WWII's Top Mistakes - Germany
The Cooler King
Godfather
Biggest Mistake...
Starting the war.
Starting the war.
MightyMacbeth
I am Honor
heh, yeah thats a good one^
biggest mistake? hmm, maybe Russia in a bad time.. Mostly that. And he needed to concentrate more on Britain. ANd his allie Italy? heh, was nothing..
biggest mistake? hmm, maybe Russia in a bad time.. Mostly that. And he needed to concentrate more on Britain. ANd his allie Italy? heh, was nothing..
LeEnfield
Active member
The biggest mistake was not finishing one operation before they started the next. If they had thrown there full weight at just on front rather than trying to take one on half dozen fronts at once then they might just had pulled things off. Just imagine what would have happened if Germany threw it full weight into North Africa and had taken all the oil fields in that area. It could have then brought Turkey into the War and attacked from the Crimea and from Europe when they went into Russia.
They commited three big mistakes:
- Postponed the battle in "Britain".
Germany had the military might to capture Britain through land invasion but they went for the second blunder (below).
- Attacked Soviet Union.
Lots of resources were used in war against SU but it was waste. If this war had not taken place then British would be defeated in African states too through heavy reinforcements to Rommel.
After this UK would not be a threat. And then Germany could proceed with invasion of Soviet Union but that too with assistance from Japan.
- Normandy Related.
And then Hitler sealed his fate with a 3rd mistake. He did not bothered about intelligence reports that Allied forces are planning invasion of France from Normandy and did not heavily fortified that region.
- Postponed the battle in "Britain".
Germany had the military might to capture Britain through land invasion but they went for the second blunder (below).
- Attacked Soviet Union.
Lots of resources were used in war against SU but it was waste. If this war had not taken place then British would be defeated in African states too through heavy reinforcements to Rommel.
After this UK would not be a threat. And then Germany could proceed with invasion of Soviet Union but that too with assistance from Japan.
- Normandy Related.
And then Hitler sealed his fate with a 3rd mistake. He did not bothered about intelligence reports that Allied forces are planning invasion of France from Normandy and did not heavily fortified that region.
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redcoat
Active member
They didn't have the military might that mattered.TBA_PAKI said:
Britain is an Island.
The Germans didn't have the naval forces to protect their invasion fleet from the Royal Navy.
While the Luftwaffe would have caused the RN serious casualties, it also wasn't powerful enough to stop the British fleet from reaching and destroying any invasion fleet.
There have been a number of joint Anglo-German Military Staff wargames post-war on this subject. In every wargame the end was the same, the invasion failed.
More resources couldn't be sent.
The OKH had actually looked into this before they sent Rommel to N.Africa. They found the due to the size of the ports and the logistical difficulties in getting supplies to this theater, they found that the maximum force that could be supplied in an advance to the Nile, was only 4 Motorised Divisions, which was the size of Rommels forces in 41-42.
Also defeat in North Africa while a major set-back wouldn't cause the defeat of Britain
Thanks to the deception campaign of the Allies, the German intelligence service was swamped with fake information. With the result that they didn't have a clue where the real invasion site was
tomtom22
Chief Engineer
Battlefield (i.e.specific battles, campaigns or operations)
Operation Barbarosa - a pure waste of men material and equipment
Non-Battlefield (i.e. production decisions, etc.)
Hitler's delay of Jet aircraft development
Political (alliances, promotions, demotions, etc.)
Not getting rid of Hitler.
Operation Barbarosa - a pure waste of men material and equipment
Non-Battlefield (i.e. production decisions, etc.)
Hitler's delay of Jet aircraft development
Political (alliances, promotions, demotions, etc.)
Not getting rid of Hitler.
The Cooler King
Godfather
A war with Russia was inevitable. It's either attack or be attacked.
Doppleganger
Active member
Here's my shout. There's a lot to choose from but the following is what I feel were the 3 worst decisions that Germany made in WW2.
