If someone nuked the Ka'bah, or the Dome of the Rock and Israel/America/insert any country claimed responsibilty, there would be MILLIONS flocking to fight.

We had a debate on this not too lonag go and maybe you could give your opinion as a muslim.

Im not saying your planning anything or anything crazy just, if you knew that all of your holy sites would be vaporized if any American cities were nuked do you think the radicals in your relegion would still attack?


ps- congrats on being more mature than most people on this board(myself included) , especially being 15.

Originally Posted by Radwan

What I meant to say is that the only reason that there would be bloodshed is if there were a religious object destroyed.

But you didn't say that. You said if Israel were to invade another country.

So if Israel invaded another Muslim country, there would be bloodshed.

You just added the religious artifacts destruction as an afterthought. The thing is you say one thing and you mean another. Just like now. I see this alot coming from Muslims especially when talking about Israel.

Nationalism in those countries. Bleh. They don't care.

Religion? Yes. A major factor. I admit, even in my own life, religion is a huge factor. Would I die for religion? I'll be honest, yes. Anyone else who is a devout (insert religion) would probably die for their cause/religion too.

Absolutely totaly correct. I agree with you here.

sorry radwan i misunderstood your first post, i believe respecting the religion and culture of any place you are occupying is always important. i believe you were making the point that mideastern people are more loyal to their religion than their country. correct me if im wrong.

Well crap, the stupid forum logged me out and completely deleted my very large post. GRRR.

Well crap, the stupid forum logged me out and completely deleted my very large post. GRRR.

Wanted to respond to some of the discussion thusfar. First of all, I want it to be understood that I hold no prejudice against Muslims or anyone else. I have had several friends and aquaintences who were Muslim and I know that they are good people who believe in world peace and tollerance. I appreciate Radwan's courtesy and good manners in expressing his views from the perspective of Islam.

You're telling of the Crusades is a tad one-sided, albeit such travesties did most certainly occur. I have to agree that the Crusades should be irrelevant as a basis for anything today. Unfortunately, it still festers in the minds and hearts of Muslims in this world. I think it becomes a broad excuse for xenophobia and bigotry in the Muslim world today. After all, it was not the Christians who struck first. The Christians held the Holy Land first and they were conquerred by the Muslims under the philosophy of "spreading Islam by the sword." They took Jerusalem, killed numerous Christians and demolished every Christian holy site in the entire city save one: the Church of the Nativity. That particular church was spared only because of its depiction of the Three Wise Men as Persians (who were an integral part of Islam at that time.) At the time of the Crusades, the Islamic world was unquestionably the more civilized. But Muslims committed attrocities a plenty, mostly much later on. When the Turkish forces took Constantinople, they slaughtered every man woman and child in the city ... because they had been so stubborn and difficult to take. The Hagia Sofia, centuries long the crown jewel and greatest of Christian cathedrals was desecrated (from the Christian viewpoint) and turned into a Muslim mosque. For Eastern Orthodox Christians, this would have been the equivalent of conquering Mecca, wiping out all trace of the Muslim faith from it, and converting all of its mosques into Christian cathedrals.

Ultimately, the end result of the religious bigotry that fueled both the Crusades and the Jihads was stalemate. Neither religion could countenance the existence of the other, but neither could manage wipe out the other. The Crusades are a poor excuse for Muslim xenophobia. They are 800-1000 years gone. In the Christian world, the mentality that fueled the Crusades is almost completely gone.

Some new animosity has resulted from the attacks of 9/11 and all prior and subsequent Muslim instigated terrorist attacks. Would the Muslim world sit idly by if an extremist group in the United States managed to drop a tactical nuclear warhead on Mecca? I'm betting the answer is a resounding, "No!" So why is America to be faulted for trying to retaliate after 9/11.

Using the Crusades as an excuse for fearing/hating Americans is particularly ludicrous. The United States of America held as one of its founding principals the Freedom of Religion. Why? Because the founding fathers of this nation remembered well the murderous results of religious intollerance. They sought to make this land a complete counterculture to the madness that had gripped their European forefathers for centuries. And most importantly, the United States of America would not come into existence until 700 years after the Crusades. How can anyone conceive of a direct association between the Crusades and the USA??

