senojekips
Active member
I feel that your sentiments are admirable, however they are highly impractical in places like the middle east and Muslim strongholds as these people have a far different mindset to us.
The "war on terror" is a "mistake",
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
It seems hard enough to explain it to people and places where US presence is absolutely necessary.
Like in South Korea. Without American intelligence gathering capabilities, the raw fire power of the US Air Force and the Naval power and sealift capacity of the US Navy things could get extremely hard for us folks here. But even THEN people are screaming "death to America."
Drives me nuts.
Like in South Korea. Without American intelligence gathering capabilities, the raw fire power of the US Air Force and the Naval power and sealift capacity of the US Navy things could get extremely hard for us folks here. But even THEN people are screaming "death to America."
Drives me nuts.
03USMC
Active member
I'd say that the above is spot on in regards to the Middle East.
Partisan
Active member
I agree thawith you, but as I said, if it is part of the mission then nation building needs to be part of the equation, you cannot just stand off and bomb people into submission. To tackle terrorists in their backyard we need to bring the full capability to bear, using it like a knife, not like a club.
Terrorists groups will not fight by our rules, they know that they'll lose - that is their strength, along with the will to fight. We have the advantage of technology, money and trainingon our side. What has been lacking in the fight against terror groups, is the commitment to the long haul. I am impressed that the USA & UK stuck it out so long in Iraq and both have increased their presence in Afghanistan. Because it seems to have got the idea that failed nations are a fertile ground for terror groups to recruit, train and export their beliefs, so tackle it at the source, take the pain now for an easier life down the road.
That said the more we just accept the term "collateral damage" to describe civilian casualties, without questioning this; the more we help the terrorists, be they muslim, christian or martian.
Partisan
Active member
So why is that on this forum we coming back to Muslims as terrorists? Are they the only "Angry Ones" in this world?
All this we seem to end debating, is whther the West should be fighting Muslims or not!!
My argument is (& has been) a war in terror is impractical. Terror means different things to differernt people, but it ultimately involves coercion and violence to achieve political or economic objectives. These depend on the location and the level of education, healthcare, freedom & wealth. Religion is a factor for recruitment and possibly even the flash point for the start of the fight.
But at the end of the day you cannot have a broad sweeping "War" against what are essentially disparate groups. You might as well declare War on all blonde haired people who are left handed.
Govt's need to be more specific in what they are doing for us, in our name, not say we are going to sweep terrorism from the board - because I think that we all know that they are talking BS & thus the "war" is BS.
Missileer
Active member
Don't put words in my mouth chief. Look closely, I said RADICAL Muslims, not all Muslims. By the by, how far are you prepared to retreat?
Partisan
Active member
Missileer, I said in the forum - not just you, not trying to words in your mouth, I'm just scared that we start to think about terrorists as only Muslim.
As for how far I'm prepared to reatreat - it depends. If I need to trade space for time - I'd do it, if I identify critical ground, then hold it.
Who are the enemy, what are their tactics, capabilities, weapons, support, motives and strength? We cannot answer all of these questions by saying that they are muslim extremists, can do hit & run, IED & small scale skirmish, have lots of potential recruits, a muslim poulation, want to kill everyone, or everyone to be Muslim and have lots of people. How would you feel with that intsum? We need to be specific, not in only thought but action.
The generic war on terror presumes that each and every terror group has the same objective, so right and left wing terror groups exist? We narrow our focus not broaden it. Of course this requires more assets, but is the fight against terrorist groups a political sop or a realistic policy? If you don't understand your enemy how will you defeat it? Bomb it into the Stone Age? How are we different to a terrorist, to the innocent bystanders?
What really gets my goat is labelling, by the media and govts, to assure their audience that something is happening. Be specific!! If your govt says I'm going to give tax cuts, wouldn't you want to know the details? Who benefits, what are the benchmarks etc?
Damien435
Active member
I recently read a book called "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic Behind Suicide Bombings" or something like that, can't remember the exact title right now. As of 2005 the Tamil Tigers had used far more suicide bombings for their goals than any other groups and 2 out of every 3 attacks worldwide took place in secular conflicts (Iraq being considered secular). Having said that though, Islamists and Muslim Fundamentalists are the most vocal in their use of such tactics.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Recently two British soldiers were murdered by the Real IRA in Northern Ireland.