Battlefield - War with the USSR was inveitable, given Hitler's own personal agenda. Therefore saying that war with the USSR was the biggest mistake is unrealistic. The biggest mistake the Germans made was not to halt the Wehrmacht on the line of the Dnieper River in October 1941 (as suggested to Hitler by Gerd von Rundstedt), when it had become clear that the original timescale of Barbarossa could not be met. Had they done this, they would have been able to get combat replacements, supplies (including winter uniforms), unit upgrades etc to the front. Battered units could have been cycled out for r and r and German units would have been able to dig in before the Soviet winter counter-offensive. Come Spring 1942, the German Army would have been deep in European Russia and in *much* better shape and really no further back than historically.
Non-Battlefield - Hitler's decision not to put German industry onto an immediate war footing with the outbreak of WW2. He was trying to keep German public opinion and morale high but this plan soon backfired. Hitler knew he was planning to attack the USSR. With the enormous industrial capablities of his enemies ranged against him getting German industry onto a war footing should have been a top priority.
Political - I have ignored political opportunities that never would have happened due to the nature of the Nazi Regime (like exploiting the goodwill of the Ukranians for example). Therefore, Hitler's biggest political mistake was probably the Declaration of War against the USA on December 11th, 1941. By doing this, Hitler virtually guaranteed direct US help for Great Britain. At the time, the USA had all they could handle with the Japanese. Had Hitler not declared war on them it's possible that the US may have been content just to send indirect help in the way of supplies and so on.
Battlefield - War with the USSR was inveitable, given Hitler's own personal agenda. Therefore saying that war with the USSR was the biggest mistake is unrealistic. The biggest mistake the Germans made was not to halt the Wehrmacht on the line of the Dnieper River in October 1941 (as suggested to Hitler by Gerd von Rundstedt), when it had become clear that the original timescale of Barbarossa could not be met. Had they done this, they would have been able to get combat replacements, supplies (including winter uniforms), unit upgrades etc to the front. Battered units could have been cycled out for r and r and German units would have been able to dig in before the Soviet winter counter-offensive. Come Spring 1942, the German Army would have been deep in European Russia and in *much* better shape and really no further back than historically.
Non-Battlefield - Hitler's decision not to put German industry onto an immediate war footing with the outbreak of WW2. He was trying to keep German public opinion and morale high but this plan soon backfired. Hitler knew he was planning to attack the USSR. With the enormous industrial capablities of his enemies ranged against him getting German industry onto a war footing should have been a top priority.
Political - I have ignored political opportunities that never would have happened due to the nature of the Nazi Regime (like exploiting the goodwill of the Ukranians for example). Therefore, Hitler's biggest political mistake was probably the Declaration of War against the USA on December 11th, 1941. By doing this, Hitler virtually guaranteed direct US help for Great Britain. At the time, the USA had all they could handle with the Japanese. Had Hitler not declared war on them it's possible that the US may have been content just to send indirect help in the way of supplies and so on.
1) The switch of the targets during the Battle of Brittain. If they would have continued to bomb military airfields, they would have had much more room to do as they please. Starting to bomb cities might have been psycological, but the fighter pilots became so much more determined.
2) Not sending in the infantry and cavalry at Dunkirque, but let Goebbels deal with them together with the Luftwaffe. This was their chance to wipe out the heart of the English army.
3) Delay the invasion of Russia because of their assault on the Balcans. This combined with not sending proper winter clothing was far far more deadly then the Russians were.
4) Delaying after the invasion of Normandy. If the reinforcements were send in with the Panthers and Tigers and battle hardened troops..... who knows what would have happened.
5) Hitler's prohibition for retreat in Russia. A flexible retreat would have safed many men and bought them time. Now it was a constant fight not to be gobbled up by the massive soviet forces...
6) No starting with mass production of the Stg 44 untill it was too late to be of decisive result.
2) Not sending in the infantry and cavalry at Dunkirque, but let Goebbels deal with them together with the Luftwaffe. This was their chance to wipe out the heart of the English army.
3) Delay the invasion of Russia because of their assault on the Balcans. This combined with not sending proper winter clothing was far far more deadly then the Russians were.
4) Delaying after the invasion of Normandy. If the reinforcements were send in with the Panthers and Tigers and battle hardened troops..... who knows what would have happened.
