What ever. You may be right, after all I am answering an absurd hypothetical question. We are all conversing on a fantasy.
senojekips
Active member
Once again, you talk as if these things are cast in stone.
As we have seen previously, if the need arises, nothing is sacred. All laws ar made by man and therefore can be unmade, regardless of what the position is at the moment.
Personally i could not see it happening in the foreseeable future, but we are talking of a hypothetical situation, so hypothetical answers are in order.
Just as an aside. As a LEO, would you uphold the law, and do your sworn duty if this ever came to pass? (I don't think I'll ever have to hold you to it):wink:
03USMC
Active member
No that's a fact. No President can override a Constitutional Amendment by decree. United States Code (laws) are a different animal, the overriding of certain statutes by Bush was done under the mantle real or not of national security and POTUS has a limited power to do so. An amendment to the constitution requires a different process to amend, add or repeal.
I'm not stating that the constitiution can't be amended/changed etc it can and has , but niether do I consider the Bill of Rights a living document as some do.
Would I? I don't know I'd have to think long and hard about it, especially taking into consideration the why.
I'm not stating that the constitiution can't be amended/changed etc it can and has , but niether do I consider the Bill of Rights a living document as some do.
Would I? I don't know I'd have to think long and hard about it, especially taking into consideration the why.
senojekips
Active member
A very good answer IMHO. It would be a hard act to follow, but one well worth considering.
I would never have believed that what happened in Australia could have ever happened either, but I was wrong, I was also wrong when I said that I would not comply. Which is not to say that I couldn't get my clammy little fingers on just about any firearm I wanted if the need arose, and I have been "out of it" for nearly 30 years. (Some leopards just never change their spots). So not a great deal has changed anyway regarding the availability of such weapons, it's just that it is now fraught with great danger to be in possession of them. I'll leave that to the "risk takers".
Chukpike
Banned
Simple question.
Before they took your guns were you required to register them? Did you all ready have a registration requirement?
senojekips
Active member
Yes, but only in some states and it was largely ignored. I only had two firearms registered.
Never the less, the risk of keeping them is totally unacceptable.
And Yes, we did have at least one bloke who fought the police,... he lasted two days before being dragged from his fortified home and treated for minor shrapnel wounds, then thrown in prison. He was determined not to give up, but he lost in the end. It sorta made others think about their mortality.
Never the less, the risk of keeping them is totally unacceptable.
And Yes, we did have at least one bloke who fought the police,... he lasted two days before being dragged from his fortified home and treated for minor shrapnel wounds, then thrown in prison. He was determined not to give up, but he lost in the end. It sorta made others think about their mortality.
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
That is the difference between someone that believes in their rights and someone that doesn't...... Those that will not fight for what they believe in are doomed to live as serfs.
There are things far worse then death..... such as living on my knees. I'd rather die on my feet as a free man.
For me the issue isn't about firearms. It's about my rights being restricted and dismantled. I have certain rights that were given to be my the divine creator. These are rights that every man, woman, and child are born with.
These rights are the rights to Worship and Practice my Religion. The Right to Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Assembly and Protest. The right to keep and bear arms in defense of myself, my family, and my loved ones against any and all evils in this world. The right to be secure on my person and in my home. The right to freedom of travel. The right to work and provide for my family without unjust taxation and theft of my goods, services, and profit. The right to keep and own my land.
If you violate these rights you are thus breaking the social contract that you and I have signed..... All that I ask is that I be left alone and allowed to live my life as I see fit without your or anyone els intrusion into it. I am not a serf and thus no man is my King..... I serve no one except myself.
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A Can of Man
Je suis aware
There are also other ways: taking my services elsewhere.
Or else I'd have to shoot up the country I'm in currently.
Or else I'd have to shoot up the country I'm in currently.
5.56X45mm
Milforum Mac Daddy
I've left one country already...... the only problem is that there is no other place on the face of the Earth that is like where I currently live.
Chukpike
Banned
I think I understand your position a lot better now.
You made a decision to give up.your guns.
