Another Abu Ghraib?

[Corocotta]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm getting from your last post, staurofilakes, is that everyone involved isn't fighting the war in a moral way. As in, we are just as bad as the insurgents themselves.

You are right, I think that some times we are acting without moral. I know that are specific cases, like the Abu Ghraib prision or the british prisions in Irak, where prisioners are bad treated, violeting the Geneve Convention. I think the photos everybody saw are a really bad propaganda for this war, arab people will get anger and we will have more 11-M & 11-S.

 

[C/2nd Lt Robot]

You just made a major error. Not every soldier in Iraq was involved with the Abu Graib incident, it was only a few soldiers. That's like saying this forum is bad because we've had members being banned. When it comes right down to it no matter how hard you train someone to be morally right it is up to them if they will be moral or not.

 

[Corocotta]

Well, I do not know how many soldiers were involved, but there were tons of pictures. In the trials the soldiers said they were following orders....

 

[Big_Z]

Let me guess, you would rather have America submit to terrorist and let them pick our leaders too? You think you have the world figured out but I don't think you have a clue.

 

[sleepyscout]

I think on this needful war on terrorism we have to fight with wisdom, like the title above says. We have to use democratic ways for the fight, if we don´t, what will make us different of this fanatics?

What exactly is democratic fighting, democracy only works if the people choose to submit to democracy, these people don’t want to submit so there for we have to fight them. That sounds really bad but that’s the way the world works since man walked the earth. What makes us better then the fanatics there are allot of differences that make us better especially in the way we fight. however what I believe to the biggest issue is that i fight for the my fellow man and my country the terrorist fight for power for control of a population that they then force to submit to there believes. yes there are bad apples and yes things happen in war that normal society sea’s as wrong but because one incident happens and its on cnn for a month and they show allot of photos doesn’t make the rest of us bad. we aren’t raping and pillaging the local population we aren’t running around like the Nazis in France during ww2 we aren’t killing every single educated person in the country like in Cambodia and we aren’t sending every one to be reeducated like the Vietnamese yep some individuals claim they were tortured but I want more proof I want them to define the torture. I want more information about these people backgrounds what did they do that made them get noticed. It feels like the news media is not doing any research and just putting these story’s up there to make a buck and get more viewers.

 

[Corocotta]

Let me guess, you would rather have America submit to terrorist and let them pick our leaders too? You think you have the world figured out but I don't think you have a clue. If I thought a terrorist had information that could save lifes I would kick his teeth in to get it.

i hope you just kick the mouths of the bad guys...I hope you do not do many mistakes.....

 

[A Can of Man]

Personally from what I've seen, some people only listen after you've thoroughly screwed them up.

It's like this. There were some bad ass "gang" dudes who lived in my area way back when. One day the fake ass "gang" decided to stop us on the road with their pushbikes... we were 12 years old and they were between 11 and 15 I think. 8 or more of them, 3 of us. My friend tried to reason with them. Nothing. I just walked up to their leader guy and put a fist into his ear. He went down and the problem was solved instantly. Didn't even have to say a word.

Personally I think there's been too much of this "dialogue" crap with people who won't listen anyways. There are people you can talk and negotiate with and there are those who you just need to thoroughly beat the crap out of.

Avoiding a fight at the cost of everything isn't wisdom. It's cowardice.

 

[Corocotta]

Personally I think there's been too much of this "dialogue" crap with people who won't listen anyways. There are people you can talk and negotiate with and there are those who you just need to thoroughly beat the crap out of.

Avoiding a fight at the cost of everything isn't wisdom. It's cowardice.

Are you saying that what happened in Abu Ghraib is fine?? That was not a interrogatory, that was torture. People that tortured in Abu Ghraib are the cowards, they used their force and their superior position to humillate. I think that kind of people should enter jail and don´t get out for many years. I think you should take a look to those pictures again...only a mental perturbated could say those pictures are the right way to treat a prisioner.

 

[A Can of Man]

No.
That was a mistake. If anything because it adds to the enemy propaganda and hurts popular support.
As for the welfare of those guys, I really don't care.

 

[Redneck]

What's a "mental perturbated?"

Funny that you think that the perpetrators of the crimes at Abu Ghraib should go to prison staurofilakes, apparently my government agrees with you, logical conclusion being that these acts were and are not supported by a) the military, b) the government as a whole, and c) the Bush administration. What with all the practice with conspiracy theories we apparently have (from viewing the topics you and a couple others constantly post here), one would be kind of pushed to believe that if we had wanted to, we could have made Abu Ghraib disappear, hell if we can hide the systematic extermination of all minority groups for near on 100 years, a couple al-Q's getting kicked around should have been no problem. Kind of seems like a case of having your cake and eating it too there buddy.

 

[Corocotta]

What's a "mental perturbated?"

Funny that you think that the perpetrators of the crimes at Abu Ghraib should go to prison staurofilakes, apparently my government agrees with you, logical conclusion being that these acts were and are not supported by a) the military, b) the government as a whole, and c) the Bush administration. What with all the practice with conspiracy theories we apparently have (from viewing the topics you and a couple others constantly post here), one would be kind of pushed to believe that if we had wanted to, we could have made Abu Ghraib disappear, h**l if we can hide the systematic extermination of all minority groups for near on 100 years, a couple al-Q's getting kicked around should have been no problem. Kind of seems like a case of having your cake and eating it too there buddy.

With mental perturbated I meant crazy.