5) Hitler's prohibition for retreat in Russia. A flexible retreat would have safed many men and bought them time. Now it was a constant fight not to be gobbled up by the massive soviet forces...
6) No starting with mass production of the Stg 44 untill it was too late to be of decisive result.
Battlefield
I agree with those that say the decision by Hitler [made as far back as 1923] to invade Russia was by far Germany's biggest Mistake.
After all, that decision meant that the Werhmacht was brought to it's knees, the end of the ''thousand year Reich'' in a mere twelve years, and Hitler blowing his brains out.
Germany went from a position of complete dominance in Europe to a shattered nation in four years.
And the myriad of mistakes made along the way just compounded it.
Stalin was responsible for the perilous position Russia found its self in by the end of '41.
If Russia had a man with intestinal fortitude and backed men like Tukachesvky and Zhukov from the start, the war would not have taken the course it did, and possibly could have been over by 1940.
Somebody wrote that Russia may not have been invincible. But to the Germans of the 1940's, it more than likely was. The only thing that could defeat the Soviets were.... the Soviets themselves. If they gave up the will to fight, the Germans win. If they continue to fight for the liberation of their homeland, the Germans lose. Plain and simple.
If Hitler could have put aside his manic hatred of the Slavs and consolidated his position after the fall of France, who knows what the situation could be in Europe today....
Political
After the Werhmacht is defeated at Moscow, what does Hitler do? Declares war on the U.S.A.
Any slight hope Germany had from then on was gone, it was just a matter of how long.
I agree with those that say the decision by Hitler [made as far back as 1923] to invade Russia was by far Germany's biggest Mistake.
After all, that decision meant that the Werhmacht was brought to it's knees, the end of the ''thousand year Reich'' in a mere twelve years, and Hitler blowing his brains out.
Germany went from a position of complete dominance in Europe to a shattered nation in four years.
And the myriad of mistakes made along the way just compounded it.
Stalin was responsible for the perilous position Russia found its self in by the end of '41.
If Russia had a man with intestinal fortitude and backed men like Tukachesvky and Zhukov from the start, the war would not have taken the course it did, and possibly could have been over by 1940.
Somebody wrote that Russia may not have been invincible. But to the Germans of the 1940's, it more than likely was. The only thing that could defeat the Soviets were.... the Soviets themselves. If they gave up the will to fight, the Germans win. If they continue to fight for the liberation of their homeland, the Germans lose. Plain and simple.
If Hitler could have put aside his manic hatred of the Slavs and consolidated his position after the fall of France, who knows what the situation could be in Europe today....
Political
After the Werhmacht is defeated at Moscow, what does Hitler do? Declares war on the U.S.A.
Any slight hope Germany had from then on was gone, it was just a matter of how long.
boris116
Active member
Ashes said:
I wouldn't agree on that.
Unfortunately, Russia has become "invinsible" only when it has suffered so much in the first years of the war!
Their ideology and theories , as well as the most selebrated heroes of the pre-war era have not survived and were replaced by the more practical ones, the new leaders have emerged.
Their "corporate mentality" is much more resistant to change than one of the Western world, so they have to be pressed to and over the limit to start reinvent themselves.
Tuchachevsky has got an image of the visionary, but it is impossible to guarantee that he would become a hero of WWII if he lived past 1938.
A lot of Civil War heroes has become obsolete in WWII
Doppleganger
Active member
I think with hindsight it's easy to say that invading Russia was Hitler's greatest mistake. But I don't think Hitler had any choice really. The 'Soviet' situation would have to be dealt with at some point as I believe a war was inevitable. If Germany had not pre-emptively attacked Russia then Russia would have done so at some point but not in 1941 as Viktor Suvorov suggested. Again with hindsight 1941 was probably the best time for Germany to attack given the state of the Red Army. Had he delayed even a year the Soviet tank formations would have been in a measurably better state than historically. And besides given Hitler's personal agenda war with the Soviet Union was not only unavoidable, it was necessary.Ashes said:
In essence the rise of the Third Reich ensured that Europe did not turn completely communist red as it probably would have done so at some point. Once we accept that a Soviet-German war was unavoidable we then have to examine how the Germans could have won such a war. A one season campaign was completely unrealistic as history confirmed. A two season campaign may have worked much better as I suggested in a previous post.