You now want affirmation that it was the right one.
Without that affirmation you will always be wondering if it was the right one.
Very similar to what is called buyers remorse.
Since the topic is: Are Americans any different?
I believe we are. So it will not really answer whether you made the right decision.
You might want to rent a video on the Constitution and Bill of Rights. It would better explain why striking down or changing these amendments is considered by many here as striking down the whole document. The first Ten amendments were required to have the Constitution ratified. They are not after thoughts. They were rights the people had all ready. The concern was if they were not written into the Constitution the Federal government would become to powerful.
Removing any of these rights would break the contract that the Federal Government made with the States. Basically meaning the States would be legally able to disassociate them selfs from the central government. In other words secede at the States discretion not subject to Federal interference.
Another way to look at it is the states by ratifying the Constitution were giving their permission for the Federal government to exist.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
I don't know if this has been posted before, but its scary stuff.
The whole article was too big to post
http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1216.htm
All Private Guns Will Be Confiscated By September 2009, US Tells Russia
By: Sorcha Faal, and as reported to her Western Subscribers (Traducción al Español abajo)
Kremlin reports on the extraordinary meeting held today between President Medvedev and former United States Secretaries of State Henry Kissinger (under Nixon), James Baker (under Bush Sr.), Charles Shultz (under Regan), former United States Defense Secretary William Perry (under Clinton), and former US Senator and top defense expert Sam Nunn, are stating that the Americans are acknowledging for the first time their acceptance of a New Global Order in which they seek to partner with natural resource rich Russia and the oil rich Nations of the Middle East in order to ensure their survival into the 21st Century.
Leading the United States to the shocking conclusion that their very survival is at risk has been the evaporation of 45 percent of the World’s wealth which has caused a rapid plunge in Global manufacturing leading to a 49 percent collapse in US trade exports which the International Monetary Fund is reported has caused the World’s economy to shrink for the first time in 60 years and has lead Canada’s Central Bank chief David Dodge to state the World is “facing a long and deep recession that will fundamentally alter the nature of capitalism”.
Though Prime Minister Putin has warned that “resorting to a printing press would be unwise and extremely dangerous”, the already bankrupt United States, whose staggering debt is four times higher than their entire National income, has allowed its Federal Reserve Bank Chairman Ben “Throw Money Out of Helicopters” Bernanke to ‘create out of thin air’ a further $1.2 Trillion to stabilize the American economy, but which in turn has led to the collapse of the US Dollar leading the United Nations to recommend next week that the World “ditch the dollar as its reserve currency in favor of a shared basket of currencies”.
Russian economists further state in these reports that the United States has been left with ‘no other option’ than to force the massive devaluation of the US Dollar in order to ‘shake lose’ from banks and private investors the hundreds of billions they are currently hoarding and is being blamed for collapsing a United States where consumer spending accounts for two-thirds of its economy and which without money to borrow, or borrowers to loan to, is fast approaching the abyss.
With the devaluation of the US dollar, however, massive inflation will ensue causing the value of these currently hoarded hundreds of billions of US Dollars to plummet and forcing them to be spent before they become totally worthless, a policy which China, the largest Global holder of US debt, has voiced increasing concerns about and have cut back on their purchases of American debt even as desperation hits their own factories as orders plunge.
These top American Officials have also assured President Medvedev that new laws being written by the Obama administration will ‘completely’ reform the American financial system by fully integrating it into a single Global Economy due to be enacted during the coming G-20 summit in London.
When President Medvedev voiced his concerns to the Americans over his belief that the US Congress would not allow such a radical new set of laws to pass, these reports continue, Kissinger stated that the American people were being ‘primed’ to overwhelm their lawmakers into swiftly enacting ‘in its entirety’ the Obama administrations new banking and financial laws by the outrageous behavior of those collapsed financial giants that includes: 1.) The insurance giant AIG which after receiving over $300 billion in US taxpayer money paid out nearly $200 million in bonuses; 2.) The collapsed stock selling giant Merrill Lynch which after receiving $20 billion in US taxpayer money paid out $3.6 billion in bonuses; and 3.) The collapsed US banking giant Citigroup who after receiving $45 billion in US taxpayer money announced a $10 million redecoration of their executive office suites.
