The German campaign of conquering Britain

You need to post a credible source.

I realize the importance of this subject. Instead of posting my current sources, which only cover dual-use sulphuric acid and perc use, I am going to write something more substantial -- something covering a wider range of CWC category IIs and IIIs in Iraq. I will post my results in another thread. I have to write on the subject, anyway.
 
I think we should get Del Boy back or this thread is going to go the same way as Ollie's argument..... Down the gurgler.
 
Loosen up there Ollie, you knew your argument was doomed to failure from day one.

A man with your education should have realised that's what happens when you try to defend the indefensible. Using the views of a few "experts' against the collective view of the rest of the sane world.
 
I think that the reason Germany could not take Britian is they were not willing to wait until the RAF gave way. Britian was not that strong and the Luftwaffe would have broke the RAF if they had just kept hammering Britian with air raid after air raid on airfields and industrial targets. It was a massive mistake to start attacking cities and wasting effort on senseless vandalism with no military benefit.

Britian would have fallen if they had just kept throwing blows at it. It was not a question of if but when Britian would break in the face of such a prolonged assault. Operation Sealion would have then been possible once the RAF had been destroyed. I don't think the British Army would have last long against the Wehrmacht. Britian would have been taken over and a puppet government installed. And then they would be no USA coming into the ETO. And Germany would be free to take the USSR on 1v1....
 
I think thats a slight under estimation of the state of the British armed forces.

1) Even had the RAF been severely beaten in the BoB it still had the advantage of being able to operate from bases further back at the very limit of the Luftwaffe's range thus indicating that the complete destruction of the RAF was never really an option.

2) The German navy did not have the capacity to land and supply sufficient quantities of troops as the bulk of their navy was at the bottom of Norwegian fjords.

3) Any landings would have been extremely risky as the Royal Navy was still extremely powerful and even in the absense of the RAF would still have been capable of causing extensive damage to landing zones.

4) Given that the German invasion of Norway was an extremely close run affair I am not convinced that British troops fighting on home soil against a German army with limited supply, armoured and air support would have been a the push over people seem to believe.

It is my belief that once the confusion of the Dunkirk evacuation was over Germany had no real chance of crossing the channel, essentially if they were ever going to get ashore in England they would have had to be sailing with the Dunkirk evacuees an unlikely scenario given the Sealion was not planned until after the fall of France.
 
I think that the reason Germany could not take Britian is they were not willing to wait until the RAF gave way
Just why would the RAF "give way", ... boredom perhaps, dry rot, or maybe Dutch elm disease? The longer the RAF were given the stronger they would have got, they were re-arming as fast as they could at that time. Waiting would have just delayed the inevitable, unless of course you know something about the German aircraft industry that no one else does.

And of course while the Germans were waiting, do you think that the RAF would have just sat on their hands and waited also?
 
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I think anyone making more than a cursory examination of the situation would conclude that it would be very difficult for the Germans to mount a successful invasion of England. I'm sure I've posted elsewhere in this rather long thread so I won't repeat myself. Suffice to say that whilst the Luftwaffe operation to gain air superiority was a serious effort, the rest of Germany's preparations were casual and half-hearted. Look at the priority given to the Z-Plan, Germany's heavy shipbuilding rolling plan for example.

A greater threat than an actual invasion would have been disruption and blockade of shipping lanes, plus the possibility that once Churchill left office, a less war-minded individual such as Lord Halifax would have been inclined to come to terms with Germany. The danger here would have been of a 'quisling' attitude being labeled at some members of the British leadership and indeed even at Britain as a nation.
 
screw you.
This reminds me of what my grandfather used to tell me under the shadow of the barrage balloons.

'To my God I speak Spanish

to my women I speak Italian

to my soldiers I speak French

to my horse I speak German.'


Achtung Ollie old chap.



Command the future, conquer the past.
 
I think that the reason Germany could not take Britian is they were not willing to wait until the RAF gave way. Britian was not that strong and the Luftwaffe would have broke the RAF if they had just kept hammering Britian with air raid after air raid on airfields and industrial targets. It was a massive mistake to start attacking cities and wasting effort on senseless vandalism with no military benefit.

Britian would have fallen if they had just kept throwing blows at it. It was not a question of if but when Britian would break in the face of such a prolonged assault. Operation Sealion would have then been possible once the RAF had been destroyed. I don't think the British Army would have last long against the Wehrmacht. Britian would have been taken over and a puppet government installed. And then they would be no USA coming into the ETO. And Germany would be free to take the USSR on 1v1....