The Prime Minister is meeting Army commanders at Massereene military base in Antrim where two soldiers were murdered by Real IRA gunmen at the weekend.
He is also discussing the security situation with Northern Ireland Secretary Shaun Woodward and police Chief Constable Sir Hugh Orde.
Later he will hold talks with First Minister Peter Robinson and Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness at Stormont to urge the DUP and Sinn Fein representatives to stand united in the face of the dissident threat.
The two soldiers shot dead were wearing desert fatigues and just hours away from leaving for Afghanistan.
They were ambushed by terrorists firing automatic rifles as they were about to take delivery of pizzas before catching a flight to Helmand. The two soldiers have not been named but are expected to be identified later. They are believed to come from London and the Midlands.
The shootings, which rocked the peace process and shocked political representatives in Belfast, London and Dublin, left two other soldiers badly wounded. Two delivery men were also hit, one critically.
The Real IRA, which claimed responsibility, is the same organisation that killed 29 people, including a woman pregnant with twins, in the bombing of Omagh, Co Tyrone, in August 1998.
Security chiefs believe the gunmen were prepared to murder all six in front of the main gates of the Massereene Barracks at Antrim. At one stage the killers stood over their victims and fired a second volley.
Sir Hugh is set to meet his counterpart from the Irish republic later this week to discuss cross-border strategies to tackle the dissidents. The PSNI's top officer will meet Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy on Thursday.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Extremists who aren't terrorists are still a pain in the ass themselves. I see it often enough over here.
03USMC
Active member
Because of the terrorist organizations out there Radical Islam is the one thats exporting their brand of terror worldwide. You don't see FARC blowing themselves up in a McDonalds in the US, or Sendero Luminoso flying planes into buildings in London, or FALN holding protests across Europe. Most terror organizations are regional and while they may attack US or other targets with in the area they don't export terror. Radical Islam does.
They are also exporting their views into the School system here, my oldest son was forced to study Islam in History class last week, therefore I let him stay home from school last week. I'm dam sick and tired of everybody around here telling me I nee to be so friggin tolerant of Islam.
I don't tolerate ANY terrorist group, but now they're ramming this one down my kids throat. How in the hell can you call a war on terror a mistake, when they are now teaching it in our schools?
I don't tolerate ANY terrorist group, but now they're ramming this one down my kids throat. How in the hell can you call a war on terror a mistake, when they are now teaching it in our schools?
Partisan
Active member
Wolfen you are entitled to your views, but I would like to say that Islam is not a terrorist organisation. I don't want to turn this into a religious debate but Christian organisations are doing the same thing across the world. I'm an atheist, but I'm exposing my boys to all world religions, so that they can (hopefully) have a better understanding of other people, their background and where they are coming from.
03, yes they muslim fundamentalists are currently the most pernicious of terrorist groups and as you rightly point out most terror campaigns are regional in their scope, but they still have the ability to influence and affect other countries - especially western democracies (Niger Delta fighting for one). Radical Islam is a threat, but it isn't the only one. My point is that if we narrow our thoughts to dealing with just one "brand" of terror, we won't be checking the horizon for the next disaffected group that is coming along and will thus constantly be on the back foot.
Perhaps I'm arguing semantics, but the global war on terror is a mistake, because terrorist groups have different agendas. The only unifying factor is that they desire to disrupt the status quo, through violence and coercion. If we broadbrush the issue, we broadbrush the solution, which will never achieve any results. Check the article posted by BritinAfrica; the "real" IRA have been for quite a while. NI has been fairly peaceful since the Good Friday Agreements. after 30 years of internal struggle between various terrorist gangs. The negotiations between the GB govt & Sinn Fein were contraversial; seen by the public as giving in to the terrorists & a slur on the sacrifice of the many soldiers, policemen and civilians who were killed in this fight, but time has shown the wisdom of dialogue.
I have said it before and I will say it again, the military cannot create peace, they can only create the conditions for peace and help to enforce peace. Politicians must use these conditions to negotiate peace, that is their job. Unfortunately whilst creating the conditions, the police and soldiers have to place themselves in harms way - that is their job. Our job is to support those brave people and acknowledge their sacrifice and ensure that our politicians do everything to bring conflicts to an end, quickly but with long lasting peace, not serving their own political interests.
Off of my soapbox now, so over to you chaps.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
With reference to my previous post regarding the murder of two British soldiers by the Real IRA.