News from the United States today further confirm Kissinger’s assertions to President Medvedev as US Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner has now admitted that he had ordered US Senator Christopher Dodd to include the executive pay provision into the stimulus bill which was, in fact, a loophole allowing these controversial bonuses to be paid out.
To such machinations being utilized by their supposed ‘leaders’ against them in order to pave the road from a once sovereign United States to this New World Order these Americans remain nearly clueless, but when pressed by President Medvedev on the plans to ensure that civil society on the North American continent doesn’t break down Kissinger reportedly replied, “By September we’ll have confiscated all privately owned guns so it really doesn’t matter what we do, we’ll still be in charge”.
Russian Intelligence reports state that gun ownership statistics in the United States vary widely, but is estimated to be that nearly 50 percent of US households have nearly 270 million guns, none of which these Americans seem now ready to part with without a fight.
But, new reports coming from the United States show that they are fast adopting the tactics used by the German Nazis to disarm their society prior to the installation of fascist rule and martial law by first rendering all private guns useless by eliminating and restricting the ammunition they use. And from new reports coming from the United States we can see that this ‘plan’ is already being instituted with ammunition shortages being reported in Idaho, Georgia, and Louisiana, and a new law just introduced in California which would:
1. Stop the private transfer between individuals of more than 50 rounds of ammunition.
2. License and tax anyone selling handgun ammunition commercially and force these stores to get background checks on anyone selling ammunition.
3. Get a thumbprint from anyone buying handgun ammunition.
4. Ban all ammunition sales that don't take place face-to- face, in other words, ban mail-order sales.
Even more chilling for American gun owners was the Obama administrations order to the US Military on March 12 which stated: “Effective immediately DOD Surplus, LLC, will be implementing new requirements for mutilation of fired shell casings. The new DRMS requirement calls for DOD Surplus personnel to witness the mutilation of the property and sign the Certificate of Destruction.” which would have crippled the US ammunition industry, who are the largest purchasers of used military ammunition brass, but after found out about by US Senators was quickly withdrawn.
To the reasons feared by the leadership class in the United States of their citizens retaining the right to firearms we can read:
“As the growing world-wide economic crisis deepens, military forces from Canada, the United States, and the United Kingdom are preparing to meet angry citizens on the street. The economic crisis - and the public outrage it is causing - is at the forefront of intelligence agencies and military forces in the western world.
The whole article was too big to post
http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1216.htm
All Private Guns Will Be Confiscated By September 2009, US Tells Russia
By: Sorcha Faal, and as reported to her Western Subscribers (Traducción al Español abajo)
Kremlin reports on the extraordinary meeting held today between President Medvedev and former United States Secretaries of State Henry Kissinger (under Nixon), James Baker (under Bush Sr.), Charles Shultz (under Regan), former United States Defense Secretary William Perry (under Clinton), and former US Senator and top defense expert Sam Nunn, are stating that the Americans are acknowledging for the first time their acceptance of a New Global Order in which they seek to partner with natural resource rich Russia and the oil rich Nations of the Middle East in order to ensure their survival into the 21st Century.
Leading the United States to the shocking conclusion that their very survival is at risk has been the evaporation of 45 percent of the World’s wealth which has caused a rapid plunge in Global manufacturing leading to a 49 percent collapse in US trade exports which the International Monetary Fund is reported has caused the World’s economy to shrink for the first time in 60 years and has lead Canada’s Central Bank chief David Dodge to state the World is “facing a long and deep recession that will fundamentally alter the nature of capitalism”.
