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AFAIK the whole Vietnam debacle came from that (and the partisan "approved" success stories). Frankly, I find it hard to discuss on that level. Any opponent, if you are in a war alrite, *deserves* to be taken seriously. They do not have high tech? But they have the most intelligent bombs: Humans. They do not have F-Wahtevers, and not sats? Well, the have truckloads of 155mms, local terrain on their side, talk the talk and are not afraid to use any of them virtues. We are facing an enemy who knows about his strength and weaknesses as any military commander, and so far they are making quite well from a warfighter POV (and are about to be even winning the PR war). Those are military commanders, like it or not, studying carefully the rules, strats and tactics of 4th gen warfare, not dumbasses. I challenge you (bropous) to test your ability as (just a Rgt) commander in a simulation (PM me for BLUE site and PW if you are interested), overview here: http://www.opcon.org/SadrCity/ While I cannot go on as BLUE cdr there due to time restraints, it will give you a slightly bit more realistic idea about the problems Coalition Forces are facing out there (and one of them being an attitude like the one you are displaying). Warfare is warfare, and arrogance twrads enemy strats or tactics has not won one IIRC. Rattler |
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rattler: Thanks for the link. I'll certainly check it out, but my wargaming skills are a little better at the operational level instead of tactical. I'll give it a good go, though.
However, I'm not so clear on your "Sometimes you just gotta clap yourself on the back..." statement. Are you equating my views with Neo-Nazis or am I misunderstanding your point? I sincerely think I am missing your point, though, not being intentionally dense, and would like to understand what you mean. I've certainly not taken ANY position that someone doesn't have a right to their opinion, nor to express it; doesn't mean I have to agree with it, nor keep my trap shut about being in opposition, but I don't think THAT is what you meant, either. I am absolutely anti-Leftist (and, friend, Neo-Nazis, or even PAELO-Nazis, are LEFTISTS), and find everything about Obama's background completely opposed to every value I hold dear. 13th: Well, maybe they're not gonna shake our hand, fine. But Sadam WAS a threat, he was removed, and Iraq, the MidEast, and the world, are better off for it. Are we perfect and pure, motivated by the highest principles? Of course not, we're just as flawed as anyone else, but in the West, there are some huge differences: We support the concept of the individual BEFORE the collective, we (for the most part) tend to think you shouldn't get your head blown off your shoulders for disagreeing with the leadership or the majority, we tend to treat women on an equal footing as men, we try and provide a decent living infrastructure for our citizens, we try and avoid hopping off into the neighboring country to snag their assets, we try to bring up the standards of living of the poor, we tend to respect humanity and not just allow murderers to walk the streets snuffing anyone we want, etc. As for understanding the motivations of the guys we are fighting, let's see if I have it right: They want to kill anyone who disagrees with them, they want to wage a religious war against the "infidel" (just like their religion tells them to do), they have no problem living in ratbag poverty and seeing their kids with no future whatsoever, they take advantage of the weak and only respect being faced down with strength, they hate pigs, they hate women, should I go on? Heck, I know we're getting WAY off topic. As for "dropping the high moral ground crap", I agree with you, and I disagree with you. But the enemy we face DOES commit acts of cowardice that ARE despicable (Sadam's sons feeding eight year old kids into chipper shredders feet first, strapping suicide bomb vests on retarded kids and sending them into crowded marketplaces, parents cheering on their sons when they butcher innocent women and children, etc). No, you do make good points. No enemy is monolithic, monochromatic, nor monomotivated. But there ARE some basic differences between "us" and "them", and even in their societies, there are a good number of decent folks who would just like to be able to speak their minds without being killed, not have some freak talking their kid into suicide bombing a pizza parlor, own a house or a business, and actually see their societies live in a pretty peaceful environment. I am hoping that a free Iraq will be a light to some other Arab nations, and honestly want Iraq to succeed, not because it would help Republicans, not because it would help America, not because it would help the West. I would like it to succed because I want to see Iraqis have a future. I want a free Iraq to be the postwar Germany or Japan of the Middle East, and I think it has a good shot at becoming so. |
