Discussion about Palestine

Do you have any official documentation that Jesus Existed?

I am reasonably easy to please I will accept Passport, Birth Certificate, Library Card, Credit Card anything with a photo and signature basically anything that will get him through an airport.

Other than that as you say and I quote:
Where are the links that prove ?

No links, no Jesus.
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How are you liking the obstructive style of arguing being applied to your claims?
 
Peaceful said:
According to the definition you gave, they are not a nation.
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Wrong,... or have you never heard of the Palestinian National Authority.

You can deny the truth, but you can't disprove it. You are merely a Zionist stooge making up lies as you go along. You main problem being, that they are so easily disproved.

First you say there is no Palestine, then you say Palestinians are not a nation, irrespective of the fact that this has no bearing on the debate you have been shown to be wrong on both occasions.
 
johnmacadam1 said:
enough with the zionazi rubbish. No one is a nazi here. Its just a bunch of people repeating the same argument they have had a hundred times before.

The more interesting argument ( or important if you are palestinian) is how would they create a level military / economic or political playing field? Should they accept what they can and make a treaty with Israel, on the grounds that in 50 years time they could be stronger and break the treaty. Every military strategy they have pursued has failed...
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Here is an op ed from the NYTimes I think applies...

Palestinian Civil Disobedience

By NICHOLAS KRISTOF My Sunday column is on an issue that has interested me for years: the possibility of Palestinians using nonviolent resistance on a massive scale to help change the political dynamic in the Middle East and achieve a two-state solution.
My interest in this strategy arises partly because I don’t see peace talks getting anywhere right now. One problem is that Prime Minister Netanyahu isn’t enthusiastic about a two-state solution and won’t make the concessions necessary for a deal. Another is that the Palestinians are split between Gaza and the West Bank, so there is no unified entity that can deliver all Palestinians. And while we know what the final deal would look like — the Clinton parameters, or the Geneva accord — the two sides are just too far apart right now. But maybe, just maybe, a non-violent resistance strategy would change the dynamic and make a political deal possible.

When I ask Palestinians about nonviolent civil disobedience, one common objection is that they tried this — the first intifada –and that their peaceful protests will be met with violence by settlers and security forces alike. That objection underscores how little people understand about nonviolent resistance. Compare the first intifada to Gandhi’s salt march or to King’s work in Selma, and they’re not remotely similar. Gandhi very carefully chose marchers who wouldn’t resist or fight back. His principle was that protesters shouldn’t even raise their arms to protect themselves when they were clubbed — and stone-throwing would have left him aghast.
Moreover, as Gandhi knew well, the violence suffered by peaceful protesters was part of what made the protests succeed. It was the sight of peaceful men and women lining up to be clubbed that outraged the world and led to the unraveling of the British empire. Gandhi spent years in British prisons, but he was a genius at public relations and new that nonviolence gave the protesters the high moral ground in ways that would transform the political process.
True, nonviolent protests didn’t work so well in Iran last year. But Israel is a democracy with huge numbers of television cameras all over. And I think American public opinion and a good chunk of Israeli public opinion would be moved by the sight of large numbers of peaceful protesters.


http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/10/palestinian-civil-disobedience/

Basically I suspect that the Palestinians are convinced that civil disobedience would just end up in them losing land without at least putting up a fight, I just don't think it would work when you are dealing with a parasitic nation like Israel.
The first aspect in all of this is to try and determine why the leadership of neither side wants peace, my guess is that the Palestinians do genuinely believe in their cause and as such finding a common ground with Israel is almost impossible.
Why Israel doesn't want peace is of course another argument, there is no doubt that they make all the right public statements about wanting it (but then so has every aggressive state throughout history) but then they keep on expanding settlements and borders which everyone knows will ensure there never is peace.
 
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johnmacadam1 said:
enough with the zionazi rubbish. No one is a nazi here.
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Bullsh!t!!! Don't talk drivel.
Many Jews and persons of Jewish descent (such as myself) and even Holocaust survivors can see the similarity between Zionism, particularly in Israel, and the policies of the Nazis. The one thing Zionists learned from the holocaust was how to emulate Nazi ethnocentric policy.

Hajo Meyer - Zionist Policy is Nazism
 
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there are no concentration camps, there is no kristalnacht and however imperfect the courts are in israel, they can still use them. There are also the billions of dollars of aid from the palestinians get from other arab countries and the un services which have been in operation for more than 50 years.

the palestinians are currently using semi non violent demonstrations on the west bank. But what would happen if youtube was flooded with vidoes of tel aviv or jerusalem or haifa or eilat filled with people just sitting in squares, blocking roads.

what if rush hour for tel aviv turned into 5 hours of traffic problems - every single day?
 
johnmacadam1 said:
enough with the zionazi rubbish. No one is a nazi here. Its just a bunch of people repeating the same argument they have had a hundred times before.

