Well, there is a lot of unfair things.

Some armies give combat badges to their soldiers if they were under fire at some point... Like "oh a mortar round landed there on the hill, it's not very far, congratulations, you just gained a combat badge guys."

And some wars like the war in Iraq have no well defined front line... I say that everybody who drove a car in Baghdad, even if it's in the green zone, should get a combat badge. In fact, anyone who landed in Iraq or Afghanistan should be considered as a combat veteran.

It would be very sad to refuse a combat badge to a soldier or a Marine who had to patrol in Iraq, with the fear and the risk of taking a bullet,mortar round, IED that is constant all over the country, just because he wasnt really in an actual battle taking fire and returning fire...

If he didnt piss his pants and started running like a coward, he is good enough...

And in the other hand, there is people who were in actual combat who didnt have time to do much...

And what about the pilots in the air force? they are high in the sky, safe in their cockpits. We should wait until they are in a dogfight with another pilot or shot down by anti air in enemy territory to consider them as real veterans...

What the point of such a status? experience? courage? credibility? ... I dont see it.

All the guys I served with were multiple volunteers.
Airborne, Infantry, SF, and VN.
Most served several tours in direct combat positions in VN and subsequent actions.
Guys who asked for, and went into harms way on a regular basis.

I won't go so far as to say they were better soldiers, but they sure are the type I preferred to associate with.
I attend the conventions and most of us feel we have a common comfort of association and state of mind we are unable to share with outsiders.

Like previously posted-you won't get it unless you done it.

Personally speaking I think that any one that goes into the forces and wears the uniform regardless of what they do is worthy of respect. Yet those they get up front and personal with the enemy and have to kill or see there mates killed are they not worth an extra thought. They are the ones that lomg after they have left the Army they often wake up in the night screaming, or turn to the bottle to try and dull the memories of what they saw and often suffer from this for the rest of their lives. In my opinion for what it is worth these people are different from the ones in the rear that support them and yes they could not do their job with out that support.

I spoke with a man in Morocco who was a resistant, he fought the french and spanish trying to gain independence.

He said many things about the horrors of war. That he saw some terrible things. He went to war with his brothers, uncles, his father etc...
At that time, it was very tribal. They went to war with the people living next to them. They took rifles and knives and went to war together.

So the man lost members of his family in battle. People he grew up with. And yes, he expressed a lot of sadness. But I didnt notice any give away about nightmares, drinking problems or anything like that...

In fact, he expressed clearly that all time he knew exactly what was happening. He said that the only surprise he had was how scared he was. He was a proud young man who would never admit that he is scared of anyone... But once in combat, he had to deal with the fear of losing his life or the lives of the people who joined him.

I wont give you all the detail, but the conclusion I pulled from it is that when you know exactly what you are doing and what can happen, you wont lose your sanity whatever what you could see in battle.

It's my personal conclusion, but every time I tried to ask him (some language barriers I had to deal with) about how to deal with these traumatic experiences. he told me that everything you could see in war happens in times of war... You have to accept it.

If you are not ready to see a bullet go through the head of one of your people, well, stay home... You arent ready for war. You have to understand exactly what's going on.

And now it sounds obvious to me. Some psychiatrist tell their patient "Dont worry. you are too intelligent to turn crazy."

The military should invest in the education of the soldiers. The more educated they are, the more able to rationalize what they see, the more ready they will be in dealing with what they will see in the battlefield. Then it will be less suicides and smarter people in the uniforms.

Originally Posted by LeMask

Well, there is a lot of unfair things.

Some armies give combat badges to their soldiers if they were under fire at some point... Like "oh a mortar round landed there on the hill, it's not very far, congratulations, you just gained a combat badge guys."

And some wars like the war in Iraq have no well defined front line... I say that everybody who drove a car in Baghdad, even if it's in the green zone, should get a combat badge. In fact, anyone who landed in Iraq or Afghanistan should be considered as a combat veteran.

It would be very sad to refuse a combat badge to a soldier or a Marine who had to patrol in Iraq, with the fear and the risk of taking a bullet,mortar round, IED that is constant all over the country, just because he wasnt really in an actual battle taking fire and returning fire...

If he didnt piss his pants and started running like a coward, he is good enough...

And in the other hand, there is people who were in actual combat who didnt have time to do much...

And what about the pilots in the air force? they are high in the sky, safe in their cockpits. We should wait until they are in a dogfight with another pilot or shot down by anti air in enemy territory to consider them as real veterans...

What the point of such a status? experience? courage? credibility? ... I dont see it.

Uh no to the above. The CIB, CAB and CAR have a criteria for award and not evryone in country has been engaged or engaged despite the fact that they may have at some point left the wire. Just being in country does not and should not be the only criteria for a CIB,CAB or CAR.

Originally Posted by LeMask

I spoke with a man in Morocco who was a resistant, he fought the french and spanish trying to gain independence.

He said many things about the horrors of war. That he saw some terrible things. He went to war with his brothers, uncles, his father etc...
At that time, it was very tribal. They went to war with the people living next to them. They took rifles and knives and went to war together.

So the man lost members of his family in battle. People he grew up with. And yes, he expressed a lot of sadness. But I didnt notice any give away about nightmares, drinking problems or anything like that...

