Surrender
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Ah the anti British sentiment coming out again.
Not quite. Yamashita pounded on the table and demanded Percival surrender but he didn't say anything about being outnumbered.
Although Percy outnumbered the Japanese Singapore was being bombed quite heavily, the water reservoirs were destroyed as well as cutting off the supply of water from the Malayan mainland. The Royal Air Force Brewster Buffalo's were no match for the Japanese Zero fighters and were completey destroyed. The Royal Navy lost the Prince of Wales and Repulse as they were without aircover. I was stationed in Singapore and know the Island and its history quite well, Percival had no option but surrender.
If you are going to insult the British get your facts right.
Oh by the way, didn't US forces surrender to the Japanese on the Philippines?
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BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Absolute nonsense. The Japanese had air superiority for a start, they had resupply the British didn't, and as I stated water was running out. I don't care how good an army is they cannot fight without water. The British were equiped with out dated and completely useless equipment for that theater. The British and Commonwealth troops were being pushed back towards Singapore City daily.
You are completely aware of the hard facts concerning Singapore? I very much doubt it.
Yes it was the worst defeat in British history, the defeat can be laid at the feet of successive British governments for the failure between the wars to equip the military in the Far East with modern up to date wepons and equipment also there is the failure of senior British Officers to train British troops in jungle warfare. The Japanese were better trained and equiped at that time. I will agree Percival was the wrong man to command Singapore, he never carried out his orders as laid down by those above him. In the end he had no option but to surrender.
They were not called the "Forgotten Army" for nothing.
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You can't really compare this with the German surrender at Stalingrad. Paulus obeyed Hitler's order and fought to the bitter end. When they finally surrendered they were out of food and ammunition and were a pretty sorry lot. By this time it was impossible for them to link up with Manstein. The Germans took ~ 400 thousand killed and wounded and only 110 thousand surrendered. No fan of the Germans here but just setting the record straight.
brinktk
Active member
I think he was trying to point out that had the British forces known what was ahead of them in Japanese captivity, it may have been preferable to fight it out even with all the limitations.
Whether or not that is a reasonable assumption is up for debate...I think if I knew I was about to be captured by ISIS(or the Japanese of 1941/ Russians in 1943) I would rather take my chances dying on my own terms as opposed to execution, starvation, overwork, disease, gulag, freezing to death, torture or any number of ways you could die in these instances...of course, hindsight is 20/20...foresight is much more difficult.
Whether or not that is a reasonable assumption is up for debate...I think if I knew I was about to be captured by ISIS(or the Japanese of 1941/ Russians in 1943) I would rather take my chances dying on my own terms as opposed to execution, starvation, overwork, disease, gulag, freezing to death, torture or any number of ways you could die in these instances...of course, hindsight is 20/20...foresight is much more difficult.
In the case of the 6th army and parts of 4th panzer army at Stalingrad they had no food or ammunition left to fight with and were freezing and starving. Also the vast majority of them had already died or been wounded so only ~ 1/5 of the army actually surrendered. The fate of all POW's taken on the eastern front was very grim.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Much of the time that was the case in Burma after Japanese atrocities towards POW's became known. However, Percival had the civilian population of Singapore to consider not just the men and women under his command.
Many lessons were learned with the fall of Singapore, lessons that Orde Wingate learned and put to good use when he formed the Chindits. He proved that the Japanese were not super soldiers, they could be beaten and beat them they did.
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The Chiindits were excellent jungle fighters and caused the Japanese in Burma no end of troubles. They penetrated deep behind the lines blowing up bridges, outpost and railway lines. They outfought the Japanese in many actions deep in Burma where they caught the Japanese completely off guard.
This is not correct : it is the old German propaganda that faced by the choice between surrender to the Soviets and dying for the Führer,the German soldier preffered the the latter .
German strength on 15 october (including reinforcements til 3 february):
339009 men
a)not in the pocket (= not encircled) :156269
b) transported from the pocket : 16345
c) remaining in the pocket : 158630
d) not clarified : 7765
From those remaining in the pocket,some 91000 surrendered between 31 january and 3 february,and some 10000 surrendered before.
This means that the majority of the Germans who were encircled (b+ possibly d) surrendered to the Soviets and that a minority died .An unknown part of these were KIA,the others became DOW/died of illness.
Source = WWII stats ,abwicklungsstab group A Stalingrad.
WWII stats is using the official German sources (BA/MA) ,thus,one can consider these as reliable .
The number of German casualties was as I stated or higher.
http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/fascism_and_war/Stalingrad.htm
http://historyofrussia.org/battle-of-stalingrad-facts/
http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=3
Remington 1858
Active member
Yes, American forces did surrender in the Philippines, after holding out for five and half months, out of everything, ammunition, food, medical supplies. There was no disgrace in their surrender; anger, disappointment, shock but no disgrace. Churchill was aware of this when he heard of the fall of Singapore. He was in the White House visiting President Roosevelt. Churchill felt that they should have held out longer. There were clearly some leadership problems at Singapore and General Percival was not the only the wrong choice for command. Some of his subordinates let him down. They simply had never accepted the idea that Singapore could be attacked in the manner it was and by the Japanese, an adversary for whom they had contempt.
The civilians of Singapore suffered greatly under Japanese rule , many Singapore civilians blamed the British surrendering for the cause of their misery , many Filipinos blamed the Americans for they're plight , many American Soldiers felt the Filipinos were useless and could have done more .
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
It was believed that the Japanese would attack Singapore from the sea not from the Malayan mainland. Many senior officers held the belief that the jungle was impassable, the Japanese proved them wrong. Not only that, some British/Commonwealth troops put up hard fight along the road down to Singapore holding up the Japanese advance, the Japanese simply commandeered anything that would float and by passed the problem by sea.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
The Japanese were not out of food, ammunition or troops, even if they were they could have simply waited until supplies arrived. Percival was going no where, he had run out of water on the Island as well as food, and medical supplies, his defence line was shrinking daily. Many of the Japanese troops had fought in the Manchurian/Chinese campaign and were battle-hardened. Many of Percival’s 90,000 men had never seen combat.