Though Prime Minister Putin has warned that “resorting to a printing press would be unwise and extremely dangerous”, the already bankrupt United States, whose staggering debt is four times higher than their entire National income, has allowed its Federal Reserve Bank Chairman Ben “Throw Money Out of Helicopters” Bernanke to ‘create out of thin air’ a further $1.2 Trillion to stabilize the American economy, but which in turn has led to the collapse of the US Dollar leading the United Nations to recommend next week that the World “ditch the dollar as its reserve currency in favor of a shared basket of currencies”.
Russian economists further state in these reports that the United States has been left with ‘no other option’ than to force the massive devaluation of the US Dollar in order to ‘shake lose’ from banks and private investors the hundreds of billions they are currently hoarding and is being blamed for collapsing a United States where consumer spending accounts for two-thirds of its economy and which without money to borrow, or borrowers to loan to, is fast approaching the abyss.
With the devaluation of the US dollar, however, massive inflation will ensue causing the value of these currently hoarded hundreds of billions of US Dollars to plummet and forcing them to be spent before they become totally worthless, a policy which China, the largest Global holder of US debt, has voiced increasing concerns about and have cut back on their purchases of American debt even as desperation hits their own factories as orders plunge.
These top American Officials have also assured President Medvedev that new laws being written by the Obama administration will ‘completely’ reform the American financial system by fully integrating it into a single Global Economy due to be enacted during the coming G-20 summit in London.
When President Medvedev voiced his concerns to the Americans over his belief that the US Congress would not allow such a radical new set of laws to pass, these reports continue, Kissinger stated that the American people were being ‘primed’ to overwhelm their lawmakers into swiftly enacting ‘in its entirety’ the Obama administrations new banking and financial laws by the outrageous behavior of those collapsed financial giants that includes: 1.) The insurance giant AIG which after receiving over $300 billion in US taxpayer money paid out nearly $200 million in bonuses; 2.) The collapsed stock selling giant Merrill Lynch which after receiving $20 billion in US taxpayer money paid out $3.6 billion in bonuses; and 3.) The collapsed US banking giant Citigroup who after receiving $45 billion in US taxpayer money announced a $10 million redecoration of their executive office suites.
News from the United States today further confirm Kissinger’s assertions to President Medvedev as US Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner has now admitted that he had ordered US Senator Christopher Dodd to include the executive pay provision into the stimulus bill which was, in fact, a loophole allowing these controversial bonuses to be paid out.
To such machinations being utilized by their supposed ‘leaders’ against them in order to pave the road from a once sovereign United States to this New World Order these Americans remain nearly clueless, but when pressed by President Medvedev on the plans to ensure that civil society on the North American continent doesn’t break down Kissinger reportedly replied, “By September we’ll have confiscated all privately owned guns so it really doesn’t matter what we do, we’ll still be in charge”.
Russian Intelligence reports state that gun ownership statistics in the United States vary widely, but is estimated to be that nearly 50 percent of US households have nearly 270 million guns, none of which these Americans seem now ready to part with without a fight.
But, new reports coming from the United States show that they are fast adopting the tactics used by the German Nazis to disarm their society prior to the installation of fascist rule and martial law by first rendering all private guns useless by eliminating and restricting the ammunition they use. And from new reports coming from the United States we can see that this ‘plan’ is already being instituted with ammunition shortages being reported in Idaho, Georgia, and Louisiana, and a new law just introduced in California which would:
1. Stop the private transfer between individuals of more than 50 rounds of ammunition.
2. License and tax anyone selling handgun ammunition commercially and force these stores to get background checks on anyone selling ammunition.
3. Get a thumbprint from anyone buying handgun ammunition.
4. Ban all ammunition sales that don't take place face-to- face, in other words, ban mail-order sales.
Even more chilling for American gun owners was the Obama administrations order to the US Military on March 12 which stated: “Effective immediately DOD Surplus, LLC, will be implementing new requirements for mutilation of fired shell casings. The new DRMS requirement calls for DOD Surplus personnel to witness the mutilation of the property and sign the Certificate of Destruction.” which would have crippled the US ammunition industry, who are the largest purchasers of used military ammunition brass, but after found out about by US Senators was quickly withdrawn.