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Rob:
"Originally Posted by bropous ![]() we tend to treat women on an equal footing as men Kinda sorta....." Exactly, Rob, why I said we TEND to. We ain't all the way there, yet, but we should be. **** "We support the concept of the individual BEFORE the collective..." "Lie. We are a democracy. We support the majority's decision. It's one of the reasons I think there are a lot of problems with this country. We don't pay enough attention to the minority, because the majority is what counts." Incorrect. We are a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC, big difference, man. I would also strongly disagree that we don't pay enough attention to the minority, seems certain minorities are paid more attention to than they should be... "The saddest part is, that's not just the folks we're fighting... It's a lot of every day people over there too. They don't realize what life can be, so they choose to be resentful and bitter towards the West, who epitomizes modern extravagance. They don't want to better their lives (for the most part) they just want to watch the world burn." AGREED. You and I will NEVER agree on Israel though, nor on the value of freeing the Iraqi people, man, we'll let that lie undisturbed. You and I will agree on some things, Rob, and disagree vehemently on others, same as most folks here. But at least I won't be accusing someone of being a Nazi for their opinions, like some folks do. |
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Yeah, your reasoning reminds me of Johnny's Mum at his Passing out parade. "Oh look out of 2000 men our Johnny is the only one in step" I believe that it has been said in the world wide media that Obama has dealt with more problems in his first 100 days than any President since Roosevelt.... Not a bad start for a rabid, Muslim inspired, anti-American hippie. C'mon you're talking to adults here. |
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You say we pay too much attention to some minorities... Like who? Quote:
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"Yes, there is a difference, but the fact still remains that we hold the majority to be the "winner" in all fields."
Well, true, but the majority doesn't gain the right to silence the individual, they get to make the decision if they are the majority. Obama will slash the defense budget because he got the majority, doesn't mean I don't get to slam the guy for doing so (until Janet Napolitano's thugs find me on her list, ha!). "In Iraq, we are simply fighting those who hate the West... And will ALWAYS hate the West... It's an impossible war to win." Uh, Rob, in case you missed it: WE WON. IRAQ won. They have a stable, constitutional government elected by the people. Their death rates have been lower than some US cities. The War in Iraq was won, by the Iraqis and by the Coalition. Iraq is Free. Rob, you're oversimplifying on several levels. You know as well as I do that the Iraq War was NOT only about WMDs, but Husayn DID have them, 550 tons of yellowcake uranium was not there for chemotherapy. You are right, there were plenty of folks in Iraq we were fighting who hate(d) the West, but there are plenty of folks in Iraq who are HAPPY they are living in a free country now. Is it perfect? Hell, no. Would I want to live there? Hell, no. Are the Iraqi people better off not under the Ba'athist regime? Hell, YES. "..I agree that the Iraqi people living a free life and understanding what a modern life is like would be great [of COURSE you do, you're a decent guy], but they simply don't WANT to live that way [I'd say their elections and the development of the Iraqi Army proves otherwise]... They don't have the motivation to get off their butts and do something about it [see above]. They're perfectly content with having it handed to them by the United States [just like a lot of folks here in America who would prefer having Mommy Gummint handing them a living instead of getting off THEIR asses, people are people, man, good and bad in EVERY society], but they won't do it on their own [they have no choice, now], and the US can't afford a permanent military presence in Iraq [of COURSE we can]. Hell, I'd argue we can't afford NOT to have a permanent military presence in Iraq, and the Iraqis would prefer us to have permanent bases there just like we have STILL in Germany and Japan, and for the same reasons. An additional American base in the region is a stabilizing force, Rob. [I PROMISE no more off-topic statements. I'll try to find an Iraq War thread to revive, sorry for wandering off into the weeds, even though the topics are interrelated.] ![]() |
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