Ahhh, so typical, now I see it all, it's my fault because I accept the facts, whereas you have an unproven theory to fall back on, making you right.
Every time a person brings "god" into a debate, they are slipping further into lala land, either refusing to accept responsibility or trying to evade having to think about fixing the problem. "It's all god's will"
It's not making mistakes that sets these people aside, it's their steadfast refusal to accept that god had nothing to do with it, thereby releasing them from either accepting responsibility or trying to find the root of the problem.
Again, do you believe this?:...
No, Seno, you've missed my point entirely.
I am not "blaming" anyone or anything. I never have. I never will. You and I have never once disagreed that man makes his own falls and ascensions and is completely responsible for his own decisions and ramifications.
It no one's "fault" about any debate with God, because neither of us can prove or disprove His existence - that's why it is a THEORETICAL debate: we are discussing possibilities, not facts.
You keep bringing up this incessant need to state that I, and others like me, use the concept of God as a crutch... "releasing them from either accepting responsibility or trying to find the root of the problem."
How many times must I say that I have NEVER failed to take responsibility for my own actions?
In fact, MOST Christians ardently believe that the greatest freedom mankind has is to screw up. To err is human, and all that rigmarole.
Why can you not accept that I live my life accepting my flaws as a character in need of revision? There's no God about that at all. Just Richard and how he REACTS to life as he ACTS in it.
I don't believe God excuses me for anything. I believe that God created me with a sense of right and wrong, with the free will to do the right or wrong thing, and with the intelligence to know that what I receive will be based on the wrongs and the rights I deserve for those decisions.
I don't help people believing in some reward, and I don't rob banks expecting reprieve and leniency. None of these things are either part of my faith or evidence OF my faith. They are my CHARACTER, my morals and principles, my ingrained sense of compassion, right and wrong.
I cannot for the life of me understand why you so wish to paint me with such biased brushes. My God is a God of LOVE and of JUSTICE. He is a God of FREE WILL, of NON-INTERFERENCE, a sideline cheerleader more than a referee. He refuses to use His power to direct me (or anyone), because doing so wouldn't allow me to freely love Him. It would demand I do. That is not the God of my understanding.
And, no, I do not place any merit or credence in the verse you quoted. The bible, while full of great principles, is a work of authorship that has been translated umpteen millions of times by... flawed men. "Good" book. Not "Perfect" book.
The verse you quoted is the precept for the argument of pre-ordainment, otherwise known as predestination, which was removed by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. You can't take a verse like that out of context. And you really need a Concordance to develop the true meaning in the original writ.
It states that, yes, God knows it all before we do it. He exists on a plane that is not controlled by the parameters of
place or
time as we ourselves understand them.
But it is also clear that through Christ, God will never again interfere with man's free will. So while God KNOWS, He doesn't CONTROL.
Think of it this way: you know that your kids play with toys. You have bought the toys, so you know what toys they have. You set the rules for playtime, so you know when and where they are supposed to be playing with them, and when and where they are NOT supposed to be playing with them. And you know that you bought them to be played with a certain way.
But do you actually get down there with them and demand that they play with them according to your expectations, your very demands of how YOU would play with them were you still underdeveloped enough to take pleasure in such things?
No. You let your kids play with their toys to foster their imagination and growth. They may not play with them when you figured they would, choosing instead to climb a tree; or how you figured they would, choosing instead to enter their own imaginary world without your interference.
That's a tiny bit of the way I PERSONALLY see God: loving, caring, wanting us to have the best, but knowing that our best only comes when He's not trying to force Himself on us.
I told you: I am not your "average" Christian. You have a good argument with them. But not with me, my friend.