A policeman has been shot dead in what is being described as an "evil deed" by "terrorists" in Northern Ireland.
The dead police officer, who is yet to be named, was gunned down as he and a colleague investigated reports of suspicious behaviour in the Lismore Manor area of Craigavon, Co Armagh, on Monday night.
It is believed the dead man was an experienced officer who had been in the force for more than 20 years.
The killing came as tributes continue to pour in following the murders of two British soldiers on Saturday at the gates of Massereene Barracks in Antrim.
No-one has yet claimed responsibility for the latest shooting but the Real IRA said they carried out the killings on Saturday.
Politicians are already blaming dissident republicans for Monday's attack but Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) chief constable Sir Hugh Orde said it is too early to identify the killers.
Northern Ireland's First Minister Peter Robinson said: "This officer was serving his community at the time of the incident. I unreservedly condemn this evil deed.
"I am sickened at the attempts by terrorists to destabilise Northern Ireland. Those responsible for this murderous act will not be allowed to drag our Province back to the past."
Sir Hugh said the dead officer was going to the aid of a terrified woman when he was shot.
He added: "Let me be very clear. This will not put off me or my officers delivering the service we do to the communities we paid to protect. That will continue unrelenting as it has done in the threat that we have been facing for nine to 12 months."
A policeman has been shot dead in what is being described as an "evil deed" by "terrorists" in Northern Ireland.
The dead police officer, who is yet to be named, was gunned down as he and a colleague investigated reports of suspicious behaviour in the Lismore Manor area of Craigavon, Co Armagh, on Monday night.
It is believed the dead man was an experienced officer who had been in the force for more than 20 years.
The killing came as tributes continue to pour in following the murders of two British soldiers on Saturday at the gates of Massereene Barracks in Antrim.
No-one has yet claimed responsibility for the latest shooting but the Real IRA said they carried out the killings on Saturday.
Politicians are already blaming dissident republicans for Monday's attack but Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) chief constable Sir Hugh Orde said it is too early to identify the killers.
Northern Ireland's First Minister Peter Robinson said: "This officer was serving his community at the time of the incident. I unreservedly condemn this evil deed.
"I am sickened at the attempts by terrorists to destabilise Northern Ireland. Those responsible for this murderous act will not be allowed to drag our Province back to the past."
Sir Hugh said the dead officer was going to the aid of a terrified woman when he was shot.
He added: "Let me be very clear. This will not put off me or my officers delivering the service we do to the communities we paid to protect. That will continue unrelenting as it has done in the threat that we have been facing for nine to 12 months."
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Yes but the West still has this strange idea that "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" when in reality the "friend" is just as big a nutter as the guy he is fighting.
I think there has to be a break from the ideas of nation building to a position of letting these places find their own way no matter how distasteful and ludicrous it may be.
Partisan
Active member
You hit the nail on the head, just look how many of these sonsored groups are coming back to bite us in the rear.
However I have to disagree with your last statement, sometimes we just have to bite the bullet and step in for 3 reasons:
1. Strategic or economic reasons.
2. There is also the element of containment, stopping the rot from spreading further.
3. The other is to act as lightning rod, drawing the disaffected into 1 area, so that they are too busy to try and cause mischief elsewhere, a risky tactic, akin to the pegged out goat for a tiger hunt, it draws the tiger to you, but the goat doesn't often survive. Effectively this can be summed by Find, Fix & Strike.
Weer gonna be here for a while mate
cause you have a lot of typing to do to convince me since I know 54 manes on the Iraqi collation causality list, 1 from the U.S.S.Cole, 6 Marines form a barracks in Lebanon, And a friend who wheels himself around because of a man who attacked him in the name of Allah.Basically in 45 years I have yet to meet one in person who doesn't want to kill me
senojekips
Active member
We are as stupid as they are for even thinking that we can change the ways of a people who have a vastly different religious and moral philosophy to ourselves. We will have as much success as if they tried to change our ways to those of Islamic middle eastern countries.
For a good example look at the history of attempted external oppression in Afghanistan, it's always failed dismally and always for the same reasons. In fact, all we have done in 300 years is to reduce a country that was in a state of continual internal warfare into a country that is in a state of continuous internal warfare and external terrorism. Again we have shot ourselves in the foot, and our aiming point is getting higher
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