There's no real evidence to suggest that the war would have been over in 1940 had the 1938 purges not taken place. Granted the Red Army would have had far better commanders in place initially, but Stalin would still have been there. The huge mistake that Josef made in ignoring intelligence warnings of an impending attack would still have been made and the Red Army would likely still have been as badly dispersed as historically. Even good commanders can do little about an impossible situation which is what most of the Red Army found themselves in on June 22nd 1941. There's no doubt that the Red Army may not have suffered some of the huge losses that they did (the encirclement at Kiev for example) but they still would have been pushed back historically as they were. The Red Army was in a period of transformation in 1941, a period that would have likely existed, purges or no purges. As Glantz stated they were in no position to either defend or attack. Boris116 made a good point in that it took 2 years of war and massive casualties to forge a 'new' Red Army that was capable of pushing the Germans back. Such an army could not have been forged by itself even if no purges had taken place.
Hitler got the timing pretty much spot on. It was just that the plan was faulty and hopelessly over-optimistic.
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Usefullidiot
Active member
Tut Tut Tut Fools!
All three categories are answered by two works: Adolf Hitler
Battlefield: Hitler WAS NOT A GENERAL, he wanted to be but his idea's were garbage. He delayed the attack on russia because he felt obliged to kill off 28% of yugoslavias population, then when he attacked russia he got his info wrong and instead of the 200 divisions he had estimated there were 360 divisions of enemies. Then he orders his men to stand still in freezing weather with russian soldiers running at them and loses most of his good veterans. If thats not enough he starts firing all his generals that have a personal opinion.
Non-Battlefield: When the war began he was so confident he never order full military production, even when he was being beating back by the russians he still only had 67% of the industry working on military production.
Political: He couldn't even get assassinated when he should of been, that's his biggest mistake of all. He could of saved Germany from being half controlled by soviet powers but instead he survives the assassination and believes that this means god wants him to continue the war so he does exactly that.
I hate hitler, the rest of the German generals were good though expecially Manstein and Guderian.
All three categories are answered by two works: Adolf Hitler
Battlefield: Hitler WAS NOT A GENERAL, he wanted to be but his idea's were garbage. He delayed the attack on russia because he felt obliged to kill off 28% of yugoslavias population, then when he attacked russia he got his info wrong and instead of the 200 divisions he had estimated there were 360 divisions of enemies. Then he orders his men to stand still in freezing weather with russian soldiers running at them and loses most of his good veterans. If thats not enough he starts firing all his generals that have a personal opinion.
Non-Battlefield: When the war began he was so confident he never order full military production, even when he was being beating back by the russians he still only had 67% of the industry working on military production.
Political: He couldn't even get assassinated when he should of been, that's his biggest mistake of all. He could of saved Germany from being half controlled by soviet powers but instead he survives the assassination and believes that this means god wants him to continue the war so he does exactly that.
I hate hitler, the rest of the German generals were good though expecially Manstein and Guderian.
Mohmar Deathstrike
Banned
Biggest mistakes:
1. Hating jews and other "non-aryans", which caused jewish scientists to flee and made Germany unable to rally Eastern Europeans against the Soviet Union
2. Invading Poland
3. Not trying to work out some kind of alliance with Britain, France and Japan for mutual protection against a potential Soviet invasion.
I've completely missed the topic, haven't I?
1. Hating jews and other "non-aryans", which caused jewish scientists to flee and made Germany unable to rally Eastern Europeans against the Soviet Union
2. Invading Poland
3. Not trying to work out some kind of alliance with Britain, France and Japan for mutual protection against a potential Soviet invasion.
I've completely missed the topic, haven't I?
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Hi doppleganger, just a few points on the theory that Stalin was going to attack West.
If memory serves me we debated that scenario briefly, and all I can do is stand by the arguments I made then that I don't think he would.