In the balancing out of things, it has been the Muslim world and not the Christian world that is guilty of the most recent and most insidious Muslim/Christian attrocities. You can read about the Armenian Holocaust here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Holocaust or you can look through the thread about that subject on this forum. I do not know of any attocity committed by Christendom against Islam that managed to tally over 1 million intentional deaths.
The main difference between the two viewpoints is that the Christan world has chosen not to hold onto centries old grudges. For some reason, apparently Muslims do.

As far as Israel is concerned, the unceasing Muslim rhetoric becomes tiresome and counterproductive. "The Israelis stole the land of the Palestine from the Palestinian people and should be forced to return them." This concept has been the outcry of the Muslim world since the creation of the State of Israel in the 1940's. It comes down to a failure to admit reality. Israel and her people have no intention of leaving. They have been horribly abused by all the nations of the world for centuries. Now they have their own nation on lands that were theirs anciently. They going to give up the lands they now hold, pack up and leave. Those lands are sacred to them and to their relious convictions. The Palestinians have been handed a raw deal, but so were countless other displaced peoples. The Armenians were handed a far worse deal by the tender mercies of the biggotted Muslims of the Ottoman Empire. The long and short of it: The Muslim world has been beating its head against a brick wall and refusing to look for alternate solutions.

That was an interesting post if I do say so myself Mr. Thunder. And I have an answer for every one of those points and questions you have.

First off.

America retaliating for what happened at September 11th is completely understandable. Get back at the guys who did it to you. Invade Afganistan, get the guy who did it. I completely agree. Hell, thanks for cutting the head off of a major terrorist group that has plagued our area for YEARS.

I was in Jordan when the terrorist thing happened. And to tell you the truth, there were people who felt sad about what happened to America. And hoped that America would get back at the guys who did it. Then you had those who completely hated America and were happy that so many had died.

Oh and, America is basically the new 'head' of the West. When a Middle eastern person sees the West, they think of America, then of Europe nowadays. Since America is doing alot of dabbling in the Mid East, then that's why they feel this way. Now, I can't get into the heads of every single one of my people. But I think this is basic how everyone is feeling about it over there.


It isn't a 'grudge'. It's just a fear. Sure, the image has changed. The ways of the Christians have changed and there aren't any crusades. But there are still wars erupting all over the Mid East. And when you think about it, what else does the average city dweller or bedouin have to think? That average person does not want to blame themselves for the problem. No, so they blame someone ELSE. Pass the problem to someone else. Which is why you get some guys like Al-Zerkawi, etc... This is then changed and spread around and they are telling OTHER people "hate america" and whatnot. You can guess where it goes from there.


Oh and. Let's have something happen here.

America is NOT our country. You know who's it really belongs to? The Native Americans. So let's say that all of a sudden America is defeated in a HUGE war. And we're all taken by like... Let's choose a country like China. Now, China doesn't want to govern this area any longer. Since the International community is pissed that they have control of the area. So China relinquishes their command and hands it to the rightful owners, the Native Americans. The Native Americans then push us all out of our homes and into refugee camps into neighboring countries like Canada and Mexico.

America also has religious precendence to Native Americans. I myself am (slighty, ever so slightly) Chikasaw. If I am right, then the Chickasaw and other tribes have seen america as their 'religious' land. So that means that they should have this land. Am I right? It's not right, cuz your displacing MILLIONS upon MILLIONS. But, it's their land originally and it was taken away brutally. They've suffered hundreds of years of persecution and war. And finally they get their land back. So that makes it right by your standards?

See what I'm getting at here?

But the US has given some of the land back to the Native Americans, its called reservations.

You have small slivers of Indian governed land surrounded by the Americans, they go by their old tribal ways and we live in peace.

The case is the same for Israel, a small sliver of land surronded by huge portions of Muslim lands and countries.

Your comaprison is not the same. Israel afterall did not take all Arab land, just a very small part, yet almost all Muslims are so vehement in destroying them. It would be comparable to all for the West; America, Canada, and Europe wanting to destroy the Native Americans becasue they have a number reservations in Western held soil, which would be totaly irrational.

How come they can't treat the Jews like we treat the Native Americans, let them live in peace in their own small sliver of land? Instead of trying to anihilate them every chance they get.

Originally Posted by gladius

The case is the same for Israel, a small sliver of land surronded by huge portions of Muslim lands and countries.

Your comaprison is not the same. Israel afterall did not take all Arab land, just a very small part, yet almost all Muslims are so vehement in destroying them. It would be comparable to all for the West; America, Canada, and Europe wanting to destroy the Native Americans becasue they have a number reservations in Western held soil, which would be totaly irrational.