******

You overlook the one vital aspect of the reality of history as it unfolded in fact, and this is whole point of the question of why Hitler failed in this quest. CHURCHILL. Winston had Herr Hitlers measure from the early 30s. ( read my posts) and not only did he have the confidence of holding the high moral ground, but he commanded the chess-board from start to finish and directed the course of events throughout. Simply a question of game, set and match.

Why did Hitler’s plan fail – CHURCHILL.




Command the future, conquer the past.
 
This reminds me of what my grandfather used to tell me under the shadow of the barrage balloons.

'To my God I speak Spanish

to my women I speak Italian

to my soldiers I speak French

to my horse I speak German.'


Achtung Ollie old chap.



Command the future, conquer the past.

Seriously folks is there no way we can simply drop the personal shots and just concentrate on the questions posed?

As I see it this thread has become so long and disjointed that it no longer has a purpose so how about breaking it up into a series of threads posing more relevant questions?

Along the lines of:
- Did Germany have plans to conquer Britian.
- What factors led to WW2.
- Is Ollie really Martin Bormann in disguise and posting from Brazil.
- Is Del Boy Churchill's love child.
- Did Grandpa Simpson really serve out the war as a cabaret singer in Berlin.
etc. etc.
(Disclaimer: You may notice that at least one of the above questions is not to be taken seriously)
 
Just why would the RAF "give way", ... boredom perhaps, dry rot, or maybe Dutch elm disease? The longer the RAF were given the stronger they would have got, they were re-arming as fast as they could at that time. Waiting would have just delayed the inevitable, unless of course you know something about the German aircraft industry that no one else does.

And of course while the Germans were waiting, do you think that the RAF would have just sat on their hands and waited also?

The thing is the RAF was not stronger than the Luftwaffe. However they did have the home field advantage. When a RAF pliot was shot down he landed on friendly ground and the pliot could return to base and just get another aircraft where as a German pliot would end up in a POW camp. However Germany could also come up with more advanced aircraft. The Focke-Wulf Fw 190 was considered superior aircraft to the Spitfire and that came out in 1941 after the Battle of Britian. And if the Battle of Britian had gone on longer you could see the ME 262 hitting the skies much sooner than it did in which case Britian has lost control of the sky for good.

As most of us know the Wehrmacht was much stronger than the British Army. The Panzer Divisions would have made short work of the Brits once they had landed. They would have been in London in no time once a beachhead had been etablished. Scotland would have been rather tough to take due to the fact it is very hilly and mountainous. I suspect Gebirgs-Dvisiontrained in the art fighting on such ground would be put into good use.
 
You still haven't said why you think the RAF would want to "give way".

Armed forces don't just give way, they either attack or defend, they must either win or be beaten. This is what happened with the RAF and Luftwaffe, and in that case the RAF won. The Luftwaffe didn't give way, they were beaten in the field of battle, or at least savaged to the point where they had a serious change of plans and decided to reform as a defensive rather than an offensive force.

I will not even attempt to answer your last paragraph in any detail, as it seems mainly based on wishful thinking. If things were as you state, why didn't the German forces do exactly as you say. Yes,.... if Herman Goering had a rectangular @sshole he could have sh!t bricks, but he didn't so he couldn't.

If is only a small word, but it most often takes reality and just turns it into wishful thinking.
 
This reminds me of what my grandfather used to tell me under the shadow of the barrage balloons.

'To my God I speak Spanish

to my women I speak Italian

to my soldiers I speak French

to my horse I speak German.'


Achtung Ollie old chap.
If that is meant as an insult to a German I think you've misunderstood the meaning of the quote, or perhaps your grandfather did. The quote was attributed to Charles V, who was amongst other things the Holy Roman Emperor (Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nationen) from 1530 to 1556. The Holy Roman Empire of course is often termed as being the '1st German Reich'. The quote is presumed to indicate how multi-lingual Charles V was required to be rather than being an insult to Germans, which of course would not make much sense seeing as he was their Emperor for some 26 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_V,_Holy_Roman_Emperor
 
does that stop it from being funny, though?

no.

The Switch from Airfields to Cities hurt the Luftwaffe and aided the RAF, giving them time to recuperate.
 
The thing is the RAF was not stronger than the Luftwaffe. However they did have the home field advantage. When a RAF pilot was shot down he landed on friendly ground and the pilot could return to base and just get another aircraft where as a German pilot would end up in a POW camp. However Germany could also come up with more advanced aircraft. The Focke-Wulf Fw 190 was considered superior aircraft to the Spitfire and that came out in 1941 after the Battle of Britain. And if the Battle of Britain had gone on longer you could see the ME 262 hitting the skies much sooner than it did in which case Britain has lost control of the sky for good.