But perhaps I can add this for what it's worth.
Natually I agree that war between Germany and Russia was inevitable.
Because we know for a 'fact' what Hitler planned to do from 1923, and we know he put those plans into tragic reality.
The ''theory'' of Russia attacking probably started with the propaganda Goebbels spewed out. ''The Poles are killing Germans who live within the borders of Poland. The Czechs are doing the same thing in the Sudetenland, and the Bolsheviks must be stopped, we must save our kin, save Europe.
The old ''Tell them lies--and the bigger the lie, the more they'll believe it''
It was then further propergated by German writers, historians and Generals straight after the war to try and legitimise their attack, claiming Hitler had to invade Russia to save the whole of Europe from falling under the Bolshivik mantel, instead of it being Hitlers long planned genocidal rampage through Russia.
As Von Leeb said after the war ''we must get in first with our version of the war''
The Cold War perpeturated the myth that the Soviet Union had cunningly planned a strike against Germany in July 1941 and was planning to do so again, right up to the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Then more recently, others like V. Resun [Suvorov] jumped on the bandwagon and cashed in on the 'theory' that Russia was the aggressor rather than the victim in 1941.
And all this without any real evidence to back it up.
The way I read it, Hitler would take any risk to realize his manic obsession of a Nazi empire in the East, Stalins paranoia personality was the complete opposite, it was safety first [his] safety. His concern was consolidating his personal power and taking whatever scraps were handed to him or that he could pick up along the way.
Personally I think there was as much chance of the Soviets attacking Western Europe in the '40's as there was of them attacking during the cold war.
But who knows, I may be wrong and some solid evidence may turn up in the old Soviet archives, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
In essence the rise of the Third Reich ensured that Europe did not turn completely communist red as it probably would have done so at some point.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Heck Doppleganger, you're not suggesting that it was a good thing are you?
No, only kidding.
I'd hate to think Europe had to pay the horrific price it did at the hands of the Nazis, instead of some scenario that at some 'unkown' time in the future they ''may''become ''communist red.''
Dont know if you've seen any of the many History channel doco's, when after the collapse of ''the evil empire''many old Kremlin veterans were interviewed, some of them very high ranking officials and Generals, including ex KBG chiefs, and every one said that there was never any intent from Russia to ''over run Western Europe'' at any time, they say they were more concerned at not provoking Hitler, and after the war, were always apprehensive of a possible resurgent, rearmed Germany, and U.S. nuclear posture, [you could understand that one]
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Once we accept that a Soviet-German war was unavoidable we then have to examine how the Germans could have won such a war. A one season campaign was completely unrealistic as history confirmed. A two season campaign may have worked much better as I suggested in a previous post.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Which is fair enough, it makes for some good debate, doesn't it?
Well, the two season campaign could hardly have ended any worse then the one season campaign could it?
I suppose it comes down to.... do you think that the Nazis could have broken the will of the Russians before the second front kicked in?
If not I guess we're back to square one.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
There's no real evidence to suggest that the war would have been over in 1940 had the 1938 purges not taken place.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Perhaps I didn't explain that very well, what I meant by the war possibly being over by 1940 was what others have said on these threads, 'if' Stalin was planning to attack Germany, he had a perfect opportunity in '40 when the Germans had 90% of the Werhmacht locked in combat with France and Britain, and a total of 10 divisions facing the Red army's 150 plus divisions.
The Red army, as you say, was a mess at that time, but even so, with those odds, the Germans would hardly have been a speed bump for the Soviets, and there was nothing else but 3 divisions in Berlin to stop those Red divisions from easily taking the capital.
It would be interesting to work out how much of Germany would be overrun before the Germans could extricate divisions [or armies] from France to take them on, which of course would relieve the pressure on the French and British.
The war may possibly have been over then and there.
But unfortunately Stalin was too timid to budge an inch.
Probably hoped they would batter each other to death, and he could walk in and pick up the pieces, which was his way, thats just one of the many reasons I think that Stalin would never take on Germany, or any other major [or minor, after Finland for that matter] European power.
If memory serves me we debated that scenario briefly, and all I can do is stand by the arguments I made then that I don't think he would.