How come they can't treat the Jews like we treat the Native Americans, let them live in peace in their own small sliver of land? Instead of trying to anihilate them every chance they get.

Heh I think it's jealousy... How long have most Arab countries been around and how long has Israel been around? Israel has only been around for about 50 years and yet they have an excellent economy, stable government, and ownage military. If it were from any other country, then most Arab/Muslim countries would be whatevers with it, but coming from a religious foe (Israel) it's like a double roundhouse kick to the face to them. Which leads me to my 2nd point: religion. It seems the basis of all these ME problems stem from religion. How about being civilized and separating church from state like most of the modern developed world? Hey, maybe the economy will pick up and the country will actually flourish! Even though the US is built upon the ideals and values of Christianity, it maintains a strict sense of separation between church and state to deter radical and outrageous thinking imposed upon the people.

You guys hear about that Iranian teenager who was sentenced to death because she fought off her rapist? I mean, wtf is that?!! Or about the Pakistani woman (I think her name was Bilbi or something) who was raped by 5 men because her brother was caught with a girl from a "higher" tribe? These are the types of laws that will keep the Muslim/Arab nations below the Western nations. Where there is injustice and poverty like this, religion prospers because it gives the people hope. Where religion prospers, the leaders of that religion (clerics, immans, etc.) will take full advantage of it and use the people.

As for Israel really belonging to Palestine. that's a circular arguement. We can sit here and quote back to the times of Adam and Eve and still not have a clear answer. I see it as a remnant of the "old world" when nations would roam the globe and colonize who they could beat down. Where do we draw the line on where what boundaries define what countries because of the people who were there first? 1000 A.D.? The 18th century? Perhaps 4000 B.C.? As I see it, the world today is more stable therefore the boundaries of nations are pretty much permanent nowadays aside from minor squabbles between strips of land and islets. Israel has already given up a large portion of the land that was given to them by the British in exchange for peace but it seems that the Palestinians want the whole damn continent. As for Jerusalem, as a Catholic (who would die for his faith) I would prefer it in the hands of Israel. Why? Because I'd prefer the city where my Christ spent most of his life in not be blown up by suicide bombers.

I can't reply?? I have my reply all typed out and saved in Word and in my email, but I can't submit it. Yet I can submit this short little thing. Why?? Okay, I'm going to try adding it in piecemeal:::

Originally Posted by Radwan

That was an interesting post if I do say so myself Mr. Thunder. And I have an answer for every one of those points and questions you have.

Originally Posted by Radwan

First off.

America retaliating for what happened at September 11th is completely understandable. Get back at the guys who did it to you. Invade Afganistan, get the guy who did it. I completely agree. Hell, thanks for cutting the head off of a major terrorist group that has plagued our area for YEARS.

I was in Jordan when the terrorist thing happened. And to tell you the truth, there were people who felt sad about what happened to America. And hoped that America would get back at the guys who did it.

It’s good to hear that you see it that way. I sincerely hope that we get as many members of Al Qaeda as possible and that they get their deserved punishment: A life prison sentence, in solitary confinement so their fellow prisoners can’t kill them. That is what Osama Bin Ladin deserves if he is really still alive. Most importantly, it denies them all “martyrdom” along with all that other nonsense about going to paradise for dying for the cause of Islam. There is no doubt in the minds of any right thinking Muslim. The 9/11 attackers are going to suffering in Hell (the Muslim equivalent anyways) for eternity because they committed murder against the innocent. I think that Afghanistan was a clear and obvious retaliation to the 9/11 attacks. Also, the non-Muslim Afghanistanis deserved a break from being persecuted for not believing in the right religion.

Iraq is a lot more difficult to make the connection with. I do not believe that Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein had just cast aside their differences and agreed to work together. They genuinely hated each other. But the bigger problem was that the Iraq War was sold completely wrong by the Bush Administration. After all, pointing out that Saddam Hussein was the world’s number one funder of Terrorism worldwide would have been a good move. It makes an easy connection to the “Worldwide War On Terror” that way. Unfortunately, they sold the Iraq War on WMD’s and that blew up in their faces.

Okay, this is getting stupid. I can't get my full post through, so I'm going to break it up. Mods, PLEASE FEEL FREE to combine my "back to back post" problem. I can't seem to do so for myself.