The Spitfire did indeed lose control of the skies over the ill fated Deippe raid partly for this reason in 42. However, the situation was reversed in this case as was the situation in the 'Circus' raids over France around this time. The limited range of the Spitfire and the lack of radar would have been factors, as well as the need to adopt a defensive posture. However, throughout the war most aircraft were constantly being upgraded, and the final versions of the Spitfire with a top speed of over 450 mph were different animals than the earlier versions as used in the Battle of Britain (about 350 mph). The combination of factors (as well as the quality of the pilots) make it difficult to make simple comparisons. However the Spitfire is widely regarded as the only aircraft to have entered WW2 in 39, and with the exception of a short period around 42, had the ability to be upgraded so as to remain competitive until the end of the war. I doubt if the ME 262 could have made much impact in an invasion of Britain due to the development issues and lack of range, but this was much later anyway so we could equally speculate that Britain would have been armed to the teeth by this time.

As most of us know the Wehrmacht was much stronger than the British Army. The Panzer Divisions would have made short work of the Brits once they had landed. They would have been in London in no time once a beachhead had been etablished. Scotland would have been rather tough to take due to the fact it is very hilly and mountainous. I suspect Gebirgs-Dvisiontrained in the art fighting on such ground would be put into good use.

But as Monty and Doppleganger have so eloquently pointed out what of the Royal Navy? I may have mentioned this earlier in this thread but wargames had been subsequently played at Sandhurst (with Adolf Galand being involved) to examine the various scenarios of an invasion of Britain, and in all of them that I am aware of, the Germans manage to make a landing but are stopped well before getting far inland, partly due to logistics but also because the British Army were no pushover. These were not composed of old men and boys as depicted in Dads Army. These were the army which Hitler praised in defensive capability in Northern France during 1940. The retreat to the Dunkirk beaches was a consequence of the collapse of the weaker French corps to the South and supplies being cut off.
 
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If that is meant as an insult to a German I think you've misunderstood the meaning of the quote, or perhaps your grandfather did. The quote was attributed to Charles V, who was amongst other things the Holy Roman Emperor (Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nationen) from 1530 to 1556. The Holy Roman Empire of course is often termed as being the '1st German Reich'. The quote is presumed to indicate how multi-lingual Charles V was required to be rather than being an insult to Germans, which of course would not make much sense seeing as he was their Emperor for some 26 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_V,_Holy_Roman_Emperor


Yes indeed, it is a quote from Charles V, an old friend of my grandfathers, generations removed. And I did not intend it as an insult to Germany, but as a slight puncture to Ollie's pomposity and occasional vitriol. Good though, wasn't it.


Command the future, conquer the past.
 
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The Spitfire did indeed lose control of the skies over the ill fated Deippe raid partly for this reason in 42. However, the situation was reversed in this case as was the situation in the 'Circus' raids over France around this time. The limited range of the Spitfire and the lack of radar would have been factors, as well as the need to adopt a defensive posture. However, throughout the war most aircraft were constantly being upgraded, and the final versions of the Spitfire with a top speed of over 450 mph were different animals than the earlier versions as used in the Battle of Britain (about 350 mph). The combination of factors (as well as the quality of the pilots) make it difficult to make simple comparisons. However the Spitfire is widely regarded as the only aircraft to have entered WW2 in 39, and with the exception of a short period around 42, had the ability to be upgraded so as to remain competitive until the end of the war. I doubt if the ME 262 could have made much impact in an invasion of Britain due to the development issues and lack of range, but this was much later anyway so we could equally speculate that Britain would have been armed to the teeth by this time.



But as Monty and Doppleganger have so eloquently pointed out what of the Royal Navy? I may have mentioned this earlier in this thread but wargames had been subsequently played at Sandhurst (with Adolf Galand being involved) to examine the various scenarios of an invasion of Britain, and in all of them that I am aware of, the Germans manage to make a landing but are stopped well before getting far inland, partly due to logistics but also because the British Army were no pushover. These were not composed of old men and boys as depicted in Dads Army. These were the army which Hitler praised in defensive capability in Northern France during 1940. The retreat to the Dunkirk beaches was a consequence of the collapse of the weaker French corps to the South and supplies being cut off.

****

Indeed the Royal Navy held the key. And Dad's Army represented only the Home guard - but even these were yeomen of every village and held most vantage points and knew their territory; hand to hand and bayonet warfare training took place. the Dunkirk survivors, of which my step father was one, went back into training and strained to return to action.

Command the future, conquer the past.
 
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