RUSSIA versus EUROPE: who'll win? - Page 2




 
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July 12th, 2004  
Doc.S
 
Damien435:


Please keep on ---- this is far better then Band Of Brothers on the freaking TV!!!! Better then Tom Clancys Red Storm Rising!!!! * salute Damien435*


Cheers:
Doc.S

July 12th, 2004  
Snauhi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFrog
No offence to nobody:

If there is a conventional war btw EU and Russia, Russia will be dead in months.

EU has Germany, UK, France, Italy strong and big countires.

EU's economy and technology are way better than Russia.

EU's population is about 2.5 times bigger than Russia's.

EU can produce any advanced weapons in war time.

EU has the best trained army after USA.

If Russia starts the sudden attack, some small countries along the Russian border will be lost in the beginning, but then EU will crash Russia in a few weeks.
eu wont be able supply ther armys in Russia. EU airforce will be shut down fast over Russian skyes
July 12th, 2004  
Snauhi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFrog
No offence to nobody:

If there is a conventional war btw EU and Russia, Russia will be dead in months.

EU has Germany, UK, France, Italy strong and big countires.

EU's economy and technology are way better than Russia.

EU's population is about 2.5 times bigger than Russia's.

EU can produce any advanced weapons in war time.

EU has the best trained army after USA.

If Russia starts the sudden attack, some small countries along the Russian border will be lost in the beginning, but then EU will crash Russia in a few weeks.
UK ,France and Germany are strong countrys BUT they cant defeat Russia, they dont have enough troops to counquer Russia.

yes EU's economy is better, but techology...(give me proof)

yes they are bigger, but Russia have more tanks..

cant Russia produce weapons in wartime... what did Russia do in WW2 and Russias situation is better now..


Best trained thats really... not sure(give me proof)



Italys Army

Aktive: 230.350
Reserve: 65.200

Landstreitkraft (Army)
Soldaten (Soldiers) 137.000
Kampfpanzer (Main Battle Tanks) 200
Gepanzerte Fahrzeuge (Armored Vehicles) 2.880
Artillerie 895
Kampfhubschrauber (Armed Helicopters) 60
Hubschrauber (Helicopters) 195



Luftstreitkraft (Air Force)
Soldaten (Soldiers) 55.350
Kampfflugzeuge (Combat Aircrafts) 399
Transportflugzeuge (Transport Aircrafts) 8
Hubschrauber (Helicopters) 101



Seestreitkraft (Navy)
Soldaten (Soldiers) 38.000
inkl. Marines 1.000
inkl. Marineflieger 2.500
Flugzeugträger (Aircrafts Carriers) 1
Zerstörer (Destroyers) 5
Fregatten (Frigates) 14
Korvetten (Corvettes) 8
Schnellboote (Patrol Boats) 14
Minenboote (Mine Warfare Vessels) 13
Uboote (Submarines) 7
Kampfflugzeuge (Combat Aircrafts) 18
Hubschrauber (Helicopters



Frances Army

Aktive (Actives): 245.000
Reserve (Reserves):419.000

Soldaten (Soldiers) 137.000
Kampfpanzer (Main Battle Tanks) 245
gepanzerte Fahrzeuge (Armored Vehicles) 5.833
Artillerie 484
Kampfhubschrauber (Armed Helicopters) 253
Hubschrauber (Helicopters) 277



Luftstreitkraft (Air Force)
Soldaten (Soldiers) 64.000
Kampfflugzeuge (Combat Aircrafts) 413
Transportflugzeuge (Transport Aircrafts) 116
Hubschrauber (Helicopters) 108



Seestreitkraft (Navy)
Soldaten (Soldiers) 44.000
Marines 2.000
Marineflieger (Air Wing) 3.500
Kampfflugzeuge (Combat Aircrafts) 54
Hubschrauber (Helicopters) 118
Flugzeugträger (Aircraft Carriers) 1
Hubschrauberträger (Helicopter Carriers) 1
Zerstörer (Destroyers) 3
Fregatten (Frigates) 20
Uboote (Submarines) 10
Patrouillenboote (Patrol Boats) 40
Minenboote (Mine Warfare Vessles



UK Army

Aktive (Actives): 205.600
Reserve (Reserves): 262.000

Soldaten (Soldiers) 109.500
Kampfpanzer (Main Battle Tanks) 386
gepanzerte Fahrzeuge (Armored Vehicles) 3.326
Panzerhaubitzen (Self Propelled) 180
Kampfhubschrauber (Armed Helicopters) 177
Hubschrauber (Helicopters) 144



Luftstreitkraft (Air Force)
Soldaten (Soldiers) 53.700
Kampflugzeuge (69 in Reserve) 231
Transportflugzeuge (Transport Aircrafts) 79
Hubschrauber (Helicopters) 136



Seestreitkraft (Navy)
Soldaten (Soldiers) 42.400
Marines (6.800)
Marineflieger (Air Wing) (6.800)
Kampfflugzeuge (Combat Aircrafts) 50
Hubschrauber (Helicopters) 126
Flugzeugträger (Aircraft Carriers) 3
Zerstörer (Destroyers) 11
Fregatten (Friagtes) 21
Patrouillenboote (Patrol Boats) 9
Minenboote (Mine Warfare Vessels) 22
Uboote (Subamrines)