Why are you stranged that I think that thay should go to prision?? According to the report, which is a summary of the military's internal investigation of the abuses, soldiers testified that they had been ordered to abuse the prisoners, to prepare them for interrogation.
These orders allegedly came from both military intelligence officers and civilian consultants -- members of that class of Iraq warrior ever-so-euphemistically referred to as "private contractors," which is Pentagon-speak for paid mercenaries and "security" experts.

http://www.rotten.com/library/crime/prison/abu-ghraib/

 

[Corocotta]

No.
As for the welfare of those guys, I really don't care.

So you think this is the right wat to treat a prisioner??

a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;
b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's underwear;

f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to ********** themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and ***** to simulate electric torture;

i. (S) Writing "I am a Rapest" (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;

k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;

m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.

a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;

f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.


Wowwwwwwwwwwwww!! You must be really mean!!! :cen:

 

[Missileer]

Let me guess, you would rather have America submit to terrorist and let them pick our leaders too? You think you have the world figured out but I don't think you have a clue. If I thought a terrorist had information that could save lifes I would kick his teeth in to get it.

I wouldn't kick them out but I might consider using a spring loaded center punch and do them one at a time.

 

[Corocotta]

I understand that using the force sometimes is necesary, but from there to what happened in Abu Ghraib there is a big distance, and if you do not agree you have serious problems

 

[Redneck]

Why are you stranged that I think that thay should go to prision??

It was sarcasm there high speed.

The central problem with your position is you are assuming that the actions of a handful of INDIVIDUALS (I can make this bright red and flashing if that would help) who were PUNISHED (this too) for their actions are representative of the entire military and by extension my entire nation.

CFS, bud.

 

[Corocotta]

Why are you stranged that I think that thay should go to prision??

It was sarcasm there high speed.

The central problem with your position is you are assuming that the actions of a handful of INDIVIDUALS (I can make this bright red and flashing if that would help) who were PUNISHED (this too) for their actions are representative of the entire military and by extension my entire nation.

CFS, bud.

Would you please show me were did I say that those acts are representative of all US citizens? Do not put in my mouth words that I did not say. I have to remember you that in Guantanamo is probably happening the same, US is violating human rights constantly, the thing is that we cann´t see photos of there,may be the soldiers there are not as stupid as in Abu Ghraib.
I just said that the soldiers were following orders.

 

[MontyB]

The central problem with your position is you are assuming that the actions of a handful of INDIVIDUALS (I can make this bright red and flashing if that would help) who were PUNISHED (this too) for their actions are representative of the entire military and by extension my entire nation.

Its kind of amusing a year or so ago I used the same argument however unfortunately this is not the case, torture is seen as routine and systematic within all area's of the "war on terror" and it is carried out by both the US and its allies.


http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33349-2005Jan24.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3739561.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3706050.stm

http://afghannews.net/index.php?action=show&type=news&id=2157

Now I personally agree with a few people here that IF the person has information that can prevent and attack and save innocent lives then by all means extract it in any way necessary BUT many of the people in these prisons are not charged with anything, are denied methods of proving innocence and in some cases are there on extremely dodgy evidence.

So the question I have for you is:
Would you accept the same rules of detention for any crime in the US ie if the authorities suspected you of comitting a crime they can arrest and detain you without trial or legal representation indefinately?.

Mod edit: You most certainly can. And when I am no longer a member of the staff of this forum, your suggestion might hold water. :lol:

 

[Redneck]

Would you please show me were did I say that those acts are representative of all US citizens?

Ok, here you go:

I have to remember you that in Guantanamo is probably happening the same, US is violating human rights constantly, the thing is that we cann´t see photos of there.

Got anything else? :lol:

And you constantly jump from "allegations" and "probablies" to statements that the United States IS doing or HAS done something. I realize there is a language barrier here, so hopefully this will help future discussions:

allegation: al·le·ga·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (l-gshn)
n.
(1) Something alleged; an assertion: allegations of disloyalty.
(2) The act of alleging.
(3) A statement asserting something without proof


alleged: al·leged ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-ljd, -ljd)
adj.
Represented as existing or as being as described but not so proved; supposed.

 

[MontyB]

Mod edit: You most certainly can. And when I am no longer a member of the staff of this forum, your suggestion might hold water. Laughing

So you are saying the rules dont apply to all?.

Got anything else? Laughing

Yes just one thing:

You didnt answer the question I asked of you.

ques·tion Pronunciation Key (kwschn)
n.

1. An expression of inquiry that invites or calls for a reply.
2. An interrogative sentence, phrase, or gesture.
3. A subject or point open to controversy; an issue.
4. A difficult matter; a problem: a question of ethics.
5. A point or subject under discussion or consideration.

Once again the question.

Would you accept the same rules of detention for any crime in the US ie if the authorities suspected you of comitting a crime they can arrest and detain you without trial or legal representation indefinately?.[/b]

 

[Redneck]

:lol: I didn't answer your question because we posted at the same time and your question (1. An expression of inquiry that invites or calls for a reply. ) did not exist when I was writing my reply.

Answer 1) No, I am saying that it is not your job to regulate myself or any other moderator or member of this forum. If you feel I need some regulating, contact Redleg, that's his department.

Answer 2) No, because the crimes for which these people are being detained are in an entirely different class than normal criminal law, and the perpetrators and suspected perpetrators are themselves in a different class and are not protected by the rights of citizenship. You seem to be under the impression that the detainees were chosen at random, rather than being legitimately bad people, you don't really get your name on the type of s**tlist that would send you to Gitmo without doing some pretty definitely bad things.