The more interesting argument ( or important if you are palestinian) is how would they create a level military / economic or political playing field? Should they accept what they can and make a treaty with Israel, on the grounds that in 50 years time they could be stronger and break the treaty. Every military strategy they have pursued has failed.

I am not a soldier but I don't understand why the military branch of hamas is so small, why don't they have mass conscription and require every male and female person to have 1 year's military training. I know its not easy to build an actual military, a recent military report I read said that they ( HAMAS) struggle to integrate more advanced military equipment into their military structures and tactics. Its not simply a case of acquiring anti tank weapons shore to ship missiles and SAMs from iran or syria.

I also don't understand why they don't pursue cyber warfare ( how hard is it to hack into banks, power grids and computer networks - not to steal but to disrupt - that by the way is an actual question)

Also why haven't they pursued non violent civil disobedience in Israel itself ie. 20 people driving their cars into tel aviv city centre, ripping out the engines and then just leaving them their or chaining people ( demonstrators) in large groups in key areas such as tourism. Or blocking key road networks with trucks or bridges. Alternatively filling the courts with vast numbers of law suits, whether in israel or suing in countries such as the usa or in europe - for anything and everything.
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You're completely out of your mind.
 
MontyB said:
Do you have any official documentation that Jesus Existed?

I am reasonably easy to please I will accept Passport, Birth Certificate, Library Card, Credit Card anything with a photo and signature basically anything that will get him through an airport.

Other than that as you say and I quote:


How are you liking the obstructive style of arguing being applied to your claims?
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No link, No Palestine.
 
senojekips said:
Wrong,... or have you never heard of the Palestinian National Authority.

You can deny the truth, but you can't disprove it. You are merely a Zionist stooge making up lies as you go along. You main problem being, that they are so easily disproved.

First you say there is no Palestine, then you say Palestinians are not a nation, irrespective of the fact that this has no bearing on the debate you have been shown to be wrong on both occasions.
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No link, No Palestine.
 
johnmacadam1 said:
there are no concentration camps, there is no kristalnacht and however imperfect the courts are in israel, they can still use them.
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Dispossession, harassment, beatings, gratuitous murder and indefinite detention without trial, and torture amount to the same.
 
johnmacadam1 said:
there are no concentration camps, there is no kristalnacht and however imperfect the courts are in israel, they can still use them. There are also the billions of dollars of aid from the palestinians get from other arab countries and the un services which have been in operation for more than 50 years.

the palestinians are currently using semi non violent demonstrations on the west bank. But what would happen if youtube was flooded with vidoes of tel aviv or jerusalem or haifa or eilat filled with people just sitting in squares, blocking roads.
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And how far has that got them?


what if rush hour for tel aviv turned into 5 hours of traffic problems - every single day?
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I think you are being somewhat naive I doubt a 5 year old Palestinian could ride a skateboard in Tel Aviv without either being arrested or shot.

Peaceful protests only work if the people you are protesting against need you in this case however all they want is you off your land and if they can achieve that without a fight all the better.

Essential the Israeli war is little more than a controlled land grab by a people who believe they are racially superior what could be more Nazi than that?
 
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MontyB said:
Here is an op ed from the NYTimes I think applies...

Palestinian Civil Disobedience

By NICHOLAS KRISTOF My Sunday column is on an issue that has interested me for years: the possibility of Palestinians using nonviolent resistance on a massive scale to help change the political dynamic in the Middle East and achieve a two-state solution.
My interest in this strategy arises partly because I don’t see peace talks getting anywhere right now. One problem is that Prime Minister Netanyahu isn’t enthusiastic about a two-state solution and won’t make the concessions necessary for a deal. Another is that the Palestinians are split between Gaza and the West Bank, so there is no unified entity that can deliver all Palestinians. And while we know what the final deal would look like — the Clinton parameters, or the Geneva accord — the two sides are just too far apart right now. But maybe, just maybe, a non-violent resistance strategy would change the dynamic and make a political deal possible.