But perhaps I can add this for what it's worth.
Natually I agree that war between Germany and Russia was inevitable.
Because we know for a 'fact' what Hitler planned to do from 1923, and we know he put those plans into tragic reality.
The ''theory'' of Russia attacking probably started with the propaganda Goebbels spewed out. ''The Poles are killing Germans who live within the borders of Poland. The Czechs are doing the same thing in the Sudetenland, and the Bolsheviks must be stopped, we must save our kin, save Europe.
The old ''Tell them lies--and the bigger the lie, the more they'll believe it''
It was then further propergated by German writers, historians and Generals straight after the war to try and legitimise their attack, claiming Hitler had to invade Russia to save the whole of Europe from falling under the Bolshivik mantel, instead of it being Hitlers long planned genocidal rampage through Russia.
As Von Leeb said after the war ''we must get in first with our version of the war''
The Cold War perpeturated the myth that the Soviet Union had cunningly planned a strike against Germany in July 1941 and was planning to do so again, right up to the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Then more recently, others like V. Resun [Suvorov] jumped on the bandwagon and cashed in on the 'theory' that Russia was the aggressor rather than the victim in 1941.
And all this without any real evidence to back it up.
The way I read it, Hitler would take any risk to realize his manic obsession of a Nazi empire in the East, Stalins paranoia personality was the complete opposite, it was safety first [his] safety. His concern was consolidating his personal power and taking whatever scraps were handed to him or that he could pick up along the way.
Personally I think there was as much chance of the Soviets attacking Western Europe in the '40's as there was of them attacking during the cold war.
But who knows, I may be wrong and some solid evidence may turn up in the old Soviet archives, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
In essence the rise of the Third Reich ensured that Europe did not turn completely communist red as it probably would have done so at some point.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Heck Doppleganger, you're not suggesting that it was a good thing are you?
No, only kidding.
I'd hate to think Europe had to pay the horrific price it did at the hands of the Nazis, instead of some scenario that at some 'unkown' time in the future they ''may''become ''communist red.''
Dont know if you've seen any of the many History channel doco's, when after the collapse of ''the evil empire''many old Kremlin veterans were interviewed, some of them very high ranking officials and Generals, including ex KBG chiefs, and every one said that there was never any intent from Russia to ''over run Western Europe'' at any time, they say they were more concerned at not provoking Hitler, and after the war, were always apprehensive of a possible resurgent, rearmed Germany, and U.S. nuclear posture, [you could understand that one]
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Once we accept that a Soviet-German war was unavoidable we then have to examine how the Germans could have won such a war. A one season campaign was completely unrealistic as history confirmed. A two season campaign may have worked much better as I suggested in a previous post.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Which is fair enough, it makes for some good debate, doesn't it?
Well, the two season campaign could hardly have ended any worse then the one season campaign could it?
I suppose it comes down to.... do you think that the Nazis could have broken the will of the Russians before the second front kicked in?
If not I guess we're back to square one.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
There's no real evidence to suggest that the war would have been over in 1940 had the 1938 purges not taken place.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Perhaps I didn't explain that very well, what I meant by the war possibly being over by 1940 was what others have said on these threads, 'if' Stalin was planning to attack Germany, he had a perfect opportunity in '40 when the Germans had 90% of the Werhmacht locked in combat with France and Britain, and a total of 10 divisions facing the Red army's 150 plus divisions.
The Red army, as you say, was a mess at that time, but even so, with those odds, the Germans would hardly have been a speed bump for the Soviets, and there was nothing else but 3 divisions in Berlin to stop those Red divisions from easily taking the capital.
It would be interesting to work out how much of Germany would be overrun before the Germans could extricate divisions [or armies] from France to take them on, which of course would relieve the pressure on the French and British.
The war may possibly have been over then and there.
But unfortunately Stalin was too timid to budge an inch.
Probably hoped they would batter each other to death, and he could walk in and pick up the pieces, which was his way, thats just one of the many reasons I think that Stalin would never take on Germany, or any other major [or minor, after Finland for that matter] European power.