To the reasons feared by the leadership class in the United States of their citizens retaining the right to firearms we can read:
“As the growing world-wide economic crisis deepens, military forces from Canada, the United States, and the United Kingdom are preparing to meet angry citizens on the street. The economic crisis - and the public outrage it is causing - is at the forefront of intelligence agencies and military forces in the western world.
senojekips
Active member
Sick joke?? I'm not desperately looking for loopholes and threatening to take on the government like some spoilt child who thinks he might be in danger of losing his candy.
The fact remains, No Law, or for that matter, your precious Constitution, is immutable. What man can put together, he can take apart. You can ignore it at your peril.
All you know of me and my firearms is what I elect to tell you, the rest is poor guesswork.
Chukpike
Banned
The whole article is garbage!
The part about new law introduced in California is also Garbage. The 4 items listed above have cropped up in some form in past proposed legislation but not all together. None are active bills right now.They have also appeared in other states Possible legislation.
California has enough problems with a budget deficit that will choke a horse that the legislature will be to be busy trying to overcome this to do much in the way of gun control.
The ones that might have some concern, is anything that would possible raise money for the state, which might include taxes on ammunition.
The availability of ammunition is low, more do to people stocking up from fear generated by garbage like this.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
I've no idea if the article is garbage or not, but I'll take your word it is and hope your right.
Having been on the end of two bans in the UK and attempted bans here in South Africa I tend to not dismiss anything out of hand, but become very wary of governments.
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Chukpike
Banned
Not sure what you are talking about. I did not mean this as a joke. You made a decision that is all there is to it.
I agree with you. In fact the US is proof of this.
A King decided he would change laws and oppress his subjects. In the case of th US he was unsuccessful. His subjects responded with deadly force. They made a decision to stand against him. I can only hope I would have the guts to do the same.
Australia has been granted their Independence from a government. Your system of government operates on a top down method. You did earn this right, but you also agreed to operate under existing governments.
The US operates from the other direction.
The 13 original colonies banded together as a Confederation. When they took their freedom from British rule they became independent States. They decided to form a Union and work together for mutual benefit. In so doing they wrote a contract (the Constitution) to administrate though a central government. They were telling the main powers of the world that attack one of us. you are attacking all.
So in the case of the US central government giving the citizens 24 hours to give up their guns. The central government would be telling the states the central government is in charge. It won't happen.
Gun banning could be accomplished by whittling away a little at a time state by state. That is why it is important not to give an inch at the State level. It is also why it is important that the States and Federal government be reminded of their agreement to the people.(The Bill of Rights) It won't happen over night as it did in your country.
As for your statement, "your precious Constitution"
Damn right.:rock:
It also gives us freedom of speech.
Don't know what this means, unless you didn't tell us you were a felon and they took your guns for that reason? How's that for poor guess work?:smile:
Rob Henderson
Banned
I'd like to try to get back to the base of the topic, as the deviations get us into some wild hypotheticals...
My bottom line is that it depends on how the change came about. If the US federal government decided tomorrow to ban all firearms from private ownership, and anyone found in non-compliance with the law were subject to jail time, then the US would up and revolt. Now, if the government decided to squeeze tighter and tighter on the gun nuts little by little, it would stand a MUCH better chance.
But the simple fact of the matter is that no one in their right mind wants to get rid of all guns. There are a few extreme nut cases that think total disarmament is a good idea, but by and large, no one advocates banning of all firearms. It would never happen, so anything we can say here is only hypothetical.
Chukpike
Banned
"I'd like to try to get back to the base of the topic, as the deviations get us into some wild hypotheticals..." quoteRob Henderson
Since the original question was, "So if you are a US citizen. What would you really do if you had 24hours to surrender your weapons?", a wild hypothetical, is it proper to change at this point?
Rob Henderson
Banned
Okay, I'll be blunt. The argument isn't about the Constitution being a living document. It's about what would happen if we were given 24 hours to surrender our weapons. It wasn't about what the 13 colonies did, it's about what we would do. It's not about freedom of speech, it's about the right to bear arms.