In fact, he expressed clearly that all time he knew exactly what was happening. He said that the only surprise he had was how scared he was. He was a proud young man who would never admit that he is scared of anyone... But once in combat, he had to deal with the fear of losing his life or the lives of the people who joined him.

I wont give you all the detail, but the conclusion I pulled from it is that when you know exactly what you are doing and what can happen, you wont lose your sanity whatever what you could see in battle.

It's my personal conclusion, but every time I tried to ask him (some language barriers I had to deal with) about how to deal with these traumatic experiences. he told me that everything you could see in war happens in times of war... You have to accept it.

If you are not ready to see a bullet go through the head of one of your people, well, stay home... You arent ready for war. You have to understand exactly what's going on.

And now it sounds obvious to me. Some psychiatrist tell their patient "Dont worry. you are too intelligent to turn crazy."

The military should invest in the education of the soldiers. The more educated they are, the more able to rationalize what they see, the more ready they will be in dealing with what they will see in the battlefield. Then it will be less suicides and smarter people in the uniforms.

No one is ready to see a bullet go through anything until they see it, and anyone that claims they are is either a moron or naive. You can decide.

The fact is, individuals handle the stresses and memories of combat operations differently. It is not because they were not prepared nor is it because they lacked the education and training for war. Rationalize what you see? There's a lot that cannot be rationalized in war and trying to rationalize it WILL make one go crazy.

You can't sit in a classroom, surf the internet, listen to stories, look at pictures and think you know a damn thing about war. It's something that has to be experienced.

You basically said that individuals that have problems dealing with what they've seen are neither smart nor mentally strong and well, that's just b******t, quite frankly.

Originally Posted by PJ24

No one is ready to see a bullet go through anything until they see it, and anyone that claims they are is either a moron or naive. You can decide.

The fact is, individuals handle the stresses and memories of combat operations differently. It is not because they were not prepared nor is it because they lacked the education and training for war. Rationalize what you see? There's a lot that cannot be rationalized in war and trying to rationalize it WILL make one go crazy.

You can't sit in a classroom, surf the internet, listen to stories, look at pictures and think you know a damn thing about war. It's something that has to be experienced.

You basically said that individuals that have problems dealing with what they've seen are neither smart nor mentally strong and well, that's just b******t, quite frankly.

But, but, but, in HALO 2

Well 03USMC, as an example, some say that the women soldiers are never sent to the front line. But the front line isnt well defined. In particular when it's a low intensity war where violence can spawn in an already secured area.

The risk of being hit or ambushed is constant. Even in the green zone, you can take a mortar round or a bullet from a sniper hiding in some buildings...

How can you say that you never been in harms way in such conditions? I say that they should see again the definition of the vet status.

And PJ24, some soldiers are more naive than others. Some go to war believing that it will be like a vacation... Join the big adventure, kill some bad guys and be a hero. While others are more pessimists, they join the battle thinking that it will be messy, that people will die and that they have to suffer and work hard to make it out of this hell hole.

Some think that they will be spared, or that their friends will be spared... others know that anything can happen, that they might die at any moment...

When I said "ready", I didnt mean that he will take it without flinching...

And I strongly believe that some men are like born ready for warfare. Religious people are on that list.

They see life and death differently... For some, death on the battlefield is the end of everything, while others see it as a stairway to heaven...

edit:
A little something about the vet status.
Some said that the biggest source of courage in the battlefield is fear. But a particular fear, the fear of shame. The fear to be seen as a coward.
Some military units build as part of the esprit de corp a sense of pride.

And maybe that the veteran status adds to the fear of being ashamed. They give you this status... And then you have "more to lose".

But as in these days, we have professional soldiers... retreating if the odds are really bad can be an option. There is no point in joining a battle you know you are going to lose...

What do you think guys?

Go look up the requirements and criteria for the award of the CAR and the CAB (I'll leave out the CIB since you mentioned women) the criteria is the same regardless of gender, if you meet the criteria you get the award, if you don't you don't.

Originally Posted by PJ24

No one is ready to see a bullet go through anything until they see it, and anyone that claims they are is either a moron or naive. You can decide.

The fact is, individuals handle the stresses and memories of combat operations differently. It is not because they were not prepared nor is it because they lacked the education and training for war. Rationalize what you see? There's a lot that cannot be rationalized in war and trying to rationalize it WILL make one go crazy.

You can't sit in a classroom, surf the internet, listen to stories, look at pictures and think you know a damn thing about war. It's something that has to be experienced.

You basically said that individuals that have problems dealing with what they've seen are neither smart nor mentally strong and well, that's just b******t, quite frankly.

Now that is the most eloquent and well thought out post I have seen in a while, I just hope it doesn´t fall on deaf ears(eyes).
I would probably have ended up with, "If you haven´t seen it, noone can explain it to you."

A smarter man then me once told me.
"A well trained soldier with a moving intellect capable of imagening anything is the deadliest thing we can put on the battlefield.
He will find a way to solve any problem with the assets at his disposal.
He will pay a higher price on the personal level then the soldier who just does what he is told without thinking because he can imagine the consequences of his actions to a higher degree.
But that is the type of man we need."

I dunno the older I get, the more this rings true.

FWIW.
//KJ.