When I ask Palestinians about nonviolent civil disobedience, one common objection is that they tried this — the first intifada –and that their peaceful protests will be met with violence by settlers and security forces alike. That objection underscores how little people understand about nonviolent resistance. Compare the first intifada to Gandhi’s salt march or to King’s work in Selma, and they’re not remotely similar. Gandhi very carefully chose marchers who wouldn’t resist or fight back. His principle was that protesters shouldn’t even raise their arms to protect themselves when they were clubbed — and stone-throwing would have left him aghast.
Moreover, as Gandhi knew well, the violence suffered by peaceful protesters was part of what made the protests succeed. It was the sight of peaceful men and women lining up to be clubbed that outraged the world and led to the unraveling of the British empire. Gandhi spent years in British prisons, but he was a genius at public relations and new that nonviolence gave the protesters the high moral ground in ways that would transform the political process.
True, nonviolent protests didn’t work so well in Iran last year. But Israel is a democracy with huge numbers of television cameras all over. And I think American public opinion and a good chunk of Israeli public opinion would be moved by the sight of large numbers of peaceful protesters.


http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/10/palestinian-civil-disobedience/

Basically I suspect that the Palestinians are convinced that civil disobedience would just end up in them losing land without at least putting up a fight, I just don't think it would work when you are dealing with a parasitic nation like Israel.
The first aspect in all of this is to try and determine why the leadership of neither side wants peace, my guess is that the Palestinians do genuinely believe in their cause and as such finding a common ground with Israel is almost impossible.
Why Israel doesn't want peace is of course another argument, there is no doubt that they make all the right public statements about wanting it (but then so has every aggressive state throughout history) but then they keep on expanding settlements and borders which everyone knows will ensure there never is peace.
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Non-Violent Palestinians ? :-D:-D:-D

From yesterday:
http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2...paign=Feed:+HellForLeather+(Hell+For+Leather)
 
senojekips said:
Bullsh!t!!! Don't talk drivel.
Many Jews and persons of Jewish descent (such as myself) and even Holocaust survivors can see the similarity between Zionism, particularly in Israel, and the policies of the Nazis. The one thing Zionists learned from the holocaust was how to emulate Nazi ethnocentric policy.

Hajo Meyer - Zionist Policy is Nazism
Click to expand...
How many Palestinians has Israel killed since Israel has re-formed (in 1948) ?
 
Palestinians clearly couldn't get into israel any more. However there are 1.2 million israeli arabs. some of whom I assume would be willing to act on behalf of the palestinians ( the failure of the palestinians to get the israeli arabs to identify with more with the palestinians than israel and act as well is another interesting issue)


as for me being out of my mind - for which part, a large guerilla army or non violent demonstrations in Israel


All of things you mentioned - the torture, the military courts do happen, but I am not sure you can compare them to nazi germany.

Another strand - what stops a rich arab billionaire buying up vast tracts of the privately owned land in israel as it comes on the commercial market in the same way that jewish american billionaires buy arab house in jerusalem?


And I am also aware that the semi non violent demonstrations in the west bank haven't always worked and have frequently resulted in people going to jail, especially when people are protesting are land being seized.

which leads me back to suing in foreign courts regarding the fact that the military courts are clearly unfair to palestinians.
 
johnmacadam1 said:
All of things you mentioned - the torture, the military courts do happen, but I am not sure you can compare them to nazi germany.
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Well,... Holocaust survivors can see it, I guess you just don't have enough knowledge on the subject to have an informed opinion.
 
Peaceful said:
Is the b******t comment above, the best you can do when asked "Prove there was a Palestinian nation" ? :roll:
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So you didn't read the two answers given below your post?

johnmacadam1 said:
why does the proving of a country matter? Does that mean it doesn't count?
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MontyB said:
I agree simply because the inhabitants of a region choose not to call it a country or nation does not negate the rights of the inhabitants to claim ownership.

Many of the former colonial states, New Zealand, Australia, Canada etc. are working toward addressing these issues constantly to come up with workable compromises.
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You see, it means your question means absolutely nothing as I have also stated several times.
 
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"why does the proving of a country matter? Does that mean it doesn't count?"

Yes, when you say Palestine is occupied, you have to show it's even a country.
else It's not occupied and whoever controls the area can do whatever they want.



"I agree simply because the inhabitants of a region choose not to call it a country or nation does not negate the rights of the inhabitants to claim ownership.

Many of the former colonial states, New Zealand, Australia, Canada etc. are working toward addressing these issues constantly to come up with workable compromises."

After the Hebrews were kicked out of Israel (when Jesus Christ lived), many people stole the land, now you call them Palestinians.

One can't simply steal land like those people people refer to as Palestinians did and do.
 
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