Russias Army

Aktive (Actives): ca. 980.000
Reservisten (Reserves): ca. 2.500.000

Soldaten (Soldiers) 321.000
Kampfpanzer (Main Battle Tanks) 21.370
gepanzerte Fahrzeuge (Armored Vehicles) 29.000
Artilleriegeschütze (Artillery) 20.500
Kampfhubschrauber (Armed Helicopters) 1.700
Helikopter (Helicopters) 1.200



Luftstreitkraft (Air Force)
Soldaten (Soldiers) 184.600
Kampfflugzeuge (Combat Aircrafts) 2.600
Transportflugzeuge (Transport Aircrats) 280



Strategische/Weltraum Kräfte (Strategic/Space Forces)
Soldaten Nuklear-Kräfte
149.000
Soldaten Raketen-Kräfte 100.000
Soldaten Luftverteidigung 21.000
Bomber 74
ICBMs 740



Seestreitkraft (Navy)
Soldaten (Soldiers) 171.500
Marines 9.500
Marineflieger (Naval Aviation) 35.000
Kampfflugzeuge (Combat Aircrafts) 217
Kampfhubschrauber (Combat Helicopters) 102
Flugzeugträger (Aircraft Carrier) 1
Kreuzer (Cruiser) 7
Zerstörer (Destroyers) 14
Fregatten (Frigates) 10
Uboote (Subamrines) 53
Patrouillenboote (Patrol Boats) 108
Minenboote (Mine Warfare Vessels) 72
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July 12th, 2004  
yurry
 


Thats great

Where did you get the stats from?
July 12th, 2004  
yurry
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingFrog
No offence to nobody:

If there is a conventional war btw EU and Russia, Russia will be dead in months.

EU has Germany, UK, France, Italy strong and big countires.

EU's economy and technology are way better than Russia.

EU's population is about 2.5 times bigger than Russia's.

EU can produce any advanced weapons in war time.

EU has the best trained army after USA.
Agree only about the economy.

I belive the Russian technology is not that much inferior. The Russians have advanced technology, but in limited numbers. They still have vast amounts of aging designes (T-72), but the newer versions are in comparison few. But you must take into account that Europe also has relativly small amounts of equipment alltough all is modern. So I'd say they are quite equal.

Russia most certinaly has better manufacturing conditions in wartime. If it is at least a bit like Yugoslavia (where we once lived) and was also once communist than most factories would have underground manufacturing space in case of war. The industrial base is also far from the front in Siberia in comparison to Europe where the Ruhr and other regions could very quickly be overruned or at least shelled.

As for the size if I didn't misscalculate Italy+UK+Germany+France=8% of Russia+Ukraine 8)

Manpower I must allso agree with FlyingFrog
July 12th, 2004  
Snauhi
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yurry


Thats great

Where did you get the stats from?
www.globaldefence.net(its in german ,but its easy to navigate)
July 12th, 2004  
Pollux
 
Ok Russia has by far far more manpower. But will they use every man to attack EU?
And we all know in what shape most parts of the russian army are....
And remember, germany had 50 years to prepare for a warshaw pact attack. And we did. During my time at officers course we played that scenario some times in out tactics lessons.
Remember we have a conscript army. So every man in Germany went through a military training, that was at least 9 months long. In case of war war it was planned to reactivate out reserve troops. Every man, who has served in the military had his place in those reserve troops. They had to practice several times a year. I think at least 8 weeks. Every Reserve soldier knew the hole, he would hide and wait, if the russians had attacked. And the Bundeswehr had enough brandnew equipment in depots for the reserve troops. with its reserve troops the Bundeswehr has 5.000.000 soldiers, everybody fully equipped with up to date material.
With enough time to prepare, those men were able to turn germany into a fortress. there where 10 armored korps stationed in the east of germany in case of war.......
July 12th, 2004  
FlyingFrog
 
Quote:
UK ,France and Germany are strong countrys BUT they cant defeat Russia, they dont have enough troops to counquer Russia.

yes EU's economy is better, but techology...(give me proof)

yes they are bigger, but Russia have more tanks..

cant Russia produce weapons in wartime... what did Russia do in WW2 and Russias situation is better now..


Best trained thats really... not sure(give me proof)
Man, if the UK, Germany, France, Italy WANT, they can build a much larger army than russian's, they have the money, manpower, how is it not possible for them to do it?

You mean Russian technology better than EU's? You r kidding yourself?

EU's army not much better trained than Russians? We all know russian army is now in very poor condition, they can't pay the salary to the army officiers and the equips are rusting, we have plenty of reports on this on newspaper and on TV, no need to deny. Pride can not hide the reality.

Russia makes some good weapons, but we all know Russina itself cannot afford it but sell to other countries.

USSR is dead long long time ago, Russina is not a real big power more except those useless nukes.

Germany, UK have 2 of the top 5 tanks in the world, they got the money, they can make as many as possible if they must prepare for war.
July 12th, 2004  
AlexKall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollux
Ok Russia has by far far more manpower. But will they use every man to attack EU?
And we all know in what shape most parts of the russian army are....
And remember, germany had 50 years to prepare for a warshaw pact attack. And we did. During my time at officers course we played that scenario some times in out tactics lessons.
Remember we have a conscript army. So every man in Germany went through a military training, that was at least 9 months long. In case of war war it was planned to reactivate out reserve troops. Every man, who has served in the military had his place in those reserve troops. They had to practice several times a year. I think at least 8 weeks. Every Reserve soldier knew the hole, he would hide and wait, if the russians had attacked. And the Bundeswehr had enough brandnew equipment in depots for the reserve troops. with its reserve troops the Bundeswehr has 5.000.000 soldiers, everybody fully equipped with up to date material.
With enough time to prepare, those men were able to turn germany into a fortress. there where 10 armored korps stationed in the east of germany in case of war.......
Which is the case of Sweden, incase of war everyone between 15 - 75 are due to participate in some way. Volvo, Saab, Ericsson and other factories are converted within 24 hours to produce weapons of all kinds. We also make our own tanks including the STRV 122. Also Hägglunds, Bofors and Celsius Tech Systems AB are already producing weapons and electronics.
Volvo and Saab also make weapons and military materials as we speak but not only so it would be extended even futher.

We currently have around 200 top of the line STRV 122 tanks.

Hägglunds, Bofors and Celsius Tech Systems AB are the makers of the STRV 122 also in a case of war most countries in EU would participate which would give a large standing army.

Who would win? Would probebly be hard to say as there are many things to take into count.
July 12th, 2004  
AlexKall
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien435
While I am not an expert I would like to give my opinion.

Ok, here it goes, (this is assuming Russia is the aggressor) Russia, along with their allies in the Ukraine, will invade Belarus and the Baltic States, they will win, almost no contest, Russia will invade Finland to protect their Navy as it moves through the Black Sea, once again the Russians will win again, they will sweep through Sweden, then Norway, here they will face some problems defeating, of all people, the Norwegian Coast Guard as they will have trouble getting into the many Fjords on the Norwegian Coast, this will plaque them all during the war. From Norwegian airbases they will launch planes to attack Britain, hitting their fleet from the air, this will have little impact on the Royal Navy but will slow them down if their is an attempt to help the refugees from the Scandinavian Countries, all this will have happened in a mere 3 weeks to a month. Ukrainian forces will attack Romania, after a somewhat short campaign taking about 2 months the Ukrainian forces will be the victors, they will then sweep through Bulgaria and Albania, laying siege to Greece to prevent them from sending their troops to aid in the defense of Poland.

After a short pause by the Russians they will attack Poland, they will initially be victorious in all of their battles, but before to long they will start running into the German Army with their Leopard tanks. The Russians will lose a staggering amount of tanks, almost 3 to 1 against the superior German tanks. But Russia will eventually be victorious as the bulk of the German Army was kept back to defend themselves should Russia decide to hop across the Baltic and attack Denmark and Northern Germany. After about 3 months of fighting the Russians will defeat Poland. They will then prepare to invade Germany, they will be forced to attack the main German Army as the Czecks will be in heavily defended, fortified, mountain bases, making an attack almost suicidal for the Russians. Finally the Russians attack, the Germans, being, in my opinion, the strongest nation on continental europe, will use their superior tanks and tactics to defeat the Russians, knocking out several thousand Russian tanks, but their losses will be great also, especially since the Russians have so many more tanks. The Russians will then use their Air Force and long range missiles to bomb German positions, the German Airforce and Airdefenses will shoot down many Russian planes but enough will get through to do serious damage to the German defenses. Two days later a massive artillery strike will be launched on the front line German troops, the Russians will attack later that same day, after a few hours of heavy fighting they will break through near Szczecin in Northern Poland. In panic and disarray several nearby German units will retreat, causing a domino effect, all will be falling back towards Berlin to defend against the inevitable Russian siege and attack of the city. The Russians will surround the city, laying siege to it instead of just attacking. Hundreds of missiles and thousands of artillery shells will rain down on the city daily. After 5 weeks the Germans will either be forced to surrender, attack the Russians, or starve to death. They will attack, they will first launch missiles against the troops to the north of the city, the Russians, expecting the attack to occur in that area will shift some, but not many, troops to the north of the city. The Germans will then attack to the south and west, breaking through the Russian lands and thousands of German troops and equipment will be rushed through the gap and towards the Rhine, however thousands more will be forced to stay in the city, the Russians, angry and frustrated will then attack the city, after weeks of heavy street fighting the Germans will eventually be overwhelmed and forced to surrender.

The remnants of the German forces that escaped Berlin will set up a final defense near Dusseldorf and Cologne, on the Rhine, they will cross the river and all the bridges on the Rhine will be destroyed.

I will continue this in a later post, please tell me what you think thus far, and I promise, the outcome will surprise you.
Very interesting, i